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29 minutes ago, Jaggernaut said:

Why did these three black moggies playing their cards close to their chest (in a shop in Osaka) make me think of Firhill?

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“Well Duncan, you were right about the Forum. Its pretty dull these days. I mean to say, I hardly get a mention”

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1 hour ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

I don’t know about the ‘infighting’ between supporters that a few have mentioned. Perhaps it has happened, perhaps it is happening. But, the statements put out by Jacqui Low/ PTFC board on 09/04/22 and yesterday, do not make clear what the problems with TJF were/are. There’s a comment yesterday about being ‘divisive’ and another implying some people thinking JL wasn’t wanting to make progress in handing over the shares to the fans. That seems to have annoyed her. I have been a trade unionist all my working life. I believe in negotiation and yes, at times compromise has to be made. But there are always ‘red lines’ which cannot be compromised or negotiated away and that surely applies here, from the supporters’ standpoint.. The man who was on the board of TJF  (? Callinson ) who was interviewed (it was available to listen to on here) just after the 09/04/22 PTFC website statements said, that the supporters  group receiving the shares should have to be democratic and have a democratically-elected leadership, and that should be non-negotiable. THAT to me is non-negotiable. He also said that if the shares were given to some other group or one who just appeared on the scene that DIDN’T fit that criteria , that would be  unacceptable. THAT to me IS unacceptable and that principle should also be non-negotiable. There may be other areas for negotiation and even where compromises can be made but we don’t know where JL stands because she has only been clear on one thing so far. She doesn’t want TJF to be given the shares. Surely what should happen now is that she should be clear about what HER vision of majority supporter ownership of PTFC is, because until it is clear, until we know what her ‘red lines’ are, we cannot know if any progress is possible. Too much from 3BC/JL has been ‘implicit’ or vague or not clarified. Clarity now from that corner is vital. 

But it is not you who decides the rules. 3BC are the judge and jury so if they decide democratically elected is not needed, then it doesn't matter what you think is non-negotiable.  In negotiating to facilitate the transfer of shares to fan ownership, we need to be playing by their rules. If we don't, we are out the game.

While I personally think that DD is a prerequisite for any body to get my financial support, if there is another interested party who do not require DD, then TJF are never going to be the recipient of the shares. It comes down to compromise and how much TJF want to be the holders of the shares, because there is competition and whoever is closer to 3BC philosophy are going to be the winners.

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29 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Well, the person who said that, to whom I alluded, was previously one of the leadership of TJF and is still a supporter of it. And, I agreed with him and I agree with all those in TJF to whom the principles I mentioned are key. If fan ownership is worth anything it rests on the principle of supporter democracy to allow independence of thought and action.  That’s why a lot of people in TJF have spent over two years on this project. That’s why a lot of people have been involved in the TJF election process. Do you think a model of fan ownership which DOESN’T take account of the democratic process involving  members would BE true majority fan ownership’? I don’t think it would be. If Jacqui Low or others are looking for others just to always fit in with what she and they want, I am sure she will find some but I wouldn’t support that. How many others would ?!! would be interested to know how many supporters who support the idea of majority fan ownership would accept your line of thinking. 

No, and it is not my line of thinking.  It wouldn't be the sort of fan ownership that I thought we would get, however that doesn't mean to say that it is not the fan ownership that we will get. I am trying to be pragmatic and look at the way the wind is blowing. If the shares do get transferred to another fan group, then what is left for TJF ? 

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27 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Your ‘line of thinking’ (that I referred to ) was what appeared to be (in your comment) an acceptance of majority supporter ownership which doesn’t include democratic accountability. THAT I could never accept as  I don’t think  majority fan own ownership without that democracy as part/parcel  of it would be true fan ownership. And, I don’t think others would accept it. The key is in the word ‘change’. Those who support TJF and true fan ownership are looking for real change and away from the top down management behind closed doors that has been the model up to now. That is why ‘Jags For Change’ has emerged. If you’re not for the sort of change that involves supporters electing leaders on to a board, and some become becoming part of the PTFC board  (subject to election/re-election periodically) then I don’t believe you are really in support of majority fan ownership. And if we do end up with a group taking the shares, where some sit on the board following “the rules” that JL has made herself and decided on herself, as “judge and jury” that don’t allow for disagreement and independent thought on the part of the group with the shares, and accountable to the membership of supporters, THAT won’t be majority supporter ownership at PTFC.  JL and others on the PTFC Board need to accept that power is being ceded to the supporters through majority supporter ownership of those shares. The way things will be done is going to change if we get true fan ownership . And ‘transparency’ is a big part of that too. If  they can’t or won’t accept that, there is no ‘going forward.’ Others must make up their own minds. But, mine is made up on that!

Re the first bit in bold, I think you would be hard pressed to go through this discussion here and find anyone who sees meaningful fan ownership as anything other than as you describe it. 

Re the second bit in bold. Ceding ownership of the shares doesn't automatically equate to ceding control of those shares or control of the Club. You speak as if the transfer of shares to a democratic fans organisation is inevitable and that 3BC have no control over that, when the reality is the exact reverse. They hold all the cards. They set the agenda. You might find that unpalatable, but it is the reality of the situation. It's why the newly elected Jags Foundation Board face a massive, and immediate, challenge in becoming part of the discussion re the destination of the majority shareholding in Partick Thistle. Right now they aren't part of that conversation. 

I'm repeating myself but IMO the pace of the transfer of the shareholding, even this far down the line, needs to slow down. 

If TJF as the soon to be the only truly democratic (do the Jags Trust still hold elections?) credible fans' organisation with room to grow, increase its membership and become increasingly reflective of the support isn't part of the conversation then we need to stop the conversation. If it isn't part of the conversation then it can hold as many elections as it wants and have every single Thistle fan worldwide as a member but it will remain as far away from being the majority shareholder in Partick Thistle as it has ever been. 

