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5 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

I can't think of an instance when someone who is so keen to offload something has made it so hard for someone who wants to own said thing.

3BC may not want to own the shares but it certainly looks like "they" want to control whoever does!

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34 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

I would have thought the Jags Foundation would have put out some sort of ‘response’ to todays PTFC website statement on the JF site.  They did with the 09/04/22 one, on the same day it emerged. But, there’s nothing.  Okay,  The Jags Foundation ISN’T  mentioned in the PTFC statement specifically, but the accusation  is made (without alluding to who precisely they are talking about) that some are being ‘divisive.’ Then, there is an invitation for  ‘parties’ (fans) to come forward to be considered for the shares, which 3BCs says it wants to get on with passing on imminently. Today’s PTFC statement seems anything but conciliatory. TJF are a democratic organisation with leaders elected and accountable to a large number of supporters. There  is NO other comparable organisation representing the supporters  yet 3BCs seems keen to stress it is looking for one, and as TJF is NOT mentioned, you have to assume TJF is NOT one they want to consider! If that does not require a response, at the present time, I don’t know what does!

Is it not practically difficult for the Jags Foundation to respond when in the middle of an election campaign? One leadership group has resigned and the next is yet to be appointed. 

I suspect that this is the precise reason for the timing of this rather petty announcement.

Edited by partickthedog
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Nothing tawdry about it big chap - it’s all pure legit above board!

Monday 23rd May, 2022 at 11:39am The Club has today received the following update from Three Black Cats in relation to fan ownership, which it has been asked to share with fans:

Dear Jacqui Low (@PTFC), I’d be really grateful if you/me (delete as appropriate) could stick out another statement on your/my (delete as appropriate) website to let the fans know of your/my  (delete as appropriate) intentions. As those pesky ones that wanted full disclosure of my/your  (delete as appropriate) finances are in a state of flux at the moment make sure to tell them in that statement of yours/mine (delete as appropriate) that the clock is ticking and will soon run out. Love your/my shoes, best wishes, Jacqui Low (@3BC).

 

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1 hour ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

I would have thought the Jags Foundation would have put out some sort of ‘response’ to todays PTFC website statement on the JF site.  They did with the 09/04/22 one, on the same day it emerged. But, there’s nothing.  Okay,  The Jags Foundation ISN’T  mentioned in the PTFC statement specifically, but the accusation  is made (without alluding to who precisely they are talking about) that some are being ‘divisive.’ Then, there is an invitation for  ‘parties’ (fans) to come forward to be considered for the shares, which 3BCs says it wants to get on with passing on imminently. Today’s PTFC statement seems anything but conciliatory. TJF are a democratic organisation with leaders elected and accountable to a large number of supporters. There  is NO other comparable organisation representing the supporters  yet 3BCs seems keen to stress it is looking for one, and as TJF is NOT mentioned, you have to assume TJF is NOT one they want to consider! If that does not require a response, at the present time, I don’t know what does!

There is currently no Jags Foundation Board in any position to make any comment. It's the very definition of a lame duck Board. 

They are in place solely to facilitate the current election at the end of which there will be an elected, as opposed to appointed, Jags Foundation Board for the first time. 

They'll have a mandate from the membership to carry out their election statements. 

TJF will be the only democratic elected body representing Partick Thistle fans. 

They will be faced by an almighty, and immediate, challenge.

3BC have already intimated that the shareholding won't be transferred to TJF. 

TJF will be tasked with trying to facilitate a softening of that stance while also not softening their stance* that a formal Due Diligence exercise needs to be completed before they will accept the gift of the majority shareholding. 

I don't know how you square that circle. 

I certainly don't know how you square that circle within the timescale that the 3BC statement today suggests the shareholding transfer will take place in. 

There are three fans' organisations. 

The Jags Foundation 

The Jags Trust

The Partick Thistle Trust

As of today, May 23rd 2022, my own very personal opinion is that none, in the short term at least should receive the majority shareholding in our club. 

