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Message added by douglas clark

'Tis not the job of a moderator to stop people writing here. The rules are pretty simple:

reported ad hominem attacks will be investigated (and if found to be true) or write stuff that could get the site into trouble

and you'll either be warned / your post deleted, or - worst case scenario -  banned either temporarily or permanently.

This particular thread has had a vigorous exchange of views, and perhaps more heat than light. But the quality of the debate - it seems to me at least - is down to the lack of information.  That, in and of itself, means that whatever side you happen to be on is for a fan, very frustrating.

So, I have no intention of closing threads just because the quality of the postings isn't great. That is not the role of a moderator.

If you wake up the following morning you can always delete something you wish you'd never said.

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, javeajag said:

Struggle to see how you get to £10-12m

say £2-4m for the shareholders and £1-2m for propco gets you between £3-6m which seems more realistic 

That’s why I added in maybe JJ is expecting Colin Weir to build and gift the training  ground as well. Where the £10-12m quote comes from is anyone’s guess!!

Edited by Lindau
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3 hours ago, Dark Passenger said:

If the sellers are in line to receive £10m cumulatively for their shares (I appreciate a Propco buy-out has also been mooted), then I struggle to believe that *any* of them have made a loss.

Btw...I'd expect *every* potential board member to be vetted, regardless of their apparent credentials or whoever owns the club.

Including Shares Propco - the Academy its circa £12MN of a Committment from Colin Weir to a Group of people he knows nothing about - yet managed to make direct contact  when the currebt Board couldnt get near him ? Dont you find that just ever so slightly strange ?  

As for Vetting who is doing the Vetting TFE - the elected Board - what qaulifications to they have to Vet someone in Business - what Compentant Business Person would go anywhere near Fans to have there Business Skills Vetted - therefore you end up with people who really shouldnt be there - Also as stated by TFE if you arent part of there Group you wont be  allowed to serve - as Ive said the Twitter Version of the NW Bus   

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5 hours ago, admin said:

Good grief. 

Can I explain that scenario? No and I've zero idea why you are asking me to. To repeat I've no connection to TfE. Where is the figure of £10million coming from? Colin Weir is funding the purchase of shares is he not? Is that costing £10million?

The fan Board will surely drive what the Operating Board will do? The notion that the owners of a football club would set the direction of that football really isn't that radical is it. 

Thd composition of the Board may change but how the Board is appointed will remain precisely as it is now. Personally I'd like to see continuity and with the interim operational board comprising mostly of the present BoD for a fixed period. 

The issue of attracting additional funding  is one of the challenges of this model. Nobody is suggesting it will be all sunshine and flowers but what happens if we hit a cash flow problem now? Why would how that problem be addressed differ under fan ownership than the current situation? I would hope that the operational board would include individual(s) tasked with finding differing revenue streams. Would that not mirror what happens at clubs now? 

The fans, or TfE (which  is just the mechanism by which fan ownership happens)  if your prefer won't be running the Club. This is the most common misapprehension. The fans  (TfE) will own the club. The operational Board will run the club. It differs little from most other models in other than who the owners are. 

Pledges don't equate to support. IMO TfE need to be more proactive in chasing pledges though. It could be a good, new and additional source of income. 

The final comment just underlines what has blighted much of this thread and which laughably could be called a 'debate'. Too many people blinded by past slights and personality clashes to judge things on their merits and on a perceived view of who will be involved. You are attacking the composition of the fan board before their is even a change in ownership far less the need for an elected fan board. 

Personally I've no desire to see a fan board dominated by any one group but the trick to avoid that happening is to actively participate.

Fan ownership is a challenge, anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something but it is a great opportunity to put the fans front and centre of the future of Partick Thistle. It's an opportunity that we, the lifeblood of our club, should IMO be grabbing with both hands. 

Its more than setting a Direction - its picking the Operations Board - No way are you going to attract Business People of the right calibre "reporting to Fans " Its complete nonsense -Management is not a Democratic  Process - what successful Business Person would be remotley interested ? 

How do you know TFE wont be Running the Club ? They havent said that ? Have they excluded themselves from the Operations Board  ?  

I am not against a Model of Fan Ownership - I am 100% against TFE as it simply doesnt stack up - Im against there "vision" of how it would operate as No one of Calibre is going to put themselves forward to Run the Club without being able to make decisions - just how did they convince Colin Weir who wouldnt speak to David Beattie to back them - you dont find that remotely strange on any level - as for "slights" what because I disagree with something I have some sort  of personal axe to grind - nonsense - I simply do not agree on any level with TFE taking over the Club - just as I thought we needed a change of Board  - I was consistant in that and Im consistant on this  

We already have Fans Running the Club lest you forget - its the quality and experience that counts 

Do I believe this TFE are another NW Bus on Twitter - 100%

 

  

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6 hours ago, javeajag said:

If you don’t know who the consortium are , their background and their plans then this post is completely not true.