Lets put a moratorium in place with regard to the shareholding transfer. Put together a working party with representatives from all interested parties; fans organisations and shareholders, and try and find a workable solution to this. Otherwise we are missing out on a wonderful opportunity. One that might not come around again. 

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4 minutes ago, Tom Hosie said:

You speak as if the transfer of shares to a democratic fans organisation is inevitable and that 3BC have no control over that, when the reality is the exact reverse. They hold all the cards. They set the agenda.

You mean Jacqui low.

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17 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Regarding, “Ceding ownership of the shares doesn’t automatically equate to ceding control of those shares or control of the club.” I am sorry I don’t understand what you mean by this sentence. Can you explain as clearly as possible.

The majority shareholding sitting outside of the Club Boardroom wouldn't be an unique position for Partick Thistle to be in. 

Indeed that was precisely the position when the David Beattie led group ousted the Jacqui Low board in 2019 and had been for some time. 

In essence you can maintain control of organisation even if not sitting on its Board if you happen to be the major shareholder. 

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8 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I think we need to be realistic and recognise that TJF is a dead duck. For whatever reason, 3BC are not going to be giving the shares to them in whatever form the board takes. The reaction to the open letter tells me that they are not in any position to deal with 3BC on any level. Without the shares, what purpose does TJF have ? It may be the most democratic body, but that doesn't give it any preferred status and to my mind they are out of the running

I think it is time to bury the hatchets and get behind one of the other bodies, so that we can influence their decision making process. The alternative is that the different fan groups will keep bickering and the infighting will prevent anything meaningful happening. I hope that the new TJF board recognise this as they are the ones with the revenue stream that could still be of benefit to the club as a whole, even if they don't have any direct control. 

I’m not sure how you can class The Jags Foundation as a dead duck.

It raises money, had an active membership and is running democratic elections with more candidates than board places. 
 

The reaction of the open letter was 3 fold:-

1- Over 700 people publicly signed and backed it with many more stating privately they back it but for various reasons could not sign it yet.

2- It triggered a greater enthusiasm towards fan engagement on the subject of fan ownership.

3- It finally brought out a statement from 3BC

 

There is currently only 2 fan groups. The Jags foundation and The Jags Trust, I have seen no bickering between current board members on either or candidates standing 

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8 hours ago, Tom Hosie said:

Years ago maybe. Less so now, thankfully. 

Tom, 

You wrote "thankfully," as if you were relieved to be shot of it all. Can we (or I) ask what's behind that? Frustration at lack of progress? Too much of your time being taken up by all this business? Clash of personalities/ambitions? Maybe a mixture of those (and other) factors? Could be useful for anyone thinking about getting more involved. 

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2 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

I’m not sure how you can class The Jags Foundation as a dead duck.

There is currently only 2 fan groups. The Jags foundation and The Jags Trust, I have seen no bickering between current board members on either or candidates standing 

There is also the PTFC trust. As a member (of sorts) of all three I only have belief in one of them to represent the views of fans. That is the Jags Foundation.

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10 hours ago, javeajag said:

That’s because it is the point though which for some strange reason people want to avoid. Maybe someone should speak to her and shorten the whole process.

You read the forum. You know the current context. It’s not ‘some strange reason’ that some of us are trying to avoid naming her at this particular point in time. 

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6 minutes ago, sandy said:

You read the forum. You know the current context. It’s not ‘some strange reason’ that some of us are trying to avoid naming her at this particular point in time. 

And it’s a strategy doomed to failure I fear 

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56 minutes ago, javeajag said:

And it’s a strategy doomed to failure I fear 

Whilst I agree its a strange position - the names dont really matter - everyone knows the position of who is who - its not getting the Shares Transferred ?

The recent statement implies a third party who has registered an interest for the Shares - as its Colin Weirs express wish that they go to a Fans Group - then that leaves the Thistle Trust - or the Jags Trust ( the latter is unlikely ) or possibly a yet as unknown Supporters Group

However TJF will be the only Fans Group with a mandate from the Support - any other Group is therefore unlikely to get the full backing from the Fans - which is to the detriment of PTFC 

( ref the Jags Trust its my belief that if there is a properly constructed Fan Group who recieve the Shares  -  the Jags Trust would  most likely transfer there Shares to that body )   

We would however reasonably expect to see a Statement from the Thistle Trust - who have two Directors on the Board & from "Thistle Forever"   - who have one Director on the Board-  as to there views on the Current Scenario - the whole point of "Fans Directors" is for there to be a link to the Fans & open & regular communications

Whilst collective responsibilty applies in a Boardroom - if they are not in Agreement - they have the option to resign     

 

  

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If this process becomes about personalities, and people's actual or perceived views about personalities (on whatever side) then it goes absolutely nowhere.

If it is recognised as a business transaction between end-goal aligned custodians and would-be custodians of the Club, it has a chance of getting over the line.

Three Black Cats does not have one director. It has two. And I'm sure that whatever the composition of the TJF Board following the election result on Thursday, they will be willing to work with both of them, and the Club Board, in the interests of our football club.

Everything else is just noise.

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1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

If this process becomes about personalities, and people's actual or perceived views about personalities (on whatever side) then it goes absolutely nowhere.

If it is recognised as a business transaction between end-goal aligned custodians and would-be custodians of the Club, it has a chance of getting over the line.

Three Black Cats does not have one director. It has two. And I'm sure that whatever the composition of the TJF Board following the election result on Thursday, they will be willing to work with both of them, and the Club Board, in the interests of our football club.

Everything else is just noise.

Boy are you going to be disappointed 

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