Big Announcement

[sandy 952]

It’s like a game of Cluedo. Could the Jags Trust be chasing the prize? 

[denismcquadeno.eleven 105]

Why is it that (short rather brusque) announcements on the PTFC website (like the one today) are put out by the club? They  most often pose MORE questions than they answer.  WHO words them? WHO sanctions them being released?  We’re all waiting for an announcement but this one doesn’t  (like some others)  tell us much! It IS clear though, it is felt by 3BCs/ the PTFC board that  ‘divisiveness’ is something they feel has been caused by others, despite the fact that the statement put out by 3BCs/PTFC board on 09/04/22 has led to the current  situation. But, the ambiguity and lack of clarity of THAT statement , combined with a long ‘silence’ since has actually created the perfect circumstances for the current speculation and frustration (and where it is to be found-disunity.) And, today’s statement is not exactly conciliatory, with a view to bringing people together.

Edited May 23 by denismcquadeno.eleven

[jaggymct 24]

20 minutes ago, partickthedog said:

Hi jaggymct. Quickly copying and pasting my post from Thursday 19th May which confirms what the new application is about. 

Land Register watching seems to be the new close season entertainment for Thistle fans!

Great News!

The Registers of Scotland website finally discloses today that there is a pending application being processed in respect of a Disposition transferring title to the whole of Title Number GLA205256 (Firhill Main Stand & Bing etc) for "certain good and onerous causes" by Three Black Cats Limited in favour of The Partick Thistle Football Club Ltd.

The application was only submitted on 18th May 2022, so no question of a delay by the Registers as some have suggested. What the Disposition has been doing for the past few weeks since the Club announcement I do not know, but that does not matter now.

Accordingly the whole of Firhill does indeed belong to the Club and it is official.

Completely missed that, thanks for the update 

[Garscube Road End 2 351]

1 hour ago, sandy said:

It’s like a game of Cluedo. Could the Jags Trust be chasing the prize? 

Professor Plum with the candlestick in the study?

[Fawlty Towers 941]

I can't think of an instance when someone who is so keen to offload something has made it so hard for someone who wants to own said thing.

[sandy 952]

7 minutes ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

Professor Plum with the candlestick in the study?

Close. Think ABBA. 

[scotty 405]

5 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

I can't think of an instance when someone who is so keen to offload something has made it so hard for someone who wants to own said thing.

3BC may not want to own the shares but it certainly looks like "they" want to control whoever does!

[denismcquadeno.eleven 105]

I would have thought the Jags Foundation would have put out some sort of ‘response’ to todays PTFC website statement on the JF site.  They did with the 09/04/22 one, on the same day it emerged. But, there’s nothing.  Okay,  The Jags Foundation ISN’T  mentioned in the PTFC statement specifically, but the accusation  is made (without alluding to who precisely they are talking about) that some are being ‘divisive.’ Then, there is an invitation for  ‘parties’ (fans) to come forward to be considered for the shares, which 3BCs says it wants to get on with passing on imminently. Today’s PTFC statement seems anything but conciliatory. TJF are a democratic organisation with leaders elected and accountable to a large number of supporters. There  is NO other comparable organisation representing the supporters  yet 3BCs seems keen to stress it is looking for one, and as TJF is NOT mentioned, you have to assume TJF is NOT one they want to consider! If that does not require a response, at the present time, I don’t know what does!

Edited May 23 by denismcquadeno.eleven

[gianlucatoni 278]

maybe 3BC have absolutely no intention of passing the reins onto a fan led group but are instead holding out a hook for a potential sale to some wayward millionaire/consortium - just a thought

[partickthedog 1,270]

34 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

I would have thought the Jags Foundation would have put out some sort of ‘response’ to todays PTFC website statement on the JF site.  They did with the 09/04/22 one, on the same day it emerged. But, there’s nothing.  Okay,  The Jags Foundation ISN’T  mentioned in the PTFC statement specifically, but the accusation  is made (without alluding to who precisely they are talking about) that some are being ‘divisive.’ Then, there is an invitation for  ‘parties’ (fans) to come forward to be considered for the shares, which 3BCs says it wants to get on with passing on imminently. Today’s PTFC statement seems anything but conciliatory. TJF are a democratic organisation with leaders elected and accountable to a large number of supporters. There  is NO other comparable organisation representing the supporters  yet 3BCs seems keen to stress it is looking for one, and as TJF is NOT mentioned, you have to assume TJF is NOT one they want to consider! If that does not require a response, at the present time, I don’t know what does!

