Big Announcement

[javeajag]

2 minutes ago, BowenBoys said:

One Black Cat?

Well no …. A smart bengal !

[Norgethistle]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

Absolutely …..as there is no debt…. but let’s assume £700k  debt, budget deficit assume £300k and add in £1m for liabilities … so £2m worst case …. Asset £6m 

my cat can make that deal work 

 

 

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

Absolutely …..as there is no debt…. but let’s assume £700k  debt, budget deficit assume £300k and add in £1m for liabilities … so £2m worst case …. Asset £6m 

my cat can make that deal work 

 

Assets valued at £4.7 million, that includes players etc.  But resale value of that is a fraction of that. 
Anyway it’s not lack of assets that kills a business it’s cash flow, if a trading loss or unable to make maintenance costs then that’s cash flow ran out

[Norgethistle]

This was posted on Facebook and makes sense of Due Diligence 

 

Why is due diligence important? Some people have been querying just how necessary due diligence is in regard to the fan takeover.  It’s a fair and reasonable question.  I asked a friend of mine about this today who runs his own accountancy firm and has a few decades experience behind him in this field.  Here’s what he said:

“Here’s some things that I have found out in due diligence that even the sellers didn’t know. 

1. They didn’t own the shares 
2. They were on a vat scheme they were not entitled to be
3. They were on a vat scheme they were not entitled to be (again)
4. They had paid dividends instead of salary to an employee resulting in underpaid tax of several hundred thousand
5.  They were under insured to a material extent 

Plus many more.“

Not for minute saying that any of these things are going on just now at PTFC. But I think it shows quite clearly why this is so important.  

I would be absolutely delighted if due diligence gave the club a clean bill of health.  It would mean the fans could take over the club with confidence and peace of mind.  It would also be a complete vindication of the current ownership and would allow them to depart the club with their heads held high.  If any of them wanted to stand for the board again their chances of election would be extremely favourable as well you would think.  So if everything at the club is fine, let the due diligence happen.  The longer the club stand in the way of this, the uncertainty and rumours will only get worse.  

If there are problems of any nature, be honest with the fans.  We’ve proved so many times over the years that we will do everything in our power to help the club.  Be it financially or otherwise.  What I personally could never forgive is dishonesty and diversion which could put the future of the club at risk.  

The current owners legacy is still in their own hands.  It’s not too late to turn this situation around but time is running out.

[sandy]

Totally agree @Norgethistle

[scotty]

There are a couple of things that I am, shall we say, uncertain about when it comes to the Jags Foundation. The first is that it seems to have developed into an organisation which has the sole  purpose of fitting in to what 3BC deems appropriate to hand the shares over to. In my mind what TJF should have started out as was a mass movement of Jags fans who were wanting to take the club into their hands. There seemed to be too much time spent appeasing 3BC and the board and not enough effort put into recruiting fans to the organisation and then representing their interests. This has ended up with the fans' organisation looking as though there is little support.

Colin Weir bought a majority of shares in order to hand them over to the fans. The fans should be demanding that this happens and demanding it is done in a transparent manner. Due diligence needs to be part of that process and something that TJF need, in order to know what is requierd in order to take the club forward.

Refusing due diligence seems to be just another stalling tactic for 3BC to hold on to the share holding for as long as possible and the longer it goes on the more reason there is to believe that there is some  underhand motive behind it.

So how about it THJ. Is it not time to start a mass recruitment campaign but with the objective of demanding that Colin Weir's wishes are carried out?

[javeajag]

14 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

This was posted on Facebook and makes sense of Due Diligence 

 

Why is due diligence important? Some people have been querying just how necessary due diligence is in regard to the fan takeover.  It’s a fair and reasonable question.  I asked a friend of mine about this today who runs his own accountancy firm and has a few decades experience behind him in this field.  Here’s what he said:

“Here’s some things that I have found out in due diligence that even the sellers didn’t know. 

1. They didn’t own the shares 
2. They were on a vat scheme they were not entitled to be
3. They were on a vat scheme they were not entitled to be (again)
4. They had paid dividends instead of salary to an employee resulting in underpaid tax of several hundred thousand
5.  They were under insured to a material extent 

Plus many more.“

Not for minute saying that any of these things are going on just now at PTFC. But I think it shows quite clearly why this is so important.  

I would be absolutely delighted if due diligence gave the club a clean bill of health.  It would mean the fans could take over the club with confidence and peace of mind.  It would also be a complete vindication of the current ownership and would allow them to depart the club with their heads held high.  If any of them wanted to stand for the board again their chances of election would be extremely favourable as well you would think.  So if everything at the club is fine, let the due diligence happen.  The longer the club stand in the way of this, the uncertainty and rumours will only get worse.  

If there are problems of any nature, be honest with the fans.  We’ve proved so many times over the years that we will do everything in our power to help the club.  Be it financially or otherwise.  What I personally could never forgive is dishonesty and diversion which could put the future of the club at risk.  

The current owners legacy is still in their own hands.  It’s not too late to turn this situation around but time is running out.

