Jump to content

What if they shut down the season?


West Ender
 Share

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

Yes saw that this morning. Encouraging but still a long way to go before the enquiry is approved. Does anyone know if the vote will be run on a secret ballot basis or on similar lines to the now infamous "call the lower leagues" vote - a voting slip, signed and dated by each club and handed/sent in! 

Very good point! The result that you example will leave Scottish Football in a no win position. The SPFL will claim an 'overwhelming' victory and completely ignore the fact that it has lost the confidence of 50% of its members. The result will be an open and festering  wound that will run for years! Also most likely collective legal action which I see we are again now considering! 

What you depict above  is the 2014 independence referendum result 55%-45% which although a defeat for Independence could hardly be described as an endorsement of the Union and as a result hasn't gone and will not go away! 

Not to mention the propaganda, underhand tactics, and disinformation used to get the "desired" result back then too.......:whistling:

Link to comment
Share on other sites


 

5 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

Yes saw that this morning. Encouraging but still a long way to go before the enquiry is approved. Does anyone know if the vote will be run on a secret ballot basis or on similar lines to the now infamous "call the lower leagues" vote - a voting slip, signed and dated by each club and handed/sent in! 

Very good point! The result that you example will leave Scottish Football in a no win position. The SPFL will claim an 'overwhelming' victory and completely ignore the fact that it has lost the confidence of 50% of its members. The result will be an open and festering  wound that will run for years! Also most likely collective legal action which I see we are again now considering! 

What you depict above  is the 2014 independence referendum result 55%-45% which although a defeat for Independence could hardly be described as an endorsement of the Union and as a result hasn't gone and will not go away! 

 Anything much over 40% and I think Doncaster (and McKenzie) probably needs to walk anyway, as do much of the board.  However I cannot really seem them breaching 30% unless there is a dramatic day today.

In the scenario that Doncaster did go, I expect the first application in the job application email inbox will be Scott Gardiner.  If you think that Doncaster is bad...…………...

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the way in which Football in Scotland will restart will be dependent on the success of the trace element of test, trace and isolate. In theory if people that are in contact with those can be quickly identified, contacted and either tested or isolated it could offer a way forward. It would allow clubs/SFA/SPFL to put in a call to the NHS and ask if any players due to play on Saturday are on their lists, if not game goes ahead behind closed doors

However from what I know the trace element is not even going to be up and running until early June. The staff doing this are starting from a very low base of knowledge as no one in Scotland has ever done this before and the UK government don't seem that interested. To get to the level of information and slickness of process to support football teams will take up to 3 months. So that puts a return to football matches behind close doors in about September.

Can't see any way in which attendance at home games return until the infection rate is near zero or the trace information is made available to the public which is unlikely this year. Even that will be dependent on social distancing at grounds so potentially all ticket games with allocated seats or in terracing clubs having to employ extra stewards to ensure appropriate distances. Also means less turnstiles open and a queuing system to get in as well as for toilets etc.

Don't see away support being allowed at games until a vaccine is found which probably means no away games for season 20/21. On the plus side this will allow more clubs to have home support in attendance at smaller clubs. The larger clubs like the Old firm, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs etc are going to have to liit their own supporters attendance.

Every option looks like less income for clubs and more costs. The only way through this is a greater use of TV games. If we had an effective SPFL or SFA you would hope they would be working on options with TV companies that changed the TV deal to allow streaming from all grounds live on a Saturday rather than doggidly sticking to the TV deal we had pre-covid19.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, laukat said:

I think the way in which Football in Scotland will restart will be dependent on the success of the trace element of test, trace and isolate. In theory if people that are in contact with those can be quickly identified, contacted and either tested or isolated it could offer a way forward. It would allow clubs/SFA/SPFL to put in a call to the NHS and ask if any players due to play on Saturday are on their lists, if not game goes ahead behind closed doors

However from what I know the trace element is not even going to be up and running until early June. The staff doing this are starting from a very low base of knowledge as no one in Scotland has ever done this before and the UK government don't seem that interested. To get to the level of information and slickness of process to support football teams will take up to 3 months. So that puts a return to football matches behind close doors in about September.