And it is not a business it is a private company set up with the express objective of buying the club ....you don’t know what you are talking about 

and you have no idea how they are funding it 

indeed you literally nothing about them 

talking of strange why would an investment banker who made his money in Asia then moved into restructuring businesses in China want to buy a small football club in Glasgow ?

They bought Nice - sold it at  X5 the money they bought for it - so they obviously arent daft - and less of I dont know what Im talking about as though you are some sort of Business Guru 

So answer how TFE managed to get in contact with Colin Weir and convince him very very quickly to Fund there takeover - yet he wouldnt talk to David Beattie ?    

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38 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Circa £2MN for Shares £2MN for Propco - £6MN  Training Ground - £10MN 

If it's that bad a deal then the shareholders dont need to sell, especially as they have the best interests of the club at heart. Or does that philosophy only apply to the consortium ( who presumably are out of the picture ). 

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24 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

They bought Nice - sold it at  X5 the money they bought for it - so they obviously arent daft - and less of I dont know what Im talking about as though you are some sort of Business Guru 

So answer how TFE managed to get in contact with Colin Weir and convince him very very quickly to Fund there takeover - yet he wouldnt talk to David Beattie ?    

Could be any of the following I suppose:

Someone at TfE might know Colin weir personally/they tried harder than mr Beattie/they went to visit his house/they kept ringing him til his mobile melted/harassment! Who knows.

Its also entirely possible that the removal of JLow pissed off Colin weir and he decided he just didn’t want to deal with the current board. If so, like it or not, that’s his decision to make. 

I don’t see why it’s so important as to how they got in contact with him. He may even have approached them?  The fact is TfE have his significant financial backing. 

I would much rather find out more about what any potential fan ownership model would look like, how it would run, how regularly the board would be elected/reviewed and quite frankly, if we become fan owned, if there is anything I can contribute to try and help make out club as successful as possible. 

Edited by mad-jag
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35 minutes ago, mad-jag said:

Could be any of the following I suppose:

Someone at TfE might know Colin weir personally/they tried harder than mr Beattie/they went to visit his house/they kept ringing him til his mobile melted/harassment! Who knows.

Its also entirely possible that the removal of JLow pissed off Colin weir and he decided he just didn’t want to deal with the current board. If so, like it or not, that’s his decision to make. 

I don’t see why it’s so important as to how they got in contact with him. He may even have approached them?  The fact is TfE have his significant financial backing. 

I would much rather find out more about what any potential fan ownership model would look like, how it would run, how regularly the board would be elected/reviewed and quite frankly, if we become fan owned, if there is anything I can contribute to try and help make out club as successful as possible. 

I think its important because it is the base of who and what TFE are - and David Beattie was attempting to make Contact with Colin Weir before JLow was dismissed 

You are correct TFE have significant Financial backing - however so did the previous Board from Mr Weir - that is No Reason to think handing the Club Over to TFE would be a good thing 

You have been told how its going to work TFE have decided the Model with there vast wealth of Running Companies and Football Clubs they have decided and they have Colin Weirs Money so thats it - whoever has Colin Weirs Money calls the shots at Partick Thistle ......

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3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

He has stated the Acadamey is part of the Deal 

I certainly haven’t read that anywhere and if indeed it’s true, it’s an unbelievable offer from Colin Weir and one that no club in Scotland,  out with  the top 5 clubs, could, or indeed would, knock back, never mind a club that is at the bottom of the championship!!

Edited by Lindau
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We can all be seduced by the £s and the appealing romanticism of owning our club. 
 

in the end though this will be about the integrity (and less so skills) of Tfe. If they have it, all will be well I am sure. If they lack it, then some of jj’s assertions will perhaps be prescient. 
 

I suspect for some the ends will justify the means. I respect that view. But, for me, integrity and transparency will be of paramount importance if tfe are to achieve their goals and take us all on the journey with them.  The upside is exciting. The downside though frightening. 

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43 minutes ago, jaf said:

We can all be seduced by the £s and the appealing romanticism of owning our club. 
 

in the end though this will be about the integrity (and less so skills) of Tfe. If they have it, all will be well I am sure. If they lack it, then some of jj’s assertions will perhaps be prescient. 
 

I suspect for some the ends will justify the means. I respect that view. But, for me, integrity and transparency will be of paramount importance if tfe are to achieve their goals and take us all on the journey with them.  The upside is exciting. The downside though frightening. 

Presumably,  the "integrity and transparency" perspective applies equally to the Consortium, in exactly the same way as for Tfe ?

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7 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

They bought Nice - sold it at  X5 the money they bought for it - so they obviously arent daft - and less of I dont know what Im talking about as though you are some sort of Business Guru 

So answer how TFE managed to get in contact with Colin Weir and convince him very very quickly to Fund there takeover - yet he wouldnt talk to David Beattie ?    