In this instance D D is only relevant if your are going to walk away from fans owning the club. You are not going to lower the price as you are getting it for nothing. So if you find something bad or unexpected TJF would walk away from fan ownership, if your not going to do that then you can do your audit the day after you get ownership. 

so I’m not clear are people saying that if they find a problem say with the roof if the JHS they would walk away from fan ownership ? If not when you find that out is marginal.

if the current directors do not know the financial and operational position of the club they should resign.

[Jordanhill Jag]

On 3/27/2022 at 6:50 PM, Norgethistle said:

 

Assets valued at £4.7 million, that includes players etc.  But resale value of that is a fraction of that. 
Anyway it’s not lack of assets that kills a business it’s cash flow, if a trading loss or unable to make maintenance costs then that’s cash flow ran out

It has and always will be about Cashflow at PTFC - anyone who doesn't grasp that you have to wonder if they are actually a Thistle Fan - its never been a secret that we struggle with CashFlow  

 

 

[javeajag]

7 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

It has and always will be about Cashflow at PTFC - anyone who doesn't grasp that you have to wonder if they are actually a Thistle Fan - its never been a secret that we struggle with CashFlow  

 

 

Agreed…..and the current directors must know the actual financial situation 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

It has and always will be about Cashflow at PTFC - anyone who doesn't grasp that you have to wonder if they are actually a Thistle Fan 

I never knew that a pre-requisite of being a Jags supporter you needed an understanding in basic accountancy. The Junior Jags must be having fun these days. 

 

[jaggymct]

While Due Dilligence being done is the ideal scenario pre transfer I have always felt that the most important thing is to get the shares transferred to the fans.

As Javeajag says full dd can then be done immediately to asses the situation and necesarry decisions taken then re finances.

Hopefully there will be a change of heart by the board and 3BC and it can be done prior to any handover but if not I would still want TJF to have the shares transferred over to them.

[Dick Dastardly]

19 hours ago, scotty said:

Refusing due diligence seems to be just another stalling tactic for 3BC to hold on to the share holding for as long as possible and the longer it goes on the more reason there is to believe that there is some  underhand motive behind it.

So ..... is it that we have a ticking time bomb that 3BC are wanting to get rid of to the fans, or is this about assets that 3BC want to hold onto for as long as possible ?

It can't be both

[Garscube Road End 2]

1 hour ago, jaggymct said:

While Due Dilligence being done is the ideal scenario pre transfer I have always felt that the most important thing is to get the shares transferred to the fans.

As Javeajag says full dd can then be done immediately to asses the situation and necesarry decisions taken then re finances.

Hopefully there will be a change of heart by the board and 3BC and it can be done prior to any handover but if not I would still want TJF to have the shares transferred over to them.

I'd DD isn't performed( allowed to be performed ) if I was on the TJF board I would not be a party to the transfer of the shares. There could well be hidden liabilities which TJF would have to take on.

 

The fact that 3BC are refusing DD, is giving concern that something is being concealed.  Why not let a DD be performed if there is nothing to hide?

 

And if there are  substantial liabilities then as mentioned previously there would be severe problems with cash flow.

 

My opinion is that if DD is not granted then TJF should walk away from it.

[Garscube Road End 2]

6 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

So ..... is it that we have a ticking time bomb that 3BC are wanting to get rid of to the fans, or is this about assets that 3BC want to hold onto for as long as possible ?

It can't be both

Either way, it stinks.

[fifexile]

I'm in no position to comment on the ins and outs of all this but to me the longer the current Board delay providing meaningful information whether in a DD or other independent way, the more I become concerned that they are trying to hand over a club which may be debt free as promised  but one facing huge costs that couldn't be met by a fan ownership scheme

Edited March 31, 2022 by fifexile

[Garscube Road End 2]

6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

It has and always will be about Cashflow at PTFC - anyone who doesn't grasp that you have to wonder if they are actually a Thistle Fan - its never been a secret that we struggle with CashFlow  

 

 

This. We permanently live hand to mouth. Occasionally we hat a decent pay day, with the sale of a player. It has always been Thistle's way. And frankly with our support base constantly shrinking we are a slowly dying club. 

[iain]

I don't usually post, just read an absorb the 'expert' views  I'm an older supporter like most of us. I've been  following the Jags for well over 60 years, and most of all  I  really don't want to lose my club, whatever division we're in.

So a couple of points and genuine questions ....

I'm not totally sure I understand what occurs with due diligence but it seems sensible  to find out the financial situation  as soon as possible, so realistic plans can be made.   

I don't understand why 3bc should refuse dd.  What can be wrong that isn't half expected and if there is something wrong we have to find out about it sometime. 

In defence of 3bc why would they  want to hang on to the shares which have been bought for the fans. This is Thistle not Barcelona. I don't understand what they can get from this except a lot of grief.

I've joined TJF and paid my money. I'm not particularly wanting to have my voice heard over others but I'm disappointed with the amount of information and consultation that has taken place so  far. It all seems a bit repetitive and slight in content.  If we own the club shouldn't we be meeting to make some important decisions by this time.  Has the final format been decided? Did I miss it?  What is it? The Motherwell model seems to be working so far for them.  Does that model fit/not fit with PTFC?  I admit I may have missed this in some of the emails from TJF  However I'm not the only one.