Can't see any way in which attendance at home games return until the infection rate is near zero or the trace information is made available to the public which is unlikely this year. Even that will be dependent on social distancing at grounds so potentially all ticket games with allocated seats or in terracing clubs having to employ extra stewards to ensure appropriate distances. Also means less turnstiles open and a queuing system to get in as well as for toilets etc.

Don't see away support being allowed at games until a vaccine is found which probably means no away games for season 20/21. On the plus side this will allow more clubs to have home support in attendance at smaller clubs. The larger clubs like the Old firm, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs etc are going to have to liit their own supporters attendance.

Every option looks like less income for clubs and more costs. The only way through this is a greater use of TV games. If we had an effective SPFL or SFA you would hope they would be working on options with TV companies that changed the TV deal to allow streaming from all grounds live on a Saturday rather than doggidly sticking to the TV deal we had pre-covid19.

I cannot understand why this takes so long, and why Scotland wants to use a different method than UK

We have been using the app in Norway for over a month now

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, jaf said:


 

 Anything much over 40% and I think Doncaster (and McKenzie) probably needs to walk anyway, as do much of the board.  However I cannot really seem them breaching 30% unless there is a dramatic day today.

In the scenario that Doncaster did go, I expect the first application in the job application email inbox will be Scott Gardiner.  If you think that Doncaster is bad...…………...

 

 

 

 

With an open vote I agree 30% looks a good result. With a Secret (Democratic) Ballot the 75% would be under threat if the rumours of bullying, coercion and manipulation are true which the anicdotal evidence suggest they are! 

The only way to bring more democracy to Scottish Football and make the SPFL accountable is the introduction of the secret ballot! 

I also think we are aiming at the wrong target. We should be seeking to remove/suspend the Head of the SPFL and that is McLennan. Anyone who is partial to some members and hostile to others is by definition not fit to lead an organisation that is supposed to look after the interests of ALL its members. 

Doncaster is albeit a senior official, but still only an official. He follows the lead given by the Head and Board of the SPFL! 

I understand McLennan has a reputation for sharp and unethical practises and management style in his previous organisation and so it appears to continue with the SPFL. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, sandy said:

Agree with all you say, AJ. Scottish Football has become a farce.

That's the big weakness here, those pushing for change are not articulating what the future looks like beyond the enquiry and desired removal of Doncaster.

We can assume Gardiner will be in frame to replace him. In his own mind at least. Heaven help us all.

We can assume all the board will probably resign too. They have to.

Who runs the SPFL in between times?

How do they heal the divisions?

How long will the report take?

None of the loudest barrels during this phase are likely to be favourites with the quiet compliant clubs to take over and win board elections, and if they do so they are surely the wrong people to heal division?

What happens if the enquiry exonerates Doncaster and the Board and we have wasted months when we could have been trying to save the Scottish game?  Presumably like the Deloittes report, no one will accept it?

How do we end the farce?

I just don't see how this resolution is anything other than a distraction at the most important time for our national game.

 

Edited by jaf
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, exiledjag said:

So we have 6, possibly 7 votes in favour of an Independent Enquiry:

Rangers/Hearts/Stranraer/Thistle/ICT/ Falkirk. 

I think East Fife also said they would vote in favour. Still need 25-26 votes! 

I very much doubt we'll get the required support for an independent enquiry.   I wonder if a simple vote of no confidence in the Board would have been a better tactic.   I think some clubs would have found that easier to support.   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

With an open vote I agree 30% looks a good result. With a Secret (Democratic) Ballot the 75% would be under threat if the rumours of bullying, coercion and manipulation are true which the anicdotal evidence suggest they are! 

 

 

But are they?