Ok I am trying to explain ..... nice was bought by a private company set up only for the purpose  of buying it and was not a business in the way you tried to suggest ....various investors provided the funds and received a % in return....yes they sold it for a profit but isn’t that the point it’s about making money the performance of the team and the club are secondary 

You can look at Barnsley where fans can see players sold and teams broken up to make money but to the detriment of the club going anywhere

i have no contact with tfe so can’t help you out and tbh I don’t really care that much about the Beattie/weir thing .....if Colin weir is providing funding to allow the club not to be bought by these vultures , bring the whole stadium back under club control, keeping funding the academy and maybe build a training facility then that’s great !!!!

Edited by javeajag
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1 hour ago, jaf said:

We can all be seduced by the £s and the appealing romanticism of owning our club. 
 

in the end though this will be about the integrity (and less so skills) of Tfe. If they have it, all will be well I am sure. If they lack it, then some of jj’s assertions will perhaps be prescient. 
 

I suspect for some the ends will justify the means. I respect that view. But, for me, integrity and transparency will be of paramount importance if tfe are to achieve their goals and take us all on the journey with them.  The upside is exciting. The downside though frightening. 

In the interest of transparency and integrity I have listed everything said by the consortium below......

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Its more than setting a Direction - its picking the Operations Board - No way are you going to attract Business People of the right calibre "reporting to Fans " Its complete nonsense -Management is not a Democratic  Process - what successful Business Person would be remotley interested ? 

How do you know TFE wont be Running the Club ? They havent said that ? Have they excluded themselves from the Operations Board  ?  

I am not against a Model of Fan Ownership - I am 100% against TFE as it simply doesnt stack up - Im against there "vision" of how it would operate as No one of Calibre is going to put themselves forward to Run the Club without being able to make decisions - just how did they convince Colin Weir who wouldnt speak to David Beattie to back them - you dont find that remotely strange on any level - as for "slights" what because I disagree with something I have some sort  of personal axe to grind - nonsense - I simply do not agree on any level with TFE taking over the Club - just as I thought we needed a change of Board  - I was consistant in that and Im consistant on this  

We already have Fans Running the Club lest you forget - its the quality and experience that counts 

Do I believe this TFE are another NW Bus on Twitter - 100%

 

  

Why is it you can write all this in tfe but not one word on your preferred consortium ? Because they have said nothing !!!!!! 
 

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2 hours ago, jaf said:

We can all be seduced by the £s and the appealing romanticism of owning our club. 
 

in the end though this will be about the integrity (and less so skills) of Tfe. If they have it, all will be well I am sure. If they lack it, then some of jj’s assertions will perhaps be prescient. 
 

I suspect for some the ends will justify the means. I respect that view. But, for me, integrity and transparency will be of paramount importance if tfe are to achieve their goals and take us all on the journey with them.  The upside is exciting. The downside though frightening. 

The problem equally though is that for me the consortium have not been transparent either.  

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1 hour ago, Jaggernaut said:

Presumably,  the "integrity and transparency" perspective applies equally to the Consortium, in exactly the same way as for Tfe ?

I think less so.  That is not to support the consortium over tfe at all. 
 

but surely the attractions of fan owned is that we should not stoop to the lowest common denominator?  If we are in charge of our own destiny is it not fair to aspire for that to be one rich in the qualities I mention. After all, if we cannot act fan to fellow fan with those qualities how can we ever expect anyone else to. 
 

everything doesn’t need to be consortium v tfe - we should hold tfe to the standards we expect as someone representing “us”. 
 

none of this is critical of them. It may be ideological. It may be entirely aspirational. It may be ambitious. But I think it is reasonable goal to have.?

finally, as admin said on one of his posts,  people need to engage with it and get involved with it. If we don’t jjs “north west bus” scenario will come to fruition and it will entirely be what we deserve. That way we can endeavour to make it what we want. And for me that would be an organisation of integrity beyond reproach and regardless of what other shady charlatan owners there are in the world of football. Oh, and I think btw that’s only fair to Colin weir too for his generosity.

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3 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

The problem equally though is that for me the consortium have not been transparent either.  

Seems a popular view. 
 

I disagree. (See above reply to jaggenaut). 
 

and for transparency and integrity - I mean in the future as much as the present. 

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2 hours ago, javeajag said:

Ok I am trying to explain ..... nice was bought by a private company set up only for the purpose  of buying it and was not a business in the way you tried to suggest ....various investors provided the funds and received a % in return....yes they sold it for a profit but isn’t that the point it’s about making money the performance of the team and the club are secondary 

You can look at Barnsley where fans can see players sold and teams broken up to make money but to the detriment of the club going anywhere

i have no contact with tfe so can’t help you out and tbh I don’t really care that much about the Beattie/weir thing .....if Colin weir is providing funding to allow the club not to be bought by these vultures , bring the whole stadium back under club control, keeping funding the academy and maybe build a training facility then that’s great !!!!