The figure of 1000 members for TJF  is being used as a necessary goal or hurdle. Why is that? If we only get 500 members then that's what we have, and we should proceed with that number. Anyway I think more will join when the transfer occurs and there is a better recruitment campaign. At the moment it just seems to be all very negative and defensive.

 Finally if it is all doom and gloom financially wouldn't we still want to transfer the club to the fans and then if we think it necessary,  we can actively look to recruit new owners who would invest their buy in cash and maybe more in the club.

Finally, I suppose I should admit that I don't really understand why anyone would not want to have fan ownership over being owned by an individual or group.  But I suppose that is just my politics.

 

[Fawlty Towers]

March Newsletter:

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/TJFMarchNewsletter.pdf

[Jaggernaut]

My take on this so far (as an ignoramus):

The fact that 3BC are refusing DD, is giving concern that something is being concealed.  Why not let a DD be performed if there is nothing to hide?

----Is it normal/legal for one party seeking to transfer ownership to refuse DD? Why, if there are no contraindications, would they refuse?

My opinion is that if DD is not granted then TJF should walk away from it.

----Is it accepted/normal practice that one of the parties in the transaction can refuse to "grant" DD? Again, why would they refuse this?

Dunno if this analogy is valid, but imagine I wanted to sell you my house. You want an objective (i.e. third party, professional) evaluation of its value, advantages, potential costs......

But I refuse to allow you to do this. 

Would you buy from me?

I wouldn't, even though I'm the owner! I wouldn't even take it if it was offered gratis.

Now I've confused myself......

[Norgethistle]

36 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

March Newsletter:

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/TJFMarchNewsletter.pdf

Fan ownership will get us hot water in the toilets remember “  The sky is the limit. The only limit is that of your imagination.“

[sandy]

15 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Fan ownership will get us hot water in the toilets remember “  The sky is the limit. The only limit is that of your imagination.“

It might even get the pigeon shit off the seats 

[javeajag]

46 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

My take on this so far (as an ignoramus):

The fact that 3BC are refusing DD, is giving concern that something is being concealed.  Why not let a DD be performed if there is nothing to hide?

----Is it normal/legal for one party seeking to transfer ownership to refuse DD? Why, if there are no contraindications, would they refuse?

My opinion is that if DD is not granted then TJF should walk away from it.

----Is it accepted/normal practice that one of the parties in the transaction can refuse to "grant" DD? Again, why would they refuse this?

Dunno if this analogy is valid, but imagine I wanted to sell you my house. You want an objective (i.e. third party, professional) evaluation of its value, advantages, potential costs......

But I refuse to allow you to do this. 

Would you buy from me?

I wouldn't, even though I'm the owner! I wouldn't even take it if it was offered gratis.

Now I've confused myself......

It’s a common fallacy that DD is always done, it is mostly but not always. Warren Buffet has done some of the worlds biggest deals without doing it . 

[Norgethistle]

17 minutes ago, sandy said:

It might even get the pigeon shit off the seats 

Even the seats that work? 

[belfastjag]

I haven't signed up to TJF yet. I'm not really in favour of fan ownership for Thistle. This flies in the face of what is happening with Crusaders in NI. It is a member(fans) owned club at the moment. At an EGM last week it was voted to sell 70% of our club to an "altruistic" company. Out of 510 members 36 voted no. I was one. This will get us an investment and opportunities to source new income streams. The board (mostly volunteers) who have run our club for the past 20 years have done a brilliant job. We were a basket case. In 20 years it's been  unprecedented success on the park, and a ground to be proud of off it. I felt a little disloyal voting against the boards strong recommendation. The point I'm labouring over here, is that in my opinion it's horses for courses. For me it's Starmer's smell test. This doesn't smell right for Thistle as selling didn't smell right for the hatchetmen. I don't believe Thistle have the supporter base or volunteer skills to take this  forward. I don't think the time is right. I accept my knowledge of the folk on the TJF board is nil.

Tomorrow night it's a cup semi at Windsor Park. 11.30 boat to Cairnryan and then Scottish grandson no 2's first visit to Firhill.  

[sandy]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

It’s a common fallacy that DD is always done, it is mostly but not always. Warren Buffet has done some of the worlds biggest deals without doing it . 

Warren Buffet could easily absorb the cost of pitch remedial work and stand repairs. I’m not so sure our fan base would thank you for suggesting we skip DD and inherit costly work. 

[Garscube Road End 2]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

It’s a common fallacy that DD is always done, it is mostly but not always. Warren Buffet has done some of the worlds biggest deals without doing it . 

Maybe so. But he maybe has had the finance to worry about it. Will TJF have the finance to tackle any liabilities. I think not. Cash flow, all about the cash flow. Which, quite frankly, with Thistle it is a trickle rather than  a flow. And how on earth you can relate TJF to a multi billionaire is utterly staggering.