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Thistle v Forfar


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The manager picks and trains a team (or should) that should mean he is in charge of recruitment. Not a DoF. Too many examples of DoF not respecting the managers wishes and imposing their players and their beliefs onto a manager who ultimately carry’s the can for failure, they get fired not the DoF.

Hearts, Celtic, St Mirren, Livingston are all recent examples of it failing. I know not of one in Scotland where it works.

Scouting network is key, decent coaching (fitness, tactics, motivation), and a good manager is all we need, anything else is another layer of unaccountability and will end up another job for the boys.

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Jobs for the boys is exactly what we have just now, we don't even have a network of scouts. 

As for coaching, fitness, tactics and motivation i don't think any of these are near to being decent, as much as i want us to get out of this league this season, i don't think McCall and co is who we need in charge next term but if we get promoted he will be ... 

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I’m with @Norgethistle here. We are a third tier team, why do we need a DoF? As a Club progressing to fan ownership, we can’t afford a top heavy management structure - especially with ongoing concerns about when gate income might re-commence.

Maybe it’s back to basics. A Manager plus an Assistant Manager/Coach. Two salaries. Put any savings into a part-time scout

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3 hours ago, sandy said:

I’m with @Norgethistle here. We are a third tier team, why do we need a DoF? As a Club progressing to fan ownership, we can’t afford a top heavy management structure - especially with ongoing concerns about when gate income might re-commence.

Maybe it’s back to basics. A Manager plus an Assistant Manager/Coach. Two salaries. Put any savings into a part-time scout

The club as whole needs to get back to basics.

Ive seen folk posting on Twitter that before the club considers replacing the manager it needs to decide what sort of club it wants to be.

This IMHO is one of the reasons we fail and allow failure,  we are a football club that needs to win matches and trade at a profit. 

Nothing else.

 

Im not sure if fans want us to be a vegan club that plays football, a friendly place to visit that has a football game taking place, a PR exercise for niceness that uses football matches to convey the message, or do they want a football team that wins? 

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3 hours ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

The unfortunate thing is that McCall won't quit and we probably don't have the cash to pay him and his 2 buddies off.

Correct on both counts. Can't think of too many people in any job who would resign voluntarily. 

Edited by dl1971
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18 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Much as I see it. I don't think we could justify a Manager, an Assistant Manager, a Director of Football and a Chief Exec. Either the Chief Exec duties would have to be absorbed by the Board or the Director of Football would have to double as Chief Exec. The latter being in our case the more likely option. For clarity I'm not suggesting that should happen as such.

The benefit of a Director of Football/Head Coach set up is fairly obvious. A football manager has to be more than simply a motivational coach with tactical knowledge. He has to have a wider know how re budgets, contracts, scouting etc plus possess a wide range of contacts. I'm certain many a talented young coach has been lost to the game simply as he didn't possess a broad enough range of management skills. Of course it goes without saying the Director of Football has to possess all the skills the Head Coach lacks. Otherwise you end up with a Levein/Cathro situation. Today Cathro is a well respected senior coach at Wolves, so you can guess who was at fault in that partnership. 

I don't disagree with the above given our present position as a League 1 Club. 

However as a League 1 Club we currently have in Post a CEO, a Manager and 2 Assistant Managers. A hierarchy that could be considered overweight even for a Championship Club and still the Football side of our Club is not working effectively! 

What I am proposing is I think modern and  the way forward.  I did not put any timescale on the restructuring of the Football Management Operation so let me clarify or amend my proposal a little by saying that we should work towards having the above in place and that is Director of Football, Head Coach, Assistant Head Coach by the time we get back to the PL. 

We have proved with disastrous consequences that recruitment cannot be left to the judgement of a single individual. Additionally I have no firm view of who should fill these positions. If fans don't want McCall that's OK by me. All I ask is that incumbents have the necessary skills, judgement and other attributes needed for the roles including in the case of a young manager, the potential to grow with experience! 

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24 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

 

We have proved with disastrous consequences that recruitment cannot be left to the judgement of a single individual. Additionally I have no firm view of who should fill these positions. If fans don't want McCall that's OK by me. All I ask is that incumbents have the necessary skills, judgement and other attributes needed for the roles including in the case of a young manager, the potential to grow with experience! 

Our recruitment has nose dived since our current CEO took up his position over 3 managers managers now

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21 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

The manager picks and trains a team (or should) that should mean he is in charge of recruitment. Not a DoF. Too many examples of DoF not respecting the managers wishes and imposing their players and their beliefs onto a manager who ultimately carry’s the can for failure, they get fired not the DoF.

Hearts, Celtic, St Mirren, Livingston are all recent examples of it failing. I know not of one in Scotland where it works.

