potty trained Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 But still use the 400k and the 600k as though it were factual... You'll forgive me for not being able to see through the glaring irony in your concerns of people treating baseless rumour as factual. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) Fawlty Towers is correct when he says it's the income and expenditure that are important. Income I thought away fans would drop off in season two. I didn't for one minute think the crowds of Aberdeen and Utd would be so pitiful compared to season 1. Nor did i see the car crash that Motherwell and St Mirren would become, so i'm a bit more forgiving when it comes to the club budgeting for away fans. There's also the question of TV games. Sure, you know the fixture list in advance but you can't predict which games will be on TV or the subsequent positive or negative impact that has. Then there's the question of the split. How do you budget for that? Bottom 6? How do you predict how you'll be playing? Guesswork? Home fans it always drops off in season 2 but if we go along with the 600 number (despite not knowing whether it's factual or what the breakdown is), could the BOD have reasonably seen that coming? The budget was also set against a backdrop of wanting to "kick on" in Year 2 and that required keeping some of the good performers and bringing in a stronger backbone of the side. The problem with budgets is if you know what you want to spend it on before you've calculated it, there's a tendency to be more optimistic so that you overstate things. It happens all the time in different businesses. So in summary, it's a little more complicated than just picking a number. The idea that some sort of fan based marketing campaign (fill the north stand?) would have made any significant difference is , fanciful. At best. Expenditure We handed out a number of contract renewals, presumably at a higher rate. This has to be done before you know whether your budgets are correct or not. You can't then revise the expenditure like a normal business, unless you pay up someone’s contract. And that costs cash. We also brought in a better quality of player in Abdul, Seabourne and Frans. They will certainly be more costly than what we had in year 1. In addition, Lyle Taylor's loan in Year 2 was likely to be more costly too? So without knowing the numbers, it's easy to see how budgets could be wrong. As for a loss this year and then doomsday. Equally, i could point to crowds being up in season 3 on last year and the squad being smaller . Or maybe we'll sell Hendry for a million quid and we'll be sorted for a few seasons. Survival in the SPFL is absolutely crucial to the future of PTFC. we are 5 years behind the main players with our youth-set up and we have no track record of delivery. Once that starts to produce-Lindsay looks like the first prospect- then the finances become a little easier. Until that point it's a combination of juggling, guesswork and a bit of luck. Edited September 1, 2015 by La Scimmia Rossa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlgarveJag Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) Facts and home truths... We attract fewer than the average number of home fans at games across the Premiership. We attract an above average attendance for games in the Championship. We currently have teams with fan bases that should be in the Premiership that are playing in the Championship. For those teams to re-join the Premiership teams currently have to leave the Premiership (one or maybe two this year at a time). Our fan base peaked at a time when when we were losing fewer games than we winning or drawing. The longer we stay in the Premiership the higher the probability that we reverse that trend and so lose the fair-weather supporter that is attracted to a team that loses less often than it wins or draws. The only way a long term stay in the Premiership and therefore stability at this club and many others will be possible is an expansion of the size of the top league. Beattie is spot on when he says the problem is Scottish Football as a whole. We are not alone. Scottish football is not presenting a comfortable environment for the majority on non-OF supporters where supporting your team is constantly about avoiding relegation followed by a struggle to return to the league of greed. Hearts and Hibs have proved that. It's time for a major change. Edited September 1, 2015 by AlgarveJag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 So in summary, we haven't made a loss of 400k and we have no idea if the drop in crowds by 600 is accurate? That sounds very Thistle-esque A drop of 600 home fans was the number that the Club announced. Maybe it was over-egged as a sales pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 A drop of 600 home fans was the number that the Club announced. Maybe it was over-egged as a sales pitch. Possibly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Maybe it's 600 kids and there's no loss, in that regard. we just don't know and until we know, we shouldn't be discussing it. Am I doing it right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Your mate Ian tried that on the other thread. Went down well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted September 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 Your mate Ian tried that on the other thread. Went down well. Just highlighting inconsistencies. It's very hard to keep up with new guides to posting that seem to be introduced on a daily basis. I never know which subjects you've approved for discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Scimmia Rossa Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatnallyjag Posted September 1, 2015 Report Share Posted September 1, 2015 seriously can't understand the pelters folk are giving the board on this thread, crowd on saturday was just shy of 5k and there were more Dons than Jags. If you seriously think the board should be cutting the cloth accordingly to avoid loses then lets look forward to being mid level championship standard next season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 