Is it not entirely logical, that if you don't call the season, and you cant play it out, then the remaining option is to null and void it?  And is it not entirely fair that if you null and void it, it didn't happen, and so funds should be distributed equally?  It seems entirely logical to me - in fact we would have been much better off under that scenario - relegation off the table and greater share of funds - perhaps we should have been in Alloa and Dunfermline WhatsApp group pushing for that, rather than ICT and Dundee?!!! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, jaf said:

But are they?

Is it not entirely logical, that if you don't call the season, and you cant play it out, then the remaining option is to null and void it?  And is it not entirely fair that if you null and void it, it didn't happen, and so funds should be distributed equally?  It seems entirely logical to me - in fact we would have been much better off under that scenario - relegation off the table and greater share of funds - perhaps we should have been in Alloa and Dunfermline WhatsApp group pushing for that, rather than ICT and Dundee?!!! 

Not sure if ive read this right but are you saying alloa and dunfermline wanted to null & void the season with money split evenly between the 10 teams. i thought it was Inverness who were looking at this. This was my way of dealing with this from the beginning bit like the dutch league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

I cannot understand why this takes so long, and why Scotland wants to use a different method than UK

We have been using the app in Norway for over a month now

The problem with Scotland using a different system from the UK is because the Scottish Health care IT systems and models of operation are fundamentally different from the English and Welsh ones.

For example Scottish NHS use the CHI number as the primary identifier for patients. England uses NHS number. Scotland uses a Health board model where lots of hospitals belong to one entity and similarly patients are associated to one Health Board that allows more fluid movement of patients between community, primary and secondary care. In England they have Trusts where less hospitals belong to a single trust and patients are assoiciated with lots more trusts and there isn't such an information flow between primary and secondary care. That makes it difficult to pick up a lab test for a patient into a single UK app.

I don't know anything about the Norwegian healthcare model or systems but I would assume its a singular national approach. Unfortunately the UK is trying to weild together different entities therefore a UK approach has limitations and in some cases not viable. 

Thats before you look at the political choices of each Governments response.

The UK Government is putting very little emphasis on contact tracing (people phoning those that have came into contact) and instead decided to pin its hopes on an app utilising bluetooth which will tell you if another person you are in the proximity of with the app installed and bluetooth switch on has tested positive. This only really works and replaces contact tracing if you can get 80% adoption rates. The Norwegian app seems similar to the Chinese in that it uses GPS location rather than Bluetooth proximity which seems like a better method as not all people will leave Bluetooth on but if your mobile is on it is through signal location giving out your GPS location. Why the UK government chose to use Bluetooth over GPS is really strange when you consider there are very few countries using Bluetooth and the countries that have been successfull with apps for contact tracing tend to be using apps based on GPS.  In general the UK government approach seems to be very high risk and looks to protect the economy over health.

The Scottish Government is going for a blended approach with more emphasis on contract tracing. They will try to adapt the UK system to be part of that. I think they would have preffered a Norwegian type app as Norway bases that on China but they lack the powers under devloution to be able to get the GPS data from the mobile phone companies. It could be argued that if the tracing app was similar to Norway and China then there would be less for manual contact tracing and the Scottish Governments blended approach.  In general the Scottish Government's polictial choices are based much more about protecting health over the economy.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Whitelees jag said:

Not sure if ive read this right but are you saying alloa and dunfermline wanted to null & void the season with money split evenly between the 10 teams. i thought it was Inverness who were looking at this. This was my way of dealing with this from the beginning bit like the dutch league.

Yes. The leaked WhatsApp messages suggest that Dunfermline and Alloa were 'threatening' clubs that if the existing resolution - call the season - was not passed the alternative would have to be null and void and divide the money equally between all 10 clubs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, jaf said:

Yes. The leaked WhatsApp messages suggest that Dunfermline and Alloa were 'threatening' clubs that if the existing resolution - call the season - was not passed the alternative would have to be null and void and divide the money equally between all 10 clubs.

