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Court It Is Then


Bobbyhouston
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Just now, Woodstock Jag said:

Would your view be the same if our benefactor has not covered us for all of the legal costs and/or any fines from our disciplinary proceedings with the SFA?

The way I see it if we are a single penny out of pocket this little escapade has been a bad thing.

It has served to cloak the SPFL's resolution in the sheen of legality. A court's seal of approval.

Sorry, should've said that my view was determined by the costs being underwritten. 

I certainly stand by the PR aspects. If you can stand back a bit and accept yourself and other contributors on here (either side of the argument) adopted a far more forensic position than the average fan then you may see where I'm coming from. In my opinion the general "feel bad" feeling amongst the support would've been worse than it'll now be simply because the Club did something. It's of course immeasurable in terms of future attendances, sale of strips and other merchandise, hospitality etc. but shouldn't be overlooked.

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Just now, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Sorry, should've said that my view was determined by the costs being underwritten. 

I certainly stand by the PR aspects. If you can stand back a bit and accept yourself and other contributors on here (either side of the argument) adopted a far more forensic position than the average fan then you may see where I'm coming from. In my opinion the general "feel bad" feeling amongst the support would've been worse than it'll now be simply because the Club did something. It's of course immeasurable in terms of future attendances, sale of strips and other merchandise, hospitality etc. but shouldn't be overlooked.

Fair enough.

I think the PR has, on balance, been negative for us. It has left a lot of bad blood to be shared between us and Hearts whereas it could have just been left with Hearts.

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I was fully expecting this outcome and I commend thistle for the stance they made. But the bad taste this has left me with of Scottish football will be with me for a long time to come and hopefully with fellow jags fans everywhere too. I fully expect a far noisier and hostile firhill when we’re allowed back in. Another thing, Doncaster is a smug pr*ck and I can’t wait for him to be exposed as the corrupt and weak man he is somewhere further down the line. 

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When do we expect a statement from the club?

Usually Hearts get a statement out pretty quickly. The SPFL clearly had there's ready to go with the outcome as did Dundee United, Raith and Cove which suggests the result was known to the parties involved at the latest early this morning

I would have thought we were due someting that acknowledged the outcome if nothing else

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On 6/17/2020 at 12:49 PM, fenski said:

I agree that we are risking goodwill and good relationships with other clubs. What happens in future when we're in market for loan players? What about all the mutual back-scratching and favours that likely goes on, that ordinary fans never hear about?

Good relationships are always critical. We may think recent events demonstrate these relationships are a bit hollow, however we have definitely benefited in past, and could've used the goodwill that extended to us as the injured party as leverage in future.

That's gone now. For a court case that we will likely lose. Even with someone else picking up the bill, this is most definitely not a shot for nothing.

I really don't see this playing out well for us in the long term.

And it didn't. All the court case did was lose us the high moral ground in the eyes of many - rightly or wrongly...

The board need to accept defeat and start to re-build the club and all the relationships we depend upon. Leave the righteous (and rightful) anger to the fans.

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1 minute ago, fenski said:

And it didn't. All the court case did was lose us the high moral ground in the eyes of many - rightly or wrongly...

The board need to accept defeat and start to re-build the club and all the relationships we depend upon. Leave the righteous (and rightful) anger to the fans.

You told them so, fenski. But they wouldn't listen!

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2 minutes ago, fenski said:

And it didn't. All the court case did was lose us the high moral ground in the eyes of many - rightly or wrongly...

The board need to accept defeat and start to re-build the club and all the relationships we depend upon. Leave the righteous (and rightful) anger to the fans.

Out of likes - bang on the money IMO

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12 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Just as well cause the only holes here are in your legal comprehension.


bet you go out in the morning dressed up in a suit , briefcase with cheese sandwiches and The Herald inside , sit on public transport boring the arse of folk that your some shit hot legal eagle 

then get off at Central station , go to your locker you have hired and change into cargo trousers , hi viz and rigger boots , then head down to the clyde and stare at the Court building across the Clyde, while you are cleaning pigeon shite off the walkway along clyde street 

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1 minute ago, Bobbyhouston said:


bet you go out in the morning dressed up in a suit , briefcase with cheese sandwiches and The Herald inside , sit on public transport boring the arse of folk that your some shit hot legal eagle 

then get off at Central station , go to your locker you have hired and change into cargo trousers , hi viz and rigger boots , then head down to the clyde and stare at the Court building across the Clyde, while you are cleaning pigeon shite off the walkway along clyde street 

I'm sure this sounded a lot better in your head.