The first, it has already been said, won't receive the majority shareholding and not insubstantial work needs to be done to establish any kind of relationship with 3BC. 

The second backed the Chien Lee takeover and played, perhaps indirectly and unintentionally , a part in the return of the David Beattie led Board. As a result it doesn't, to me, seem credible that it will become home to the majority shareholding. 

The third isn't a democratic fans organisation and limits its membership. 

IMO for genuine and meaningful fan ownership of Partick Thistle to take place these three organisations need to become altogether much more closely aligned. Perhaps create one just one fans body. 

*I'm working on the assumption that there will be a Jags for Change majority on TJB once the election has been completed. 

Apologies for the multiple edits. 

Edited by Tom Hosie
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5 minutes ago, Tom Hosie said:

*I'm working on the assumption that there will be a Jags for Change majority on TJB once the election has been completed. 

Delighted to have your vote, Tom ;)

As you rightly say, no one is going to presume to speak for TJF until the election results are announced (I hope) on Thursday morning.

Let's see where the lay of the land is later this week. The election has been an important process for demonstrating the representative credentials of TJF.

It strikes me that it would be very difficult indeed for another body to demonstrate equal or better fan engagement on the timescales envisaged by the statement.

I think there's the opportunity for a reset here. Ignore the rhetoric and what is clear is that 3BC wants a swift transition to fan-ownership.

Despite the fall-out of the last couple of months, TJF remains the only and the obvious candidate to deliver that goal.

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In all of this, let’s not forget the reasons given for not selecting TJF before were (according to 3BC) around ‘fit and proper’ aspects such as business experience. 

By the simple mechanism of democratic elections of new TJF Board Members, the blend of skills/energy/experience will be different to before. If it was an apple before, it will be a pear after.  It logically follows that 3BC would re-assess the suitability of TJF. 

Perhaps submitting a ‘note of interest’ now and following that up after the election result with a firm commitment by the new TJF Board would be a useful and constructive approach. 

Edited by sandy
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4 hours ago, sandy said:

In all of this, let’s not forget the reasons given for not selecting TJF before were (according to 3BC) around ‘fit and proper’ aspects such as business experience. 

By the simple mechanism of democratic elections of new TJF Board Members, the blend of skills/energy/experience will be different to before. If it was an apple before, it will be a pear after.  It logically follows that 3BC would re-assess the suitability of TJF. 

Perhaps submitting a ‘note of interest’ now and following that up after the election result with a firm commitment by the new TJF Board would be a useful and constructive approach. 

Actually the 3BC statement of April 9th made no reference to "business experience" and a lack of it as being a factor in TJF not progressing towards passing a fit and proper test. 

I took that statement to mean that the organisation itself wasn't progressing towards that goal rather than the individuals themselves not doing so. 

Perhaps a complete change in TJF Board can alter that but time would appear to be against them. Especially as the Due Diligence impasse looks to me insurmountable. Both 3BC and the likely majority on the new Jags Foundation Board seem pretty entrenched in their respective positions. Indeed reading the April 9th statement again this morning, it seems to have been a major factor in the process breaking down in the first place. 

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I think we need to be realistic and recognise that TJF is a dead duck. For whatever reason, 3BC are not going to be giving the shares to them in whatever form the board takes. The reaction to the open letter tells me that they are not in any position to deal with 3BC on any level. Without the shares, what purpose does TJF have ? It may be the most democratic body, but that doesn't give it any preferred status and to my mind they are out of the running

I think it is time to bury the hatchets and get behind one of the other bodies, so that we can influence their decision making process. The alternative is that the different fan groups will keep bickering and the infighting will prevent anything meaningful happening. I hope that the new TJF board recognise this as they are the ones with the revenue stream that could still be of benefit to the club as a whole, even if they don't have any direct control. 

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7 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Delighted to have your vote, Tom ;)

As you rightly say, no one is going to presume to speak for TJF until the election results are announced (I hope) on Thursday morning.

Let's see where the lay of the land is later this week. The election has been an important process for demonstrating the representative credentials of TJF.