Scouting network is key, decent coaching (fitness, tactics, motivation), and a good manager is all we need, anything else is another layer of unaccountability and will end up another job for the boys.

What we need is money. We have never had any., then you can have a good manager and good coaching.

 

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40 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Standards have been worse

You're talking quality not numbers? I'm honestly not sure what you meant by "nose-dived" as we seem to have had a good few appointments in the time the current CEO has been in position! Whether they have improved the situation at Firhill is the question I would ask.

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12 minutes ago, policemans whistle said:

What we need is money. We have never had any., then you can have a good manager and good coaching.

 

We've had no debt, which is a hell of a lot more than most clubs in Scotland. In a rich list, we would not be in the 3rd tier.

In my opinion we are never going to make much progress until the ownership of the club is settled. We need direction from the top

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1 minute ago, Dick Dastardly said:

We've had no debt, which is a hell of a lot more than most clubs in Scotland. In a rich list, we would not be in the 3rd tier.

In my opinion we are never going to make much progress until the ownership of the club is settled. We need direction from the top

... or maybe the bottom?

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See it differently.

Behaving like a club with aspirations and not getting results are not linked.

I don't see how not treating the players like professionals and having a weakened managerial structure will make us win more games.

"If we don't go to Spain for pre-season, sack half the management (or all of them according to some), go to the bare bones and have a manager, assistant and a scout, we'll be better off". 

Do you think turning the club into an Airdrie, will benefit us in the long term?

What exactly will we do with all of the massive amounts of money saved during the process that sends us back to the good old days? Get another player in and one on loan?

You cannot save your way to the prize and as far as I can tell, we are set up to invest in players as required.

There may be many reasons we are where we are, but none of them are because we're trying to act like a professional club.

Whilst we're not the team we want to be, I'm at the very least, happy that we continue to try and be that team.  

Edited by CotterJag
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8 hours ago, CotterJag said:

See it differently.

Behaving like a club with aspirations and not getting results are not linked.

I don't see how not treating the players like professionals and having a weakened managerial structure will make us win more games.

"If we don't go to Spain for pre-season, sack half the management (or all of them according to some), go to the bare bones and have a manager, assistant and a scout, we'll be better off". 

Do you think turning the club into an Airdrie, will benefit us in the long term?

What exactly will we do with all of the massive amounts of money saved during the process that sends us back to the good old days? Get another player in and one on loan?

You cannot save your way to the prize and as far as I can tell, we are set up to invest in players as required.

There may be many reasons we are where we are, but none of them are because we're trying to act like a professional club.

Whilst we're not the team we want to be, I'm at the very least, happy that we continue to try and be that team.  

There is acting professional and having ambitions and there is pie in the sky way above our station.

We have probably the 10 to 15th biggest set ups in Scotland now, bigger than any club in our league, most in Championship (out with Hearts) and possibly bigger than Accies and Livi. Now folk want a Director of Football too!!!

Throwing more bodies at a problem doesn’t sort the problem it merely makes the problem more expensive 

 

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3 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

There is acting professional and having ambitions and there is pie in the sky way above our station.

We have probably the 10 to 15th biggest set ups in Scotland now, bigger than any club in our league, most in Championship (out with Hearts) and possibly bigger than Accies and Livi. Now folk want a Director of Football too!!!

Throwing more bodies at a problem doesn’t sort the problem it merely makes the problem more expensive 

 

So in order to improve on our current situation, the answer is to regress?

If we were in debt there could be an argument for that but I don't think there's an argument that supports improvement, by returning to the 1980's.

We've played the cards we've been dealt as well as any and are able to have the set up we have because of that.

I don't think we should throw it all away because we've lost a few games. It just doesn't make sense to me. 

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12 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Throwing more bodies at a problem doesn’t sort the problem it merely makes the problem more expensive 

I'm not making any great point as such. Just to say that a comment from the usually very guarded, Archie, in today's match preview may be worth highlighting. Discussing Tuesday night's game AA mentions In adjoining sentences the words "Forfar" and " our "Sports Science Department".

I, tho',  for one would like to say that I was rather impressed by Forfar's overall fitness. Thought they easily matched us in that area throughout the ninety minutes. I think it would be churlish of us not to congratulate the Station Park Sports Science Department for turning out their lads at that level of fitness.

Edited by lady-isobel-barnett
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Good debate - but don't misunderstand my argument! 

Whether or not the appointment of a Director of Football finds favour I am actually proposing a restructuring of the Management of the football side of the club not an increase in the number of Management Staff.

I have already ageed with the point we are top heavy in this area. What we need is people with the correct experience and personal  attributes to fill the roles I am proposing and more importantly clarity and definition in the roles they occupy. This would benefit the individuals themselves but also  establish clear lines of responsibility and accountability.  For example, does anyone actually know what individual roles and responsibilities  Archibald and Scally actually have beyond the generic title of Assistant Manager? 