Is it not practically difficult for the Jags Foundation to respond when in the middle of an election campaign? One leadership group has resigned and the next is yet to be appointed. 

I suspect that this is the precise reason for the timing of this rather petty announcement.

Edited May 23 by partickthedog
Question mark inserted

[gianlucatoni 278]

Nothing tawdry about it big chap - it’s all pure legit above board!

Monday 23rd May, 2022 at 11:39am The Club has today received the following update from Three Black Cats in relation to fan ownership, which it has been asked to share with fans:

Dear Jacqui Low (@PTFC), I’d be really grateful if you/me (delete as appropriate) could stick out another statement on your/my (delete as appropriate) website to let the fans know of your/my  (delete as appropriate) intentions. As those pesky ones that wanted full disclosure of my/your  (delete as appropriate) finances are in a state of flux at the moment make sure to tell them in that statement of yours/mine (delete as appropriate) that the clock is ticking and will soon run out. Love your/my shoes, best wishes, Jacqui Low (@3BC).

 

[Tom Hosie 284]

1 hour ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

I would have thought the Jags Foundation would have put out some sort of ‘response’ to todays PTFC website statement on the JF site.  They did with the 09/04/22 one, on the same day it emerged. But, there’s nothing.  Okay,  The Jags Foundation ISN’T  mentioned in the PTFC statement specifically, but the accusation  is made (without alluding to who precisely they are talking about) that some are being ‘divisive.’ Then, there is an invitation for  ‘parties’ (fans) to come forward to be considered for the shares, which 3BCs says it wants to get on with passing on imminently. Today’s PTFC statement seems anything but conciliatory. TJF are a democratic organisation with leaders elected and accountable to a large number of supporters. There  is NO other comparable organisation representing the supporters  yet 3BCs seems keen to stress it is looking for one, and as TJF is NOT mentioned, you have to assume TJF is NOT one they want to consider! If that does not require a response, at the present time, I don’t know what does!

There is currently no Jags Foundation Board in any position to make any comment. It's the very definition of a lame duck Board. 

They are in place solely to facilitate the current election at the end of which there will be an elected, as opposed to appointed, Jags Foundation Board for the first time. 

They'll have a mandate from the membership to carry out their election statements. 

TJF will be the only democratic elected body representing Partick Thistle fans. 

They will be faced by an almighty, and immediate, challenge.

3BC have already intimated that the shareholding won't be transferred to TJF. 

TJF will be tasked with trying to facilitate a softening of that stance while also not softening their stance* that a formal Due Diligence exercise needs to be completed before they will accept the gift of the majority shareholding. 

I don't know how you square that circle. 

I certainly don't know how you square that circle within the timescale that the 3BC statement today suggests the shareholding transfer will take place in. 

There are three fans' organisations. 

The Jags Foundation 

The Jags Trust

The Partick Thistle Trust

As of today, May 23rd 2022, my own very personal opinion is that none, in the short term at least should receive the majority shareholding in our club. 

The first, it has already been said, won't receive the majority shareholding and not insubstantial work needs to be done to establish any kind of relationship with 3BC. 

The second backed the Chien Lee takeover and played, perhaps indirectly and unintentionally , a part in the return of the David Beattie led Board. As a result it doesn't, to me, seem credible that it will become home to the majority shareholding. 

The third isn't a democratic fans organisation and limits its membership. 