The Consortium are there to make a Profit and I dont need a lecture on how Investment Funds work - but thanks - So they have a Plan like all of these Funds - Buy an undervalued assett - build it up sell at a Profit - agree or disagree but its a Plan and one thats  Transparent 

TFE on the other hand have put themselves forward as the Voice of the Fans - yet when the Trust couldnt get a place on the Board under the previous  Board  Funny enough none of them saw it as an issue - I havent heard one of them ( and Ive none a number of them for many years ) express any interest in Fan Ownership 

When it was revealed at the AGM that we were planning to borrow £350K to Fund the Budget deficit - No Comment 

From No Where - they get massive Funding from Colin Weir 

Rather than engage consult evolve a Model of Fan Ownership its handed out on Tablets on the Back of Colin Weirs Cheque - Now many Fans are uncomfortable with the Takeover - I get that and understand that 

But they should be equally uncomfortable with something that suddenly appears from  No where with a Cunning Plan and a Big Cheque 

Fan ownership Models evolve in long drawn out negotiations - via elected Trusts - this simply doesn't stack up 

The other key concern is the complete lack of Business Experience and how these things Work - you are not going to attract the Quality of People to run the Club reporting to Fans Board and being "vetted "  - we do not have a large enough base of Fans with decent Business Track Record and Contacts in the first place 

So we end up with the Twitter NW Bus 

But Hey Colin Weir  is Signing a Cheque - so it must all be ok then ?  

Be careful what you wish for you may just get it 

For Me TFE doesnt stack up on any level

Lots of PR - Lots of Press - look closer 

Lets say the Consortium is still Live - Funny enough Press are leaked a Story about discussions with TFE - putting the Consortium Deal under Question - and who benefits? 

Im not against Fan Ownership or a version of it - Im 100% against TFE 

 

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54 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I dont follow this .... what have the consortium said and where? 

Nothing as far as I know. 
your point is?

did you even read my post? 
 

my point is a lack of transparency by the consortium is irrelevant to the standards we should expect from our fans organisation. In the future. That is not being critical of tfe to date - it is simply a hope and aspiration. 
 

mind you, on the basis you are in favour of it, it weakens my resolve to support the notion of fan ownership by each  post. 

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12 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The Consortium are there to make a Profit and I dont need a lecture on how Investment Funds work - but thanks - So they have a Plan like all of these Funds - Buy an undervalued assett - build it up sell at a Profit - agree or disagree but its a Plan and one thats  Transparent 

TFE on the other hand have put themselves forward as the Voice of the Fans - yet when the Trust couldnt get a place on the Board under the previous  Board  Funny enough none of them saw it as an issue - I havent heard one of them ( and Ive none a number of them for many years ) express any interest in Fan Ownership 

When it was revealed at the AGM that we were planning to borrow £350K to Fund the Budget deficit - No Comment 

From No Where - they get massive Funding from Colin Weir 

Rather than engage consult evolve a Model of Fan Ownership its handed out on Tablets on the Back of Colin Weirs Cheque - Now many Fans are uncomfortable with the Takeover - I get that and understand that 

But they should be equally uncomfortable with something that suddenly appears from  No where with a Cunning Plan and a Big Cheque 

Fan ownership Models evolve in long drawn out negotiations - via elected Trusts - this simply doesn't stack up 

The other key concern is the complete lack of Business Experience and how these things Work - you are not going to attract the Quality of People to run the Club reporting to Fans Board and being "vetted "  - we do not have a large enough base of Fans with decent Business Track Record and Contacts in the first place 

So we end up with the Twitter NW Bus 

But Hey Colin Weir  is Signing a Cheque - so it must all be ok then ?  

Be careful what you wish for you may just get it 

For Me TFE doesnt stack up on any level

Lots of PR - Lots of Press - look closer 

Lets say the Consortium is still Live - Funny enough Press are leaked a Story about discussions with TFE - putting the Consortium Deal under Question - and who benefits? 

Im not against Fan Ownership or a version of it - Im 100% against TFE 

 

Ok it’s not an investment fund but let’s move on ....

1. At no time have they outlined your ‘plan’ that is your assumption 

2. how can they be transparent when they have said nothing ?! 

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6 minutes ago, jaf said:

Nothing as far as I know. 
your point is?

did you even read my post? 
 

my point is a lack of transparency by the consortium is irrelevant to the standards we should expect from our fans organisation. In the future. That is not being critical of tfe to date - it is simply a hope and aspiration. 
 

mind you, on the basis you are in favour of it, it weakens my resolve to support the notion of fan ownership by each  post. 

Yes like lots you say I didn’t understand it 

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