So I heard either on here or the FB forum that there used to be a shared gate policy for league games, not just cup ties. I wrote the SPFL general inbox and asked why that policy went away and if it would be reconsidered for reinstatement; the Old Firm would be most likely to take an upfront hit, but it's a hit they could manage. The extra revenue for smaller clubs would allow them to draw back bigger crowds by improving the matchday experience, improving facilities, signing better quality players to keep games more competitive across the board, making the competition for the league title a little less farcical, and maybe keeping John Collins' trap shut as a side bonus. No team should be playing Celtic with the game plan of "best case scenario, we come away with a point." That's bull****, and even the lowest budget teams in the EPL can beat the highest budget teams. I'm sure many of the lapsed fans throughout Scotland have come to this realization long ago. Anyway, the response from a fellow named David was something like, "It's not something we're considering at this time..." So I have a lot of sympathy for our Board, or any non-OF board really, because the league seems to be offering no help and doesn't seem to have any ideas. And I feel like the solution is that we're going to have to try things no other club is trying. We really built off our "alternative" status this summer with the Kingsford/Shrigley relationship, and it brought us some great attention. I feel like maybe there's something in continuing down the road in the style of a club like Dulwich Hamlet, who seem to be trying hard - and succeeding - at differentiating themselves. We just need our marketing team to think weird and maximize the potential of the Kingsley character too. He's immediately recognizable, and we should be producing more Kingsley videos. From a more traditional standpoint, maybe we can partner with other "alternative" clubs like Glasgow Rocks and Braehead Clan and offer their season ticket holders free admission to select games or something? One thing is for certain - bringing back a fan-based initiative like OneThistle seems like a no-brainer here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted September 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 If you seriously think the board should be cutting the cloth accordingly to avoid loses then lets look forward to being mid level championship standard next season I'd rather have a mid table Championship team to watch, than no team to watch at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 I'd rather have a mid table Championship team to watch, than no team to watch at all. True Plus I'd rather see normal sized leagues where even a scaled down Jags could still aspire to the top tier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlgarveJag Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) I'd rather have a mid table Championship team to watch, than no team to watch at all. True Plus I'd rather see normal sized leagues where even a scaled down Jags could still aspire to the top tier. …and there's the reality. Our attendance numbers peaked, not surprisingly when we were punching in our own weight category challenging for promotion and starting life with the Heavyweights but the truth is that the current set up doesn't do clubs the weight of ours any favours. The same is true for Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Morton, Falkirk etc. etc. etc. etc. I'm not convinced that Aberdeen and Hearts are really any better off either. I get pelters on here whenever I suggest that our target should be to be winning the Championship on a regular basis and refusing promotion when it happens. Apparently that's not the ambition that I should have for my club. However, I'm with PT and LIB when it comes to the fact that I'd rather have a Championship side to support than no team at all and the Premiership just feels like walking into a playground of overaged, oversized bullies where the outcome is inevitable. If you want the pain to stop then stop hitting your head off the bloody wall Edited September 2, 2015 by AlgarveJag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 …and there's the reality. Our attendance numbers peaked, not surprisingly when we were punching in our own weight category challenging for promotion and starting life with the Heavyweights but the truth is that the current set up doesn't do clubs the weight of ours any favours. The same is true for Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Morton, Falkirk etc. etc. etc. etc. I'm not convinced that Aberdeen and Hearts are really any better off either. I get pelters on here whenever I suggest that our target should be to be winning the Championship on a regular basis and refusing promotion when it happens. Apparently that's not the ambition that I should have for my club. However, I'm with PT and LIB when it comes to the fact that I'd rather have a Championship side to support than no team at all and the Premiership just feels like walking into a playground of overaged, oversized bullies where the outcome is inevitable. If you want the pain to stop then stop hitting your head off the bloody wall I don't think that any club would ever knock back promotion. That said, you have a point. Attendances suggest that there are a lot of fans who aren't happy to see us struggling in the top league and would rather see us winning most weeks at a lower level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 crowd on saturday was just shy of 5k and there were more Dons than Jags. There were not more Aberdeen fans than Jags fans at Firhill on Saturday. The Main Stand holds about 2000 people and it wasn't completely full. The attendance was 4940, which means at the worst, there were nearly 1000 more Thistle fans than Aberdeen fans. The turnout at the North Stand was certainly low, but people keep forgetting even a half empty JHS comfortably outnumbers all away supports outside Celtic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowenBoys Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 I don't think that any club would