Very Bitter Jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 42 minutes ago, allyo said: Plenty fans on here were supportive of the 14-14-14 proposal which would have seen four clubs from League 1 lumped in with the League 2 clubs. Don't know if the club would have voted for it. Suspect it may have. Definitely think Anne Budge lost her moral high ground when she came up with that idea. Have to say that I thought minimal reconstruction was the only way to address this. Stopping promotion to me seems every bit as unjustified as the relegations. I don't agree with you re 14-14-14 as in my view was a legitemate option to be considered. The proposal didn't relegate teams, no one went down as such, still as close to the Championship as before, just others merged up. I agree, though that as a solution it was the most flawed, for want of a better word, as those four teams would have end up in the lowest league and as a result and therefore closer to the play off spot for potentionally dropping out the spfl. I agree in principal that stopping promotion is as unjust to Dundee Utds and Cove's cases (Raith don't 'deserve' anything mind) as our relegation is to us. Problem for us, as I understand it, is thats the outcome we require to prevent our unjust relegation. What frustrates me most about this whole situation though, is that it didn't need to happen this way . Reconstruction was such an obvious solution as it would have stopped unfair relegations and allowed promotions, simple really! For some reason though, too many teams that had absolutely nothing or very little to lose from reconstruction, under the circumstances, decided for some reason to vote against. In particular step forward Dundee Utd, Raith Rovers for example (not sure how Cove voted). Based on their votes alone we should have zero guilt or sympathy if there promotions are over turned and also if of any other teams who voted against it are put in trouble because of or legal action. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 10 minutes ago, Very Bitter Jag said: I don't agree with you re 14-14-14 as in my view was a legitemate option to be considered. The proposal didn't relegate teams, no one went down as such, still as close to the Championship as before, just others merged up. I agree, though that as a solution it was the most flawed, for want of a better word, as those four teams would have end up in the lowest league and as a result and therefore closer to the play off spot for potentionally dropping out the spfl. I agree in principal that stopping promotion is as unjust to Dundee Utds and Cove's cases (Raith don't 'deserve' anything mind) as our relegation is to us. Problem for us, as I understand it, is thats the outcome we require to prevent our unjust relegation. What frustrates me most about this whole situation though, is that it didn't need to happen this way . Reconstruction was such an obvious solution as it would have stopped unfair relegations and allowed promotions, simple really! For some reason though, too many teams that had absolutely nothing or very little to lose from reconstruction, under the circumstances, decided for some reason to vote against. In particular step forward Dundee Utd, Raith Rovers for example (not sure how Cove voted). Based on their votes alone we should have zero guilt or sympathy if there promotions are over turned and also if of any other teams who voted against it are put in trouble because of or legal action. It should never have got to this stage , what a job Neil Doncaster has done ! , Ian Maxwell isn’t much better as his remit is to oversee Scottish Football of which PTFC are one of his member clubs . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 30 minutes ago, Very Bitter Jag said: I don't agree with you re 14-14-14 as in my view was a legitemate option to be considered. The proposal didn't relegate teams, no one went down as such, still as close to the Championship as before, just others merged up. I agree, though that as a solution it was the most flawed, for want of a better word, as those four teams would have end up in the lowest league and as a result and therefore closer to the play off spot for potentionally dropping out the spfl. I agree in principal that stopping promotion is as unjust to Dundee Utds and Cove's cases (Raith don't 'deserve' anything mind) as our relegation is to us. Problem for us, as I understand it, is thats the outcome we require to prevent our unjust relegation. What frustrates me most about this whole situation though, is that it didn't need to happen this way . Reconstruction was such an obvious solution as it would have stopped unfair relegations and allowed promotions, simple really! For some reason though, too many teams that had absolutely nothing or very little to lose from reconstruction, under the circumstances, decided for some reason to vote against. In particular step forward Dundee Utd, Raith Rovers for example (not sure how Cove voted). Based on their votes alone we should have zero guilt or sympathy if there promotions are over turned and also if of any other teams who voted against it are put in trouble because of or legal action. With exception of a slight difference of opinion regarding 14-14-14 I agree completely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garscube Road End Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 16 minutes ago, jlsarmy said: It should never have got to this stage , what a job Neil Doncaster has done ! , Ian Maxwell isn’t much better as his remit is to oversee Scottish Football of which PTFC are one