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2 minutes ago, Bobbyhouston said:


bet you go out in the morning dressed up in a suit , briefcase with cheese sandwiches and The Herald inside , sit on public transport boring the arse of folk that your some shit hot legal eagle 

then get off at Central station , go to your locker you have hired and change into cargo trousers , hi viz and rigger boots , then head down to the clyde and stare at the Court building across the Clyde, while you are cleaning pigeon shite off the walkway along clyde street 

In terms of streams of consciousness that's almost at a Tom Waits level

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Like most on this forum I'm disappointed with the result.  As for creating bad blood, it was already there where the likes of QOS, Morton, Raith ,Ross Co, St Mirren and the rest voted to end the lower leagues.So forget creating bad blood.  Its there and will exist for a generation, at least.  Us more mature fans will be gone by then. (Don't forget to leave a (financial) legacy for the Jags.)

This action , for me, was worth it.  The SPFL totally ignored Leagues 1 & 2 until we joined the action with Hearts. It was only then that they issued their edict to vote to restart, or risk demotion.  Without the action it is my firm belief that League 1 would have been mothballed until season 21/22.  That is the way it was looking.  It still might be mothballed, but that will be another fight, as will be the wishes of the likes of Ross Co to have no relegation in 20/21 due to the reduced number of games.  Not on.

I don't believe MacLennan, Doncaster et al have escaped unhurt.  Their wish to dictate season 20/21 was rightly rejected, and there are a core of clubs now firmly opposed to them.  My hope is that this is a Phyrric victory for them.

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11 minutes ago, East Kent Jag II said:

Like most on this forum I'm disappointed with the result.  As for creating bad blood, it was already there where the likes of QOS, Morton, Raith ,Ross Co, St Mirren and the rest voted to end the lower leagues.So forget creating bad blood.  Its there and will exist for a generation, at least.  Us more mature fans will be gone by then. (Don't forget to leave a (financial) legacy for the Jags.)

This action , for me, was worth it.  The SPFL totally ignored Leagues 1 & 2 until we joined the action with Hearts. It was only then that they issued their edict to vote to restart, or risk demotion.  Without the action it is my firm belief that League 1 would have been mothballed until season 21/22.  That is the way it was looking.  It still might be mothballed, but that will be another fight, as will be the wishes of the likes of Ross Co to have no relegation in 20/21 due to the reduced number of games.  Not on.

I don't believe MacLennan, Doncaster et al have escaped unhurt.  Their wish to dictate season 20/21 was rightly rejected, and there are a core of clubs now firmly opposed to them.  My hope is that this is a Phyrric victory for them.

I think the above is correct. 

Today's other news items includes a reference to an interview by  Cormack of Aberdeen FC and the local paper. 

Among other things he is calling for a root and branch review of Scottish Football, labels the SPFL as an administrative  instead of a commercially orientated organisation and for the SPFL and Scottish Football to be more business focused. He also makes reference to the experience of the last few months the inference being it has been entirely negative for the game and unlikely to attract or encourage investment. 

The downside of the article (for me) is that his focus, notwithstanding the root and branch review of Scottish Football, is clearly on the SPL Clubs! I think he sees any additional investment going to the top flight! 

The above is a summary so hope I have captured the gist of the article (BBC/ football/ Scotland/today's gossip. Click on the newspaper link) 

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1 hour ago, laukat said:

When do we expect a statement from the club?

Usually Hearts get a statement out pretty quickly. The SPFL clearly had there's ready to go with the outcome as did Dundee United, Raith and Cove which suggests the result was known to the parties involved at the latest early this morning

I would have thought we were due someting that acknowledged the outcome if nothing else

Perhaps waiting for the outcome of the costs determination?

My understanding - and I am no expert - is that in Scotland arbitration costs (if awarded) are done in line with proportionality to the amount at stake, ie by claiming £8m and £2m, the clubs may face higher arbitration costs burden than had they sought more realistic figures. The good news for us is , if my understanding is correct, the lions share of costs ought to be met  by Hearts.