Yeah think it was Inverness who wanted to put forward a proposal to null & void the leagues, and were told by dunfermline & alloa that the money would then be split evenly between all 10 clubs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, javeajag said:

Can’t see games behind closed doors being viable in Scotland 

I'm sure that's the case. Certainly been mentioned many times elsewhere. Think it was Maitland at Hamilton who was talking about kicking off the season behind closed doors but with the bulk of fixtures weighted towards the latter half of the season. He was probably talking about the top tier only.    

There's also the "political" view to be taken into consideration. Why for instance should businesses in the hospitality sector remain shut if they can prove they can operate within the same parameters of safety?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Whitelees jag said:

Yeah think it was Inverness who wanted to put forward a proposal to null & void the leagues, and were told by dunfermline & alloa that the money would then be split evenly between all 10 clubs.

Why did our club not get behind this with the other 5 clubs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, laukat said:

The problem with Scotland using a different system from the UK is because the Scottish Health care IT systems and models of operation are fundamentally different from the English and Welsh ones.

For example Scottish NHS use the CHI number as the primary identifier for patients. England uses NHS number. Scotland uses a Health board model where lots of hospitals belong to one entity and similarly patients are associated to one Health Board that allows more fluid movement of patients between community, primary and secondary care. In England they have Trusts where less hospitals belong to a single trust and patients are assoiciated with lots more trusts and there isn't such an information flow between primary and secondary care. That makes it difficult to pick up a lab test for a patient into a single UK app.

I don't know anything about the Norwegian healthcare model or systems but I would assume its a singular national approach. Unfortunately the UK is trying to weild together different entities therefore a UK approach has limitations and in some cases not viable. 

Thats before you look at the political choices of each Governments response.

The UK Government is putting very little emphasis on contact tracing (people phoning those that have came into contact) and instead decided to pin its hopes on an app utilising bluetooth which will tell you if another person you are in the proximity of with the app installed and bluetooth switch on has tested positive. This only really works and replaces contact tracing if you can get 80% adoption rates. The Norwegian app seems similar to the Chinese in that it uses GPS location rather than Bluetooth proximity which seems like a better method as not all people will leave Bluetooth on but if your mobile is on it is through signal location giving out your GPS location. Why the UK government chose to use Bluetooth over GPS is really strange when you consider there are very few countries using Bluetooth and the countries that have been successfull with apps for contact tracing tend to be using apps based on GPS.  In general the UK government approach seems to be very high risk and looks to protect the economy over health.

The Scottish Government is going for a blended approach with more emphasis on contract tracing. They will try to adapt the UK system to be part of that. I think they would have preffered a Norwegian type app as Norway bases that on China but they lack the powers under devloution to be able to get the GPS data from the mobile phone companies. It could be argued that if the tracing app was similar to Norway and China then there would be less for manual contact tracing and the Scottish Governments blended approach.  In general the Scottish Government's polictial choices are based much more about protecting health over the economy.

Norwegian system uses bluetooth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Why did our club not get behind this with the other 5 clubs?

Think you would need to ask them..from what im reading null & void was never on table..obviously doesnt suit celtic who imo have a massive influence on the spfl..

Straight away in our league you have 3 who wouldnt pass it.

Ive been suprised the press have never jumped on how the dutch league have finished there season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Whitelees jag said:

Think you would need to ask them..from what im reading null & void was never on table..obviously doesnt suit celtic who imo have a massive influence on the spfl..

Straight away in our league you have 3 who wouldnt pass it.

Ive been suprised the press have never jumped on how the dutch league have finished there season.

Hard to know how it can be called 'a threat' , if it was never going to pass anyway?!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Whitelees jag said:

Think you would need to ask them..from what im reading null & void was never on table..obviously doesnt suit celtic who imo have a massive influence on the spfl..

Straight away in our league you have 3 who wouldnt pass it.

Ive been suprised the press have never jumped on how the dutch league have finished there season.

It would have kept us up, and we would have had more prize money. 

Who apart from DUFC wouldnt have jumped on it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

It would have kept us up, and we would have had more prize money. 

Who apart from DUFC wouldnt have jumped on it

Alloa and dunfermline..both represented on the spfl board..null & void would have meant no 9 in a row..that would not have been allowed to happen..as i said it would have been my choice.