of his member clubs . As we all know, these pathetic, corrupt organisations only care about 2 clubs, feck everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagged Edge Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 I'm assuming the SFA Compliance Officer will now be investigating Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers for taking to the courts without going through the SPFL first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muscat Jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 2 hours ago, topcat said: Never heard you so beaten down Muscat Jag. But your right that the product doesn,t deserve the loyalty that it gets. I have switched off totally to away fixtures and I have to admit have found it harder to drag myself to Firhill of recent times even though we are no strangers to the ups and downs of relegation/promotion. Yeah TC it has got to me. It's not just this current situation, although what we are going through right now is a particularly shocking example of the lack of any sort of morality in the game. For decades the game here has been been run from top to bottom by small-time spivs and crooks who don't have the ability to see beyond the end of the week. The standard has been been going downhill steadily since the 70s. It is quite frankly a turgid bore. If you actually stop and think about the amount of money it takes to follow a football team in Scotland you'd have to question your sanity. All that cash on such a mickey mouse product. The only thing I'd seriously miss is meeting my mates for a few pints. The only real benefit of going to the football is that it keeps you out the pub for 3 hours. Christ, this is supposed to be fun. If I think hard enough I can just about remember when it was. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 2 hours ago, a f kincaid said: Just as a slight diversion, here's a quote from a football publication... "...changing the format of the league was almost impossible to accomplish. Understandably, in the votes that mattered clubs would consult their own individual interests". That's a quote from Bob Crampsey's "The First 100 Years" and it refers to 1938-39 season. There's nothing new in Scottish Football. However, it has been managed at least twice since then and in one case 8(or maybe 6) voted for their own demotion from the top league and similar numbers from the 2nd Division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, Jagged Edge said: I'm assuming the SFA Compliance Officer will now be investigating Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers for taking to the courts without going through the SPFL first? It does seem that the SFA were sitting back through this whole thing. It’s not as if Hearts have just sprung legal action on the SPFL. They have been threatening it for months. Who are those 3 clubs taking their action against ? Promotion hasn’t been stopped yet and if it is, it will be the court’s decision, won’t it. Seems like they are appealing a judgement before it has been given Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Very Bitter Jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, jlsarmy said: It should never have got to this stage , what a job Neil Doncaster has done ! , Ian Maxwell isn’t much better as his remit is to oversee Scottish Football of which PTFC are one of his member clubs . Agreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Jagged Edge said: I'm assuming the SFA Compliance Officer will now be investigating Dundee United, Raith Rovers and Cove Rangers for taking to the courts without going through the SPFL first? Intervening in a case that is already happening and in respect of which you’ve been served court papers is not the same as initiating those proceedings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 Just heard someone say on Radio Scotland say that reconstruction wasn't voted on. Is that true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyo Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 I think it was killed after an "indicative vote"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, allyo said: I think it was killed after an "indicative vote"? So did the SPFL board just decide it wouldn't carry after speaking to some clubs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld Jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, scotty said: Just heard someone say on Radio Scotland say that reconstruction wasn't voted on. Is that true? They asked clubs to indicate if they would be in favour of league reconstruction. If they got enough clubs interested in reconstruction there would have been a vote on it this Monday. Not enough showed an interest, so end of story, according to the SPFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 There was an indicative vote in which fewer than half of the members said they wanted to discuss approving a specific proposal. It was a dead duck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitelees jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 16 said they would support reconstruction..14 said they wouldn't and apparently 12 abstained/didnt know which was taken as a no vote.