Versus Aberdeen

[Dark Passenger]

Hmmm...you don't get 3-5-2 do you?

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

Archie played Fraser wide left in an U21 game. I can certainly see the logic, we are overstocked in midfield and at the moment Amoo doesn't look like he can cut it. Fraser on the left has the ability to go past people, would be receiving the ball facing the entire pitch so his passing range would be useful, he can cross a ball well and would potentially be able to come inside and offer a goal threat. Will be interesting to see if he tries that experiment again at all.

[Dark Passenger]

Fraser on the left is one of the square pegs I mentioned.

[falklandal1]

Yep,played him wide left v St Johnstone,gave the pass for the goal,to be honest didn't think he looked comfortable in the role,pretty lost in fact.

[king of spain]

We are still trying to play the same way we did when we had SOD,Higgy,ATS etc and its clearly not working. He has to try change it to suit the squad we have now.

[La Scimmia Rossa]

fraser on the left is clearly temporary. At Hearts it was to fill a gap because of Lawless and Abdul missing. Last night we had Banzo and Welsh missing.

[Lindau]

 

 

I am running with the two boys.

 

I meant just the two boys and leave Frans and Seaborne on the bench. Two of them need a reality check!

[Norgethistle]

Going with current form Abdeen could pump us by 4 or 5 here

 

My money's on a 3-1 Jags victory in typical unpredictable Thistle style, with a brace from Stephenson

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Whether we win, lose or draw I want to see an improvement on the last few performances. The rot can't be allowed to set before the break.

 

Cerny

 

Hendry

Seabourne

Lindsay

 

Miller

Welsh

Osman

Bannigan

Booth

 

Lawless

 

Doolan

 

I feel the three at the back is out the window without Elliott down the right, unless from an away from home defensive point of view. I actually thought Miller was our best player in the first half last night but I feel as an effective wingback he'd leave a lot to be desired. Btw I'd go Frans-Hendry-Lindsay but I feel Archie will already know which threesome looks the better option. He did mention three at the back is something he's been contemplating but I think that was prior to Elliott's injury.

[Stewarty]

Cerny

Miller Frans Hendry Booth

Welsh Bannigan

McDaid Stevenson Lawless

Pogba

 

Either this or move Welsh forward and bring in Osman to play alongside Bannigan, with Stevo being rested. This would probably be more solid defensively but I'm a fan of Stevo and think some of the criticism of him has been a bit OTT recently.

[Dark Passenger]

Why play a right-footed centre half on the left when Lindsay's perfectly capable?

[La Scimmia Rossa]

Why play a right-footed centre half on the left when Lindsay's perfectly capable?

 

Frans and Lindsay for me. The more i think about Lady Isobel's point re bringing the ball from defence, the more i think we miss Balatoni

[jagfox]

 

 

Frans and Lindsay for me. The more i think about Lady Isobel's point re bringing the ball from defence,[ b] the more i think we miss Balatoni[/b]

 

We definetly do. Frans and Seaborne are stoppers but not good taking the ball out of defence. Lindsay may be the best out of our current 4 centre backs.

 

Sadly, due to a mixture of circumstances, we don't have a settled line up. Our run at the end of last season coincided with a settled back four with Osman and Bannigan sitting in front of them. I don't think even Archie knows our best starting XI due to injuries, players settling in and a general loss of confidence.

 

[ian_mac]

Lindsay and Hendry are the 2 best centre halves we've got at the moment. Seaborne and Frans have been very poor so far.

[Armand2]

I will always defend Archie and the team from some of the moronic - and that's what a lot of the post-Hearts stuff was despite the questioning by others of describing it as such - criticism that's been angled at them, not only this season so far but in years gone by. However, my defence of the manager from unwarranted abuse doesn't mean that I agree with his decisions unconditionally.

 

Archie has a tough, tough job; anyone who expected this season to be anything but a dogfight wasn't living in the real world. By most accounts, we're running on a smaller budget than previous seasons, we've lost a number of vitally important players who helped to keep us away from danger last year whilst the teams who we expect to compete with have managed to invest in their squads. If Archie manages to keep us up this season, it will surpass anything that the club has achieved during my time as a supporter.