Imo this is why rangers want the  investigation because they reckon they were desperate to call the lower leagues 1st that then set a prescient for the top league i.e average points per game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, jaf said:

Hard to know how it can be called 'a threat' , if it was never going to pass anyway?!  

It was Inverness who were proposing to null and void the league..alloa and dunfermline were saying well if you go down that road youll lose out on money as its then split 10 ways.

Back page of daily record today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Whitelees jag said:

It was Inverness who were proposing to null and void the league..alloa and dunfermline were saying well if you go down that road youll lose out on money as its then split 10 ways.

Back page of daily record today.

Looks like Inverness with there new statement have blown the daily record article out the water.

Inverness certainly aint holding back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, laukat said:

The problem with Scotland using a different system from the UK is because the Scottish Health care IT systems and models of operation are fundamentally different from the English and Welsh ones.

For example Scottish NHS use the CHI number as the primary identifier for patients. England uses NHS number. Scotland uses a Health board model where lots of hospitals belong to one entity and similarly patients are associated to one Health Board that allows more fluid movement of patients between community, primary and secondary care. In England they have Trusts where less hospitals belong to a single trust and patients are assoiciated with lots more trusts and there isn't such an information flow between primary and secondary care. That makes it difficult to pick up a lab test for a patient into a single UK app.

I don't know anything about the Norwegian healthcare model or systems but I would assume its a singular national approach. Unfortunately the UK is trying to weild together different entities therefore a UK approach has limitations and in some cases not viable. 

Thats before you look at the political choices of each Governments response.

The UK Government is putting very little emphasis on contact tracing (people phoning those that have came into contact) and instead decided to pin its hopes on an app utilising bluetooth which will tell you if another person you are in the proximity of with the app installed and bluetooth switch on has tested positive. This only really works and replaces contact tracing if you can get 80% adoption rates. The Norwegian app seems similar to the Chinese in that it uses GPS location rather than Bluetooth proximity which seems like a better method as not all people will leave Bluetooth on but if your mobile is on it is through signal location giving out your GPS location. Why the UK government chose to use Bluetooth over GPS is really strange when you consider there are very few countries using Bluetooth and the countries that have been successfull with apps for contact tracing tend to be using apps based on GPS.  In general the UK government approach seems to be very high risk and looks to protect the economy over health.

The Scottish Government is going for a blended approach with more emphasis on contract tracing. They will try to adapt the UK system to be part of that. I think they would have preffered a Norwegian type app as Norway bases that on China but they lack the powers under devloution to be able to get the GPS data from the mobile phone companies. It could be argued that if the tracing app was similar to Norway and China then there would be less for manual contact tracing and the Scottish Governments blended approach.  In general the Scottish Government's polictial choices are based much more about protecting health over the economy.

I don't actually think the organisation structure of the health authority has anything to do with it. Bluetooth is used because it is about being in close proximity to someone else that matters, not absolute location. Also bear in mind GPS doesn't work indoors or wherever you don't have line of sight to the sky.  I'm retty sure all contact tracing/ proximity detection solutions will depend on Bluetooth.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200415-covid-19-could-bluetooth-contact-tracing-end-lockdown-early

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Without disagreeing about what you say, it isn’t the supporters who will be voting, but the club chairmen. Looking at it from the perspective of a league 2 or mid table league 1 side then he has delivered the much needed cash that he promised. You can add that those clubs with reps on the board will not want an enquiry (+ Celtic) and the numbers don’t add up. Ofer that the best we can hope for is that a significant number (with luck over 50%) vote in favour, 

I know i said no matter what team you support, i didn't mean supporters would be voting today. Surely not many chairman  can be impressed by the way this vote has been handled. The money thing i feel has been a bit of a red herring as any chairman i have heard talking about it has said the final payment didn't make a lot of difference. In fact the Stranraer chairman said their final payment of £1,200 would not cover wages for 1 week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...