It strikes me that it would be very difficult indeed for another body to demonstrate equal or better fan engagement on the timescales envisaged by the statement.

I think there's the opportunity for a reset here. Ignore the rhetoric and what is clear is that 3BC wants a swift transition to fan-ownership.

Despite the fall-out of the last couple of months, TJF remains the only and the obvious candidate to deliver that goal.

Sorry to disappoint WJ :-) 

I don't disagree with your post above. Quite the reverse. 

TJF is the only, or will be, democratic body representing the fans. It's potentially the most credible organisation to receive the shareholding. They are my preference to receive the shareholding. 

I fear though that that ship has sailed. Or at least is too far from shore to get back to port on time. 

My hope is that 3BC don't  now rush to hand over the shareholding. That there is still time for a meaningful fan owned Partick Thistle. If it takes even longer.  If it needs to be something other than TJF then so be it. This is about the long term future of our Club

Edited by Tom Hosie
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10 minutes ago, sandy said:

I struggle to understand where 3BC can go if TJF is a ‘dead duck’

Right now? Nowhere credible for a meaningful fan ownership. 

Which is why I hope the speed of the share transfer can now be slowed. Crazy I know after all this time to actually want to slow it down further. 

TJF is just sitting there. It is the most credible but unless there is a shift in the respective positions, or even a softening of one, either one, position, re Due Diligence it is IMO and with much regret a 'dead duck'. 

If the new Jags Foundation Board can reopen dialogue with 3BC that would be a massive and really positive, albeit, small step. 

Edited by Tom Hosie
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Things are not getting much clearer or straightforward so here's another far fetched scenario that has no truth or any basis of fact whatsoever.

 

Dear Three Black Cats,

I represent Partick Thistle fans and would be delighted to take those pesky shares off your hands, I've supported 'the Partick' for at least 4 years now (well I've watched a few games) and the club will definitely, absolutely be very safe in my hands.  I'm not fussed about any due diligence or about any other liabilities or hidden costs that there may be as I'm planning on selling up and moving the club to Broadwood as soon as I can anyway. Oops, scratch that last bit as it's supposed to be a secret!!

PS, I've got a mate :innocent2: who has some recent experience of running a football club thingy too so that should hopefully help seal the deal?

Yours sincerely

Mr (or Mrs) Definitely not connected to anyone currently at the club.

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7 minutes ago, sandy said:

Tom, we would all agree that meaningful fan ownership should be the outcome. Apart from issues like DD, what do you think 3BC would need to satisfy them? 

I honestly don't know. I think we somehow need to get past the DD issue first and I don't know how you do that. 

I have to stress at this point, I'm speaking entirely for myself here. 

What I'd like to see is a clear vision for what happens after the share transfer both short (a kind of first 100 days thing) and long term. And less about the mechanics about how the organisation will govern itself, as important as that is. 

The problem the old Jags Foundation Board had was that it was appointed and not elected. It didn't have any mandate to present a vision/plan for fan ownership. 

Maybe it's sole task should have been to get us to the point of having an elected, mandated, Board and then the discussions with 3BC begins re the timescale for the share transfer. 

Sorry, not articulating myself very well. 

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28 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

It’s a view and it’s your view, to which you’re entitled but I don’t agree with it. You seem to be asking the supporters group-the only democratic, accountable group to just roll over and dissolve themselves at the behest of 3BCs (which many feel amounts to one person ie Jacqui Low). And, then TJF can just hand over the money given by those same supporters, that they gave freely  in expectation of gaining some independent, democratic control of their own club-which we’re led to believe Colin Weir wanted as he was a supporter himself. And, in addition all the fans who wanted this outcome are supposed to just accept this and look on the people on the board who take over in a favourable light, without regretting their previous wish for genuine democratic control of their club has gone? 