 

The main criticism of Archie's management is his tactical inflexibility. We've had a number of pre-seasons to work on alternative systems yet only appear capable of playing 4-2-3-1. I know Archie is very keen on the whole club philosophy thing, having every age group playing the same formation, but I don't believe we have the personnel to play this system in the first team any more. It was utterly reliant on the quality of our full-backs - McNamara built this system on Sinclair and O'Donnell's athleticism and ability to overload and overlap on the flanks. We struggled on without Sinclair, replacing his attacking qualities with the more conservative but defensively superior McMillan until Booth arrived who is similar in some respects (let's just forget about Carroll and Keenan). But O'Donnell is as close to irreplaceable as can be; that flamboyance and energy from right-back was a massive feature of our play. He had the pace to recover so could sit higher up the pitch, was always available as an outball, always on the move to overlap, always a problem for the opposition to consider.

 

To replace that, we need to get bloody lucky and happen across another O'Donnell; otherwise we need to compromise. To date, we've done the latter; but if we are to persist with Miller whose defensive qualities I value, the system has to change. I think Miller is a standard, off-the-shelf full-back in a 4-4-2; his days as a wing-back are gone, I reckon, and you start to diminish his defensive skills by placing him further up the pitch.

 

Someone else made a decent point about missing Balatoni’s ability to bring the ball out of defence. Conrad wasn’t perfect by any stretch of the imagination but the way we play(ed) was ingrained. You would expect that when fit, Frans and Seaborne will form our first choice defensive pairing which is another nail in the 4-2-3-1 coffin as neither use the ball well enough to form the base of that system.

 

We’re also hamstrung by our attempts to shoehorn three central midfielders into the two available positions in this formation. Bannigan, Welsh and Osman all have their uses but if all three play, we have very limited options going forward. We’ve seen Bannigan deployed on the left this season, a position he should never play as it completely erodes his best asset in my opinion (ball retention) and Welsh in the central role in front of the two sitting midfielders, which again doesn’t suit because he drops so deep to pick up the ball. I think most would agree that when on form, all three players are amongst our best so it’s surely in our interests to find a system more accommodating for them.

 

All three of the above players tend to operate in our half which in turn leaves our more attacking players isolated. This kind of isolation has punctuated Archie’s time as manager. When he took over, we had to become a bit more conservative because if we hadn’t, we wouldn’t have won the league. But we’ve always had a guy who can link the play – Erskine then Higginbotham. When either were out, namely the latter last season, we encountered the same problems that we are now facing.

 

There’s been a lot of talk about Stevenson in the last week, whether he contributes enough, whether he’s still capable of playing at this level, whether he’s a closet Hearts fans; but I feel a bit sorry for him because he’s rarely played in what I would say is his best position. He’s not a striker – surely to God we’ve learned that now? – and he’s a tad too ham-fisted to play in the hole. His best and most fruitful spells in his career have come when he’s played on the right – and that’s where he should play.

 

So in conclusion, I think we have a number of players in our small squad who are capable of playing certain roles in certain formations but not in others. To repeat a word I used earlier, we really do seem intent on shoehorning individuals into a system that might not be maximising their abilities.

 

And ultimately, the responsibility for addressing this lies at the manager’s door.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Armand2

[Jaggernaut]

I will always defend Archie and the team from some of the moronic - and that's what a lot of the post-Hearts stuff was despite the questioning by others of describing it as such - criticism that's been angled at them, not only this season so far but in years gone by. However, my defence of the manager from unwarranted abuse doesn't mean that I agree with his decisions unconditionally.

 

Archie has a tough, tough job; anyone who expected this season to be anything but a dogfight wasn't living in the real world. By most accounts, we're running on a smaller budget than previous seasons, we've lost a number of vitally important players who helped to keep us away from danger last year whilst the teams who we expect to compete with have managed to invest in their squads. If Archie manages to keep us up this season, it will surpass anything that the club has achieved during my time as a supporter.

