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About denismcquadeno.eleven

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    Jags fan

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  1. To tell you the truth, this topic, other topics and just about everything to do with PTFC seems very unappealing right now. What reasons have we got for even giving a thought to any of them? Is PTFC even worth it any more? Not from where I am standing! * Fan ownership dead in the water. * 3BCS/PTFC Board exultant. * ‘The Puppets’ victorious. *TJF and fan ownership made obsolete. * Lied to and deceived by people who run the club. * Cheated by the people supposed to hold the shares on behalf of the fans of the club. * Fans not regarded as worth a candle or respect by those who colluded and connived to get the result they craved. Suddenly, ANYTHING seems a much more worthwhile thing to be doing than concerning myself with the business or fortunes of PTFC or anything at all connected to it!
  2. Getting ready to watch the very first episode of ‘Dr WHO’ with William Hartnell as the doctor. It was delayed by 22 seconds because of the news.
  3. Having now read TJF’s statement in full, the response to yesterday’s news, I would say I agree with virtually every bit of it, EXCEPT the ending. For it seems to suggest that TJF, though they will continue to question the PTFC Trust and board on various points, inconsistencies and other details now/in future, they are basically prepared to accept what has happened. It says, that the club need an independent supporters group and TJF would be a good match for that. Maybe they are, there’s perhaps not a better-qualified one around. But, is that IT? Are they not in favour of the fans taking any ‘action’ at all to show the board what those who support genuine fan ownership at PTFC think of this decision? They don’t even mention this. I just can’t make sense of this final response, if this is what TJF leadership really thinks. Every fan will have their own view and they must decide what they will do individually or/and collectively. If you agree with it, fine. But, IMO, not to do anything, will only sustain the Chair/Board and Trust, they were right to disregard the feelings or actions of the fans. It seems like going down without a fight to me.
  4. I think “the level of disregard they hold for individual supporters” is blatantly obvious! (I hate the word ‘customers’ where fans are concerned-we’re more than that. I prefer stakeholders, which is the term used by many who write about football teams’ supporters.) And, I wasn’t being facetious. I went on to explain why that question was never of any consequence in the Chair/board’s thinking/calculations. They, according to Alan Rough, wanted a way of putting the shares beyond reach of any future person or persons who would sell them to a buyer. (As with the Barnsley owner) Rough stated on the PLZ (Peter Martin) on-line show (sic) “They shares are safe now..nobody can get them..(meaning sell to a buyer who wants to take over the club)…the supporters don’t need to worry their heads about that or anything else…now.” In other words, THAT was the reason put forward to justify going through with the Chair/Board’s version of ‘fan ownership.’ WHEN the board decided they DIDN’T want the TJF version of fan ownership or any other model is open to conjecture. (By an existing board member close to JL) THAT is the reasoning,……. along with the facts (they don’t want to mention/ never mentioned by Rough) that they didn’t/don’t want to concede any of their power, lose any existing board members or add any new ones, have a mass democratic, accountable group having any say whatsoever in PTFC affairs or lose any of their own power or control of course!
  5. I think we could ask it, but (like many politicians) I don’t think they’d give a straight answer! In truth, their actions suggest they were/are unconcerned about existing models of genuine fan ownership. Whatever impression might have been have gained by others at the start, eg TJF, the fans, others, it’s pretty certain, when the Chair/ board understood what a fan ownership model meant, they ruled it out. They likely didn’t want a democratic mass organisation where the leadership could change due to accountability. They didn’t want to concede seats on the board. They certainly didn’t want to lose seats eg JL and her closest supporters. They wanted a tight organisation they could control-the five fits the bill-which would not be subject to change and would always defer to the board and what it wants. And, of course PTFC Trust obligingly didn’t ask for board representation. Thus, no real fan ownership, just a sham form of ‘ownership’ that keeps things in the same hands carrying on much as before. Of course, the PTFC Trust will produce some sort of perfunctory fan formula/relationship, so they can say they’re representing the fans. But, in terms of true fan ownership, it will all be a fraud, a sham, and certainly not REAL fan ownership, because that was seen to threaten the status quo. In the ‘Scottish Football Supporters’ Association’ words, “The way NOT to do fan ownership!”
  6. JL has never spoken to the media about this issue and it’s clear she won’t, unless she has too. The website statement which basically gives her view and that of the board said , “….matter …now settled and…we can focus on the football” She clearly wants no TJF involvement. The PTFC Trust clearly wants no TJF involvement. And, whilst the former doesn’t want a genuine fan ownership model, the latter has agreed to go along with that stance. That’s why they got the shares in the first place. Since they’ve collaborated together, they’ve made no attempt to consider, inform or work with TJF. They have sidelined TJF at every opportunity and they’re both happy with the result. If we understand that, everything they’re doing or have done makes sense from they’re point of view. They don’t care what the fans think, and in saying the matter is “settled” this leaves no room for tweaks, changes, modifications, or backtracking on anything. They’ve got what they want, without much trouble. They have decided to ride out any storm of opposition/ unhappiness, hoping it will all blow over, hoping the fans will be more absorbed with the team, matches and football matters on/off the park. And, crucially, hoping opposition will fizzle out. THAT, to me, feels like a reasonable summation/ assessment of what’s happened (from their point of view) based on all the available evidence. And, ‘evidence’ always carries more weight than speculation. Why would they change course now? Surely, after everything that’s happened over two and a half years, they’re not going to give ground on anything, (willingly!)) when what they’ve achieved has clearly been they’re long term aim and they’ve gone to so much trouble in doing so. The only questions are: a) What Will TJF say/do? b) What will the fans do? (Individually/collectively) c) (Most important) Is this the end of ANY chance of a genuine fan ownership model at PTFC? It certainly looks and feels very much like it, right now!