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, Whitelees jag said: 16 said they would support reconstruction..14 said they wouldn't and apparently 12 abstained/didnt know which was taken as a no vote.. The issue was not about a simple majority. It was that among the 14 were clubs in the same division as one another in sufficient numbers that they knew the proposal would be blocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryHell Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) From our point of view Sportsound is always a good listen - hardly an opinion suggesting we aren’t the ones being wronged. Plenty support. Edited June 20, 2020 by MerryHell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Whitelees jag said: 16 said they would support reconstruction..14 said they wouldn't and apparently 12 abstained/didnt know which was taken as a no vote.. It’s an absolute joke, they absolutely make it up as they go along , the vote for the egm against the SPFL by Rangers , there was 2 abstentions, one of which was Clyde. The 2 abstentions were counted as null and void . Now we’ve got a scenario, when the Clubs vote for reconstruction and there is 12 teams who have abstained, the votes are now counted as a No vote . What’s the difference? Edited June 20, 2020 by jlsarmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 This was an "indicative vote" so did someone phone round until they heard what they wanted then stopped asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, jlsarmy said: It’s an absolute joke, they absolutely make it up as they go along , the vote for the egm against the SPFL by Rangers , there was 2 abstentions, one of which was Clyde. The 2 abstentions were counted as null and void . Now we’ve got a scenario, when the Clubs vote for reconstruction and there is 12 teams who have abstained, the votes are now counted as a No vote . What’s the difference? It's not complicated. Unless enough teams vote for a proposal (whatever its content) it falls. If teams abstain on a request for an EGM, they aren't helping it happen. If teams are abstaining on league reconstruction, they aren't helping it happen. There is nothing irregular about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: It's not complicated. Unless enough teams vote for a proposal (whatever its content) it falls. If teams abstain on a request for an EGM, they aren't helping it happen. If teams are abstaining on league reconstruction, they aren't helping it happen. There is nothing irregular about this. Ok I get that , but why were the abstained votes counted as a No , if there was an ambiguity about they shouldn’t have been counted at all . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrywrag Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 just googled abstention "can it be counted a yes vote" the reply I got was as follows abstenations are counted and noted but not as a yes or no vote, an abstention does not affect the voting result, a member has the right to abstain and cannot be compelled to vote. a member has an obligation to abstain if he or she has a direct personal interest in the matter that amounts to a legal conflict of interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebaldie Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 Regarding this BBC Report (June 15th) on Championship kicking off provisionally on October 17th with training resuming in August :- https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53002695 I wonder if certain championship clubs might now be kicking themselves that this date has been announced as that's a full seventeen weeks away and still leaves a huge window of opportunity for considering or 'being persuaded' to at least tweak the league structure to 12/12/10/10. The Hearts situation aside, this would address what all football fans cannot deny to be our biggest injustice, that all important 'game in hand' which is possibly still our ace card which Hearts don't hold. The one thing that really annoyed me at the time when the Championship, Leagues 1 and 2 were terminated was all Premiership teams were in effect put on standby to see if the 2019/20 season could resume and have the fixtures completed. At this time both Thistle and ICT could have been given the same status in order to try to play our unfulfilled 28th fixture within the same timeframe. ICT would still have remained second regardless of the result. All the Championship teams could have been paid their League money with QoS and ourselves both paid for 10th place until our crucial game v ICT took place to finalise positions. As it transpired of course, this didn't happen for the Premiership anyway but nevertheless our 'game in hand' was effectively considered irrelevant by the SPFL. Had Rangers been two points behind Celtic with a game in hand, would the Premiership have been terminated and Celtic awarded the title? Assuming actually true, I did have to laugh at the following statement in the above report, obviously specifically for Hearts benefit :- 'Currently, only Premiership clubs are currently allowed to train before the division's 1 August start.' i.e. don't bother getting ready to play, you're definitely no' getting a game in the Premiership on August 1st! Surely clubs can start training whenever they like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlsarmy Posted June 20, 2020 Report Share Posted June 20, 2020 Just now, harrywrag said: just googled abstention "can it be counted a yes vote" the reply I got was as follows abstenations are counted and noted but not as a yes or no vote, an abstention does not affect the voting result, a member has the right to abstain and cannot be compelled to vote. a member has an obligation to abstain if he or she has a direct personal interest in the matter that amounts to a legal conflict of interest The abstentions shouldn’t have counted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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