IMO for genuine and meaningful fan ownership of Partick Thistle to take place these three organisations need to become altogether much more closely aligned. Perhaps create one just one fans body. 

*I'm working on the assumption that there will be a Jags for Change majority on TJB once the election has been completed. 

Apologies for the multiple edits. 

Edited May 23 by Tom Hosie

[Woodstock Jag 605]

5 minutes ago, Tom Hosie said:

*I'm working on the assumption that there will be a Jags for Change majority on TJB once the election has been completed. 

Delighted to have your vote, Tom 

As you rightly say, no one is going to presume to speak for TJF until the election results are announced (I hope) on Thursday morning.

Let's see where the lay of the land is later this week. The election has been an important process for demonstrating the representative credentials of TJF.

It strikes me that it would be very difficult indeed for another body to demonstrate equal or better fan engagement on the timescales envisaged by the statement.

I think there's the opportunity for a reset here. Ignore the rhetoric and what is clear is that 3BC wants a swift transition to fan-ownership.

Despite the fall-out of the last couple of months, TJF remains the only and the obvious candidate to deliver that goal.

[sandy 952]

In all of this, let’s not forget the reasons given for not selecting TJF before were (according to 3BC) around ‘fit and proper’ aspects such as business experience. 

By the simple mechanism of democratic elections of new TJF Board Members, the blend of skills/energy/experience will be different to before. If it was an apple before, it will be a pear after.  It logically follows that 3BC would re-assess the suitability of TJF. 

Perhaps submitting a ‘note of interest’ now and following that up after the election result with a firm commitment by the new TJF Board would be a useful and constructive approach. 

Edited May 24 by sandy

[Tom Hosie 284]

4 hours ago, sandy said:

In all of this, let’s not forget the reasons given for not selecting TJF before were (according to 3BC) around ‘fit and proper’ aspects such as business experience. 

By the simple mechanism of democratic elections of new TJF Board Members, the blend of skills/energy/experience will be different to before. If it was an apple before, it will be a pear after.  It logically follows that 3BC would re-assess the suitability of TJF. 

Perhaps submitting a ‘note of interest’ now and following that up after the election result with a firm commitment by the new TJF Board would be a useful and constructive approach. 

Actually the 3BC statement of April 9th made no reference to "business experience" and a lack of it as being a factor in TJF not progressing towards passing a fit and proper test. 

I took that statement to mean that the organisation itself wasn't progressing towards that goal rather than the individuals themselves not doing so. 

Perhaps a complete change in TJF Board can alter that but time would appear to be against them. Especially as the Due Diligence impasse looks to me insurmountable. Both 3BC and the likely majority on the new Jags Foundation Board seem pretty entrenched in their respective positions. Indeed reading the April 9th statement again this morning, it seems to have been a major factor in the process breaking down in the first place. 

[denismcquadeno.eleven 105]

4 hours ago, sandy said:

In all of this, let’s not forget the reasons given for not selecting TJF before were (according to 3BC) around ‘fit and proper’ aspects such as business experience. 

By the simple mechanism of democratic elections of new TJF Board Members, the blend of skills/energy/experience will be different to before. If it was an apple before, it will be a pear after.  It logically follows that 3BC would re-assess the suitability of TJF. 

Perhaps submitting a ‘note of interest’ now and following that up after the election result with a firm commitment by the new TJF Board would be a useful and constructive approach. 

Would it not be possible to produce a statement-doesn’t have to be long-in response to that made yesterday on the PTFC website, which ALL the candidates for TJF leadership could put their names to? After all, whatever their differences, they must all be committed to the key principle that it should be TJF which. should/must be the supporters vehicle for receiving the Colin Weir shares.

[Dick Dastardly 1,044]

I think we need to be realistic and recognise that TJF is a dead duck. For whatever reason, 3BC are not going to be giving the shares to them in whatever form the board takes. The reaction to the open letter tells me that they are not in any position to deal with 3BC on any level. Without the shares, what purpose does TJF have ? It may be the most democratic body, but that doesn't give it any preferred status and to my mind they are out of the running

I think it is time to bury the hatchets and get behind one of the other bodies, so that we can influence their decision making process. The alternative is that the different fan groups will keep bickering and the infighting will prevent anything meaningful happening. I hope that the new TJF board recognise this as they are the ones with the revenue stream that could still be of benefit to the club as a whole, even if they don't have any direct control. 

[Tom Hosie 284]

7 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Delighted to have your vote, Tom 

As you rightly say, no one is going to presume to speak for TJF until the election results are announced (I hope) on Thursday morning.

Let's see where the lay of the land is later this week. The election has been an important process for demonstrating the representative credentials of TJF.

It strikes me that it would be very difficult indeed for another body to demonstrate equal or better fan engagement on the timescales envisaged by the statement.

I think there's the opportunity for a reset here. Ignore the rhetoric and what is clear is that 3BC wants a swift transition to fan-ownership.

Despite the fall-out of the last couple of months, TJF remains the only and the obvious candidate to deliver that goal.

Sorry to disappoint WJ :-) 

I don't disagree with your post above. Quite the reverse. 

TJF is the only, or will be, democratic body representing the fans. It's potentially the most credible organisation to receive the shareholding. They are my preference to receive the shareholding. 

I fear though that that ship has sailed. Or at least is too far from shore to get back to port on time. 

My hope is that 3BC don't  now rush to hand over the shareholding. That there is still time for a meaningful fan owned Partick Thistle. If it takes even longer.  If it needs to be something other than TJF then so be it. This is about the long term future of our Club

Edited May 24 by Tom Hosie

[sandy 952]

I struggle to understand where 3BC can go if TJF is a ‘dead duck’

[denismcquadeno.eleven 105]

6 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I think we need to be realistic and recognise that TJF is a dead duck. For whatever reason, 3BC are not going to be giving the shares to them in whatever form the board takes. The reaction to the open letter tells me that they are not in any position to deal with 3BC on any level. Without the shares, what purpose does TJF have ? It may be the most democratic body, but that doesn't give it any preferred status and to my mind they are out of the running

I think it is time to bury the hatchets and get behind one of the other bodies, so that we can influence their decision making process. The alternative is that the different fan groups will keep bickering and the infighting will prevent anything meaningful happening. I hope that the new TJF board recognise this as they are the ones with the revenue stream that could still be of benefit to the club as a whole, even if they don't have any direct control. 

It’s a view and it’s your view, to which you’re entitled but I don’t agree with it. You seem to be asking the supporters group-the only democratic, accountable group to just roll over and dissolve themselves at the behest of 3BCs (which many feel amounts to one person ie Jacqui Low). And, then TJF can just hand over the money given by those same supporters, that they gave freely  in expectation of gaining some independent, democratic control of their own club-which we’re led to believe Colin Weir wanted as he was a supporter himself. And, in addition all the fans who wanted this outcome are supposed to just accept this and look on the people on the board who take over in a favourable light, without regretting their previous wish for genuine democratic control of their club has gone? 

[Tom Hosie 284]

10 minutes ago, sandy said:

I struggle to understand where 3BC can go if TJF is a ‘dead duck’

Right now? Nowhere credible for a meaningful fan ownership. 

Which is why I hope the speed of the share transfer can now be slowed. Crazy I know after all this time to actually want to slow it down further. 

TJF is just sitting there. It is the most credible but unless there is a shift in the respective positions, or even a softening of one, either one, position, re Due Diligence it is IMO and with much regret a 'dead duck'. 

If the new Jags Foundation Board can reopen dialogue with 3BC that would be a massive and really positive, albeit, small step. 

Edited May 24 by Tom Hosie

[sandy 952]

Tom, we would all agree that meaningful fan ownership should be the outcome. Apart from issues like DD, what do you think 3BC would need to satisfy them? 

[sb1876 105]

Things are not getting much clearer or straightforward so here's another