 

The main criticism of Archie's management is his tactical inflexibility. We've had a number of pre-seasons to work on alternative systems yet only appear capable of playing 4-2-3-1. I know Archie is very keen on the whole club philosophy thing, having every age group playing the same formation, but I don't believe we have the personnel to play this system in the first team any more. It was utterly reliant on the quality of our full-backs - McNamara built this system on Sinclair and O'Donnell's athleticism and ability to overload and overlap on the flanks. We struggled on without Sinclair, replacing his attacking qualities with the more conservative but defensively superior McMillan until Booth arrived who is similar in some respects (let's just forget about Carroll and Keenan). But O'Donnell is as close to irreplaceable as can be; that flamboyance and energy from right-back was a massive feature of our play. He had the pace to recover so could sit higher up the pitch, was always available as an outball, always on the move to overlap, always a problem for the opposition to consider.

 

To replace that, we need to get bloody lucky and happen across another O'Donnell; otherwise we need to compromise. To date, we've done the latter; but if we are to persist with Miller whose defensive qualities I value, the system has to change. I think Miller is a standard, off-the-shelf full-back in a 4-4-2; his days as a wing-back are gone, I reckon, and you start to diminish his defensive skills by placing him further up the pitch.

 

Someone else made a decent point about missing Balatoni’s ability to bring the ball out of defence. Conrad wasn’t perfect by any stretch of the imagination but the way we play(ed) was ingrained. You would expect that when fit, Frans and Seaborne will form our first choice defensive pairing which is another nail in the 4-2-3-1 coffin as neither use the ball well enough to form the base of that system.

 

We’re also hamstrung by our attempts to shoehorn three central midfielders into the two available positions in this formation. Bannigan, Welsh and Osman all have their uses but if all three play, we have very limited options going forward. We’ve seen Bannigan deployed on the left this season, a position he should never play as it completely erodes his best asset in my opinion (ball retention) and Welsh in the central role in front of the two sitting midfielders, which again doesn’t suit because he drops so deep to pick up the ball. I think most would agree that when on form, all three players are amongst our best so it’s surely in our interests to find a system more accommodating for them.

 

All three of the above players tend to operate in our half which in turn leaves our more attacking players isolated. This kind of isolation has punctuated Archie’s time as manager. When he took over, we had to become a bit more conservative because if we hadn’t, we wouldn’t have won the league. But we’ve always had a guy who can link the play – Erskine then Higginbotham. When either were out, namely the latter last season, we encountered the same problems that we are now facing.

 

There’s been a lot of talk about Stevenson in the last week, whether he contributes enough, whether he’s still capable of playing at this level, whether he’s a closet Hearts fans; but I feel a bit sorry for him because he’s rarely played in what I would say is his best position. He’s not a striker – surely to God we’ve learned that now? – and he’s a tad too ham-fisted to play in the hole. His best and most fruitful spells in his career have come when he’s played on the right – and that’s where he should play.

 

So in conclusion, I think we have a number of players in our small squad who are capable of playing certain roles in certain formations but not in others. To repeat a word I used earlier, we really do seem intent on shoehorning individuals into a system that might not be maximising their abilities.

 

And ultimately, the responsibility for addressing this lies at the manager’s door.

 

Far too much sense in all of that.

[angry gaz]

Very good post from Armand 2.

 

Without the pacy overlapping fullbacks we had a change of style and tactics is inevitable.My huge concern is that with a striker such as Pogba we revert to hoofballl .

Crossing the ball into a lone striker from very wide on the wing isn't effecive. One of our big problems is that dont get enough men in the box and the gap between the midfield and the forward.'. Our next signing has to be an effective attackin midfielder or a pacy attacking fullback.

If we dont get someone in for Saturday go for a very defensive line up and look for the counter attack. After the Falkirk game I'd bite Your hand off for 0-0.

Edited August 27, 2015 by angry gaz

[La Scimmia Rossa]

Sure we miss SoD and Balatoni but Miller and Lindsay are ok replacements. Steady but will do a job. The problem lies in front of them.

 

Welsh has given the manager a problem because he disrupts what was there last season.