 

 

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Amidst all the anger at this whole situation, my constant trouble has been that there are a bunch of things that are demonstrably true and frequently pull in opposite directions:

1. This situation is unfair. We all signed up to play the season and it's unfair to be relegated with games left to play

2. It would be equally unfair for teams who were in position to win their leagues to be denied promotion

3. This is a global pandemic and people are losing their lives so football isn't really that important in the grand scheme of things

4. The SPFL was a shambles from a governance perspective in organising the vote to provisionally end the season

5. The SPFL was managing a complex mix of commercial contracts with sponsors and had the added pain of this summer being a changeover in their broadcaster contracts which limited its options. Basically, Doncaster and co had a really difficult job in the midst of unprecedented uncertainty

6. What is now clear is that there is no way that we could have finished the 19/20 season so the choice was to annul the season (with a host of commercial contract implications) or to call the season early with the unfairness that brought to us)

7. Every club in the SPFL voted out of self-interest. Including us. If we had beaten QOTS at Firhill that night and sat a point above them, we would've voted to end the season early. 

Throughout this whole saga, the best outcome for the relegated clubs was going to be to tell the story in the media and take the moral highground. History tells us that we weren't going to find holes in the rules and our best bet was to publicly shame the rest of Scottish football into offering some cash as additional compensation. Instead, we embarked on a legal case which, while we rightly decried the unfairness of the situation, proposed that the promoted teams shouldn't be promoted which would be similarly unfair. We can't possibly claim to be anything other than just as driven by self-interest as everyone else at that point.

We have compounded errors for 18 months at Firhill. This summer, we took the wrong path in challenging the SPFL vote, we chose the wrong partners to do it with, we took the wrong tone in almost every statement we made. Now, we should take some time to be silent and let the dust settle on this and get ready to be a better football team in League One both on and off the park. It's not fair but sometimes you have to accept that all the club has done for the past weeks is make the outcome worse.

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In my view the moral high ground isn't very important. Acting morally is, but that's a different thing.

What Covid has demonstrated very clearly is that Scottish football clubs rely very heavily on their fans. By far Thistle's most important audience is Thistle fans. As things stand we have a support that is thoroughly sick of Scottish football, maybe to the extent of some people walking away completely. But what would have been much worse would be if that feeling extended to the club itself. And I think it would have, if the club had thrown in the towel, particularly after being offered the support to challenge.

By challenging the perceived injustice Thistle kept its own fans on board. In the long term I think that's the most important thing to the future of the club.

By the way, I would not have been in favour of Thistle doing something immoral or just purely spiteful simply to satisfy the fans. Which I think other clubs have stooped to in the past. I don't think we've done that; we've only fought our case, which is fair enough in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, allyo said:

In my view the moral high ground isn't very important. Acting morally is, but that's a different thing.

What Covid has demonstrated very clearly is that Scottish football clubs rely very heavily on their fans. By far Thistle's most important audience is Thistle fans. As things stand we have a support that is thoroughly sick of Scottish football, maybe to the extent of some people walking away completely. But what would have been much worse would be if that feeling extended to the club itself. And I think it would have, if the club had thrown in the towel, particularly after being offered the support to challenge.

By challenging the perceived injustice Thistle kept its own fans on board. In the long term I think that's the most important thing to the future of the club.

By the way, I would not have been in favour of Thistle doing something immoral or just purely spiteful simply to satisfy the fans. Which I think other clubs have stooped to in the past. I don't think we've done that; we've only fought our case, which is fair enough in my opinion.

And if this ends up costing us money, weakening our player budget for the promotion push?

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Just now, Woodstock Jag said:

And if this ends up costing us money, weakening our player budget for the promotion push?

I only want what's best for the club. As LIB said, we'll never really know the true cost of this vs the true cost of not pursuing it, and potentially being left with a completely disenfranchised support who'd forever look back and say, we could have fought it but we just didn't bother.

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1 minute ago, allyo said:

I only want what's best for the club. As LIB said, we'll never really know the true cost of this vs the true cost of not pursuing it, and potentially being left with a completely disenfranchised support who'd forever look back and say, we could have fought it but we just didn't bother.

I'm afraid I just don't buy that anything more than a handful of fans are in the position of going to Firhill where permitted this season who would not have done so had we left Hearts to their own devices.

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