ever knock back promotion. That said, you have a point. Attendances suggest that there are a lot of fans who aren't happy to see us struggling in the top league and would rather see us winning most weeks at a lower level. Unless we're playing Falkirk. Or Jailco? Or Hibs? There are no guarantees of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 Right, so you want us to win the division below and then refuse to play in the top flight? ******* hell, that's literally the stupidest thing I've ever read on here. Yeah why don't we show all players and fans that we're a club with absolutely no ambition to progress itself whatsoever, that'll look good. Do you really think players good enough to challenge for the Championship/First Division title and then play in the premiership (as they would have to be) if they knew that club would just stay in the same division regardless of how well they did? It wouldn't end up with us challenging for the title every year, it would end with us being a championship/league 1 yo-yo joke a la Ayr United, at best. Add to the fact it wouldn't work anyway that it flies in the face of the whole spirit of competitiveness and that in my experience, fans want to see their club at the highest level possible to mix with the big boys rather than playing part time dross every week and it really is a ludicrous suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 ******* hell, that's literally the stupidest thing I've ever read on here. You won't be able to read this then. You've clearly got me on "ignore" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlgarveJag Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 …and here come the pelters. OTG of course it's not a serious suggestion but I'm also certain it's not the stupidest thing you've ever read on here as you've been around here for a long time and the forum attracts it's fair share of stupidity . And I don't know if you've noticed but we do already find it difficult to find and attract players capable of winning a Championship and then mounting a serious challenge for the Premiership. That's my point, thank you for highlighting it. There are a couple of big boys that dominate all the toys in the playground and all the others have to look forward to in reality is either getting to 'hang out' with them at the top of the playground like the proverbial 'popular kids' or scrap to avoid being thrown out every year from the other half. And finally, your notion that "fans want to see their club at the highest level possible to mix with the big boys…", certainly isn't being evidenced by those fans turning out in greater numbers. The reverse is true. Fans want to see their team wining and drawing more games than they lose. That can't happen for 99% of Scottish football clubs 99% of the time while we have league where the only real interest is in who will survive the drop without going to the wall first. Ask a Motherwell or Dundee fan if they enjoyed the success that almost cost them their club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 …and there's the reality. Our attendance numbers peaked, not surprisingly when we were punching in our own weight category challenging for promotion and starting life with the Heavyweights but the truth is that the current set up doesn't do clubs the weight of ours any favours. The same is true for Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Morton, Falkirk etc. etc. etc. etc. I'm not convinced that Aberdeen and Hearts are really any better off either. I get pelters on here whenever I suggest that our target should be to be winning the Championship on a regular basis and refusing promotion when it happens. Apparently that's not the ambition that I should have for my club. However, I'm with PT and LIB when it comes to the fact that I'd rather have a Championship side to support than no team at all and the Premiership just feels like walking into a playground of overaged, oversized bullies where the outcome is inevitable. If you want the pain to stop then stop hitting your head off the bloody wall seen various ns fans bang their heads off the back wall with apparent increasing regularity, may try it sometime myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 I know that no one ever agrees with me on this but anyway... The fact that we and others get bigger crowds when challenging at the top of the Championship rather than struggling in the Premiership is a good advert for the smaller leagues and the (almost inevitable) relegation and promotion that goes with it, and we shouldn't get so hung up about a larger top tier which would make us "safer". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 There were not more Aberdeen fans than Jags fans at Firhill on Saturday. The Main Stand holds about 2000 people and it wasn't completely full. The attendance was 4940, which means at the worst, there were nearly 1000 more Thistle fans than Aberdeen fans. The turnout at the North Stand was certainly low, but people keep forgetting even a half empty JHS comfortably outnumbers all away supports outside Celtic. technically, you are correct. there were more jags fans than dons fans. just. 2462 dons. that means 16 more jags. not "nearly 1000" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlgarveJag Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 fair point allyo but I think it risks financial disaster when clubs attempt to paddle upstream with unrealistic expectation. I'm a glass half full kinda guy and I've been in sales all my working life so I'm used to setting goals and target and always striving for bigger and better but one of the first rules of target setting is that it MUST be achievable. Fair competition in the current set up is just not possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda-jag Posted September 2, 2015 Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 ******* hell, that's literally the stupidest thing I've ever read on here. you can't have been reading much on here lately then. or the past how ever many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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