  7. You ‘think’. You don’t know. But, wouldn’t it have been better to …find out then that rules out any chance of …if only…in the weeks ahead?!! And, yes, it might not have changed the situation ‘one jot’, but it would have been good…to find out. A hypothesis can be interesting, but actually doing it..testing it…gives a result which is more clear and valid one way or another. But, I think everyone is now waiting for the response from TJF. Right now, there is nothing on their website.
  8. To be honest, I think it’s a bit unfair to bracket me with a person who has never been a member of TJF, who has openly admitted they don’t care about fan ownership particularly. I have supported fan ownership for years and used to write to the club about it-nil responses. I supported ‘Jags Forever’ at the very beginning and was in touch with someone involved in it. I always supported the idea of a group like TJF being the vehicle for majority ownership of the PTFC shares and I became a member. TJF fitted in with all my perceptions of what a group like that should be like. But, I resigned purely because I disagreed with them over tactics. Everything I have ever written on this site (about this subject) has been in support of genuine fan ownership. No one will find a single line against it written by me. I supported TJF until the time after the announcement was made that TJF wouldn’t be getting the shares. Because, from then on I didn’t agree with the way TJF was doing things. I didn’t know what they WERE doing to be honest. But, whatever they were doing, todays announcement is a hammer blow to those ‘plans’. (??) Now TJF must make a new plan, but still it might all be too little too late. I am not ashamed about anything I have said on this site on this issue. I supported real fan ownership and was consistent in that. I said this board should go, and look at what they’ve done today. I never received a single agreement heart for saying so. Little support for protest either, and look where we are now, with the ‘alternative’! I have stuck to my view(s) (though they seemed to be unpopular with many) because in the end (for me) genuine fan ownership is more important than any particular group, incl TJF. That’s what I care about most. They just happened to be ‘the only game in town’ to get fan ownership. But, ultimately they failed or have done so far… PS: I will say this about Lenzie Jag, he has engaged with me on this site, discussing fan ownership where many others who actually supported it (or said they did) never did. I have been put down on here for challenging TJF tactics as if TJF were the fount of all wisdom and their words were written in stone. This was ridiculous. Any ordinary member should be able to challenge the leadership of any organisation and the leadership should have to explain themselves. That’s part of the nature of leadership and democratic organisations. Being obsequious or sycophantic, thinking no one must ever question leaders is ridiculous. Healthy debate and challenge are healthy for any organisation. As a matter of fact, Lenzie Jag, helped to keep the subject of fan ownership a topical issue on here, whatever his views about it. Perhaps he knew this himself or didn’t, but I certainly did.
  9. There are no guarantees about many things, but protest was never tried, so no one can possibly say whether it would have worked or not. But, when people receive bad news they often think, ‘What could we have done? …done differently? I think protest, properly organised and coordinated would have had a chance of doing…something. As it was, there was little or no protest, the press went away. (They might have covered it had it happened after all.) TJF said they didn’t want to go down that road.. I think they gave the impression they preferred a ‘different way’ but we never had time to find out what that ‘way’ was. And, now we have today’s announcement. Who knows if the TJF members would have followed a call to protest. That was never signalled and so it never happened. They were never even asked. Most times, people want ‘to follow’ and are waiting for a lead. The leadership of TJF eschewed protest, so there was no lead from them, therefore no protest.
  10. Look, this isn’t about me, though several people on here want to make it so. The disapproval and negativity I receive, I ignore, (see LLD above, as an example.) This is about the people who run our club, and have been shown up in all their unpleasantness. I have written many emails to PTFC over recent years about matters with which I disagreed. I got not a single reply to any of them. I knew what that board was like longer than many, I.believe. I no longer subscribe to Jagzone, don’t buy Thistle shirts and other merchandise. I used to buy a lot! I can’t get to Firhill nowadays, so I can’t do anything about withdrawing ticket money. When you were busy signing up to (was it him) another poster’s exhortations to get more people to sign up to sponsor shirts, I inwardly winced. I would not have been doing that at that time, for sure. The management of PTFC are not very nice people, they have hoodwinked the fans. That’s yet another reality. I have been ‘a messenger’ with the bad news-that’s all. That bad news turned out to be true-as seen previously and today-don’t shoot the messenger!
  11. Well, yes, I did warn on here what was going on, quite some time ago as a matter of fact. But, if you think that gives me any pleasure to see my club of 60 years in this state, you’re mistaken. As for ‘illogical plans of action’ I think many might have cause now or in the future to regret that fans didn’t make any sort of organised protest. In many ways, the lack of doing so has played right into the board’s hands. We’ve had 800 members for a while. This board isn’t listening. They believe they don’t need to. They’ve gone ahead with their plans and finally, today sealed the deal and all…without much of a metaphorical shot fired against them. THAT’S the reality!
  12. But, why were TJF “limited in what they could do?” TJF ruled out any kind of protest at an early stage, that certainly limited their options and probably emboldened the other side.
  13. Counting the QP game, six games have been played, since that announcement was made by 3BCs/PTFC back in August. Perhaps TJF didn’t think things would proceed as fast as they have, but, unfortunately as with a) the ‘Not Fit & Proper’ announcement of 9 April, b) the announcement rejecting the overtures of the second (elected) TJF, now today’s statement from the board seems to have caught TJF on the hop again.
  14. Did that colour clash actually benefit St Mirren? Interesting one. But, why any teams wish to use grey as a colour for a football shirt, amazes me.