I certainly don't see this as a jobs for the boys and I believe Mc Call will resign as a matter of honour if  he is appointed DoF and no place is  found for his two assistants - whom he brought to the club. 

I see such a restructuring as an opportunity to bring a breath of fresh air into the club. 

I also believe we have a  new Chair in waiting in Les Gray. A Thistle fan and currently occupying this role at Hamilton Accies. I am not though prepared to suggest we replace the current Chair as looking at her performance objectivly she appears to have handled the non- footballing side of the Club well - we are as one poster said Debt Free and this didn't happen by itself! She does though need to improve on her choice of managers. 

I await a few upper-cuts to the jaw for the last comment. 

 

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37 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

Good debate - but don't misunderstand my argument! 

She does though need to improve on her choice of managers. 

I await a few upper-cuts to the jaw for the last comment. 

 

Well as she has only employed one manager I suppose you could say her record is 100% negative (or positive).

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47 minutes ago, exiledjag said:

Good debate - but don't misunderstand my argument! 

Whether or not the appointment of a Director of Football finds favour I am actually proposing a restructuring of the Management of the football side of the club not an increase in the number of Management Staff.

I have already ageed with the point we are top heavy in this area. What we need is people with the correct experience and personal  attributes to fill the roles I am proposing and more importantly clarity and definition in the roles they occupy. This would benefit the individuals themselves but also  establish clear lines of responsibility and accountability.  For example, does anyone actually know what individual roles and responsibilities  Archibald and Scally actually have beyond the generic title of Assistant Manager? 

I certainly don't see this as a jobs for the boys and I believe Mc Call will resign as a matter of honour if  he is appointed DoF and no place is  found for his two assistants - whom he brought to the club. 

I see such a restructuring as an opportunity to bring a breath of fresh air into the club. 

I also believe we have a  new Chair in waiting in Les Gray. A Thistle fan and currently occupying this role at Hamilton Accies. I am not though prepared to suggest we replace the current Chair as looking at her performance objectivly she appears to have handled the non- footballing side of the Club well - we are as one poster said Debt Free and this didn't happen by itself! She does though need to improve on her choice of managers. 

I await a few upper-cuts to the jaw for the last comment. 

 

Although a Thistle fan, why woulde Gray leave a Premiership club for a flailing Third tier club?

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2 hours ago, exiledjag said:

Good debate - but don't misunderstand my argument! 

Whether or not the appointment of a Director of Football finds favour I am actually proposing a restructuring of the Management of the football side of the club not an increase in the number of Management Staff.

I have already ageed with the point we are top heavy in this area. What we need is people with the correct experience and personal  attributes to fill the roles I am proposing and more importantly clarity and definition in the roles they occupy. This would benefit the individuals themselves but also  establish clear lines of responsibility and accountability.  For example, does anyone actually know what individual roles and responsibilities  Archibald and Scally actually have beyond the generic title of Assistant Manager? 

I certainly don't see this as a jobs for the boys and I believe Mc Call will resign as a matter of honour if  he is appointed DoF and no place is  found for his two assistants - whom he brought to the club. 

I see such a restructuring as an opportunity to bring a breath of fresh air into the club. 

I also believe we have a  new Chair in waiting in Les Gray. A Thistle fan and currently occupying this role at Hamilton Accies. I am not though prepared to suggest we replace the current Chair as looking at her performance objectivly she appears to have handled the non- footballing side of the Club well - we are as one poster said Debt Free and this didn't happen by itself! She does though need to improve on her choice of managers. 

I await a few upper-cuts to the jaw for the last comment. 

 

Not disagreeing with some of what you say, but does it matter if we don’t know Archibald and Scally’s roles and responsibilities, providing that they do.

As for the chair, like it or not, we are heading for fan ownership and as this is Colin Weir’s wish, this is going to happen. There is no alternative. Therefore the board will be voted by the fans.

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Matt Slater

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Thank God we ended up with Jacqui Low still running the club, the Jags Trust mark 2 telling us that Chien Lee and Paul Conway would turn the ground into flats, Ian McCall and all his mates running the team into the ground, a bloody full-time team 4th in League 1. Thank God we don't have a training ground, we have a pile of weeds and dirt behind one goal and we don't even have a scouting network.  If you join the dots together from google searches, Martin Christie our one time "Head of Recruitment" has quietly left and is now at ******* Forfar doing the same job according to his Linkedin page. Nothing on the club website or the directory regarding a replacement or "restructuring" or changes or nothing. 

I give it another year in this league before the begging buckets are out again. We are an utter joke. 

 

 

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