 

I believe this is the problem with the tempo. His introduction has slowed down eveything.Not saying he's a poor player but i don't think he's good enough to displace Banzo or Abdul. He doesn't have the box to box eneregy of Craigen, nor the ability to get to the wide areas like Higgy and provide assists. So essentially we are changing the whole midfield dynamic to suit his inclusion. I'd rather we didn't. He should be a squad player and a replacement for Abdul/Banzo.

 

Stevo needs runners to get into spaces. Higgy and Lawless did this effectively(and SOD and Booth). If we can sign a Higgy type midfielder i think we would be set.

Edited August 27, 2015 by La Scimmia Rossa

[Willjag]

I reckon a lot of our problems so far this season have been a lacking in confidence and badly off form David Amoo. If he could hit a bit of form for a few games to get his confidence going, he could be the guy to provide the speed, and a few assists and goals we badly need at the moment

[potty trained]

Sure we miss SoD and Balatoni but Miller and Lindsay are ok replacements. Steady but will do a job. The problem lies in front of them.

 

Welsh has given the manager a problem because he disrupts what was there last season.

 

I believe this is the problem with the tempo. His introduction has slowed down eveything.Not saying he's a poor player but i don't think he's good enough to displace Banzo or Abdul. He doesn't have the box to box eneregy of Craigen, nor the ability to get to the wide areas like Higgy and provide assists. So essentially we are changing the whole midfield dynamic to suit his inclusion. I'd rather we didn't. He should be a squad player and a replacement for Abdul/Banzo.

 

Stevo needs runners to get into spaces. Higgy and Lawless did this effectively(and SOD and Booth). If we can sign a Higgy type midfielder i think we would be set.

 

I think Stevenson provides that in the no10 role... Providing folk are moving. Otherwise he's left creating space for Osman and Banzo to move into.

 

I was really frustrated with amoo during the week. Time and time again he had acres of space in front of him, he should be looking for Miller to be lobbing balls over the top, but instead he kept sitting, almost getting in the way of Miller or Stevenson who had the ball on the right.

 

At one point he took a shot through the middle Dools went out right and received a lovely pass. Instead of attacking the box to give Dools a cross, he went wide. Next thing we have four players out there and no out ball in the box. We had to roll it back and start again.

 

 

[Willjag]

 

I was really frustrated with amoo during the week. Time and time again he had acres of space in front of him, he should be looking for Miller to be lobbing balls over the top, but instead he kept sitting, almost getting in the way of Miller or Stevenson who had the ball on the right.

 

At one point he took a shot through the middle Dools went out right and received a lovely pass. Instead of attacking the box to give Dools a cross, he went wide. Next thing we have four players out there and no out ball in the box. We had to roll it back and start again.

It took Higgy until around Christmas in his first season to get used to our game. Maybe it needs Amoo time to settle as well? The big difference is that Higgy never looks to lack confidence.

[The Cup]

Could Amoo go on loan to a Championship team for 2 months to see if he can get some confidence?

 

He looks feart to try and beat someone. Even if he makes an arse of beating his man at least he tried.

[Paulo]

I actually think Welsh moves the ball much quicker and sharper through the middle than Osman does. I'd agree more with the view that our problems are more apparent in the wide areas. Lawless is being asked to cover much more when on the right this season. SOD would get up and down the line much more than Miller, and could get away with being caught upfield. Miller doesn't have the pace or awareness to do this, meaning Lawless hasn't got the same freedom to attack. Amoo has offered next to nothing and doesn't look like he's up for getting involved. I hope that changes.

 

I'd be tempted to try Lawless in the middle where he can receive the ball to feet and attack, with McDaid and Stevenson playing the wider positions. Still got an idea that we'd be light on defensive cover that way, but it might be worth a go.

[La Scimmia Rossa]

Paulo, you are possibly correct re Welsh and Abdul. Problem is that Abdul is there to break stuff up. A job he does pretty well. Welsh doesn't have that sort of strength . Or Height.

[Paulo]

Paulo, you are possibly correct re Welsh and Abdul. Problem is that Abdul is there to break stuff up. A job he does pretty well. Welsh doesn't have that sort of strength . Or Height.

 

Agreed. I think that's what makes it such a tough selection problem. Each player brings particular qualities to the position.