The big problem for TJF is that they are unlikely to get any open door to discuss share transfer with 3BC. Firstly there was the open letter, which may not have intended to be, but certainly came over to me as being antagonistic towards 3BC. Although that was not sent from TJF, it was the likely new board who were the instigators. Secondly, there is an essence of "anti Jacqui Low" about TJF which I'm sure has been recognised by her. Again, that may not be the views of the new board, but you only need to look at the comments of those supporting TJF on this thread to see an "anti Jacqui Low" theme. Neither of those will do TJF any favours and I think it is highly unlikely that they will be the recipient of any shares directly from 3BC. 

That is why I say they are a "dead duck". The body was set up with a single purpose, to get the shares. Without those shares, they need to find a new purpose and I would much prefer if that was a positive one, rather than just rubbishing everything that whoever does get the shares does. 

Infighting between the fans groups is what will ultimately cause fan ownership to fail. 

Incidentally, I have not voted in the election. I did not vote for any of the Jags for Change candidates (for the reasons above) and I don't know anything about the others.

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11 minutes ago, sandy said:

Tom, we would all agree that meaningful fan ownership should be the outcome. Apart from issues like DD, what do you think 3BC would need to satisfy them? 

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I just wonder if this is just rather too bold a statement. It could, of course,  be true that every Thistle fan favours fan ownership but could it equally be true that it only refers to fans that use this site?  I'm not aware of many, if any, contributions expressing as differing view but there may well be a sizeable number (perhaps a majority?) of fans who don't want fan ownership or don't have a view at all.

Looking at the 3BC statement this caught my eye. 'By way of an update, since 9th April we have had one note of interest...'  Could this just be ambiguous enough to mean a bid to buy the shares from a 'rich individual'?  If I were a rich businessman looking to buy a football club (which I'm not!) I might take the view that PTFC was an easy target at the moment. 

 

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I agree about fan groups infighting, but that hasn’t happened with the TJF. The folk standing for election are only too aware of how unproductive that has been in the past.

Electioneering tends to give rise to strongly put views, I’m confident that things will return to normal once that stops. We have some very knowledgeable, mature & balanced people who will be in the mix when the votes have been counted. 

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3 minutes ago, a f kincaid said:

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I just wonder if this is just rather too bold a statement. It could, of course,  be true that every Thistle fan favours fan ownership but could it equally be true that it only refers to fans that use this site?  I'm not aware of many, if any, contributions expressing as differing view but there may well be a sizeable number (perhaps a majority?) of fans who don't want fan ownership or don't have a view at all.

Looking at the 3BC statement this caught my eye. 'By way of an update, since 9th April we have had one note of interest...'  Could this just be ambiguous enough to mean a bid to buy the shares from a 'rich individual'?  If I were a rich businessman looking to buy a football club (which I'm not!) I might take the view that PTFC was an easy target at the moment. 

 

Fair point Mr Advocate. There will be a whole spectrum of possible views out there. I myself wasn’t originally convinced that fan ownership could succeed. But I am optimistic now.

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I think it would be really helpful if people would stop referring to 3BC in the way they do….it gives the impression it’s an organization with a mind of its own when it’s not and it’s simply Jacqui low director as against Jacqui Low the Chairman of the club ….that is the most bizarre thing about the current situation….she puts out a statement as 3BC then the club relates her statement with a straight face 

when people say what will 3BC do or what do 3BC want…..change that to Jacqui low 

Edited by javeajag
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It’s probably the least bizarre and least important issue in all of this. Everyone knows Jackie Low sits on both bodies.  Let’s not create more reasons for fans to make it seem personal, 

Edited by sandy
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29 minutes ago, sandy said:

It’s probably the least bizarre and least important issue in all of this. Everyone knows Jackie Low sits on both bodies.  Let’s not create more reasons for fans to make it seem personal, 

If it’s not personal to her then what is it ?

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33 minutes ago, sandy said:

It’s probably the least bizarre and least important issue in all of this. Everyone knows Jackie Low sits on both bodies.  Let’s not create more reasons for fans to make it seem personal, 

Thinking about this how can it not be personal to her …..she IS 3BC as far as I know and I’m not aware any other human being that is involved ? and she represents them ( herself) as the chairman of the club  so it’s clearly personal …..what she says goes unless someone has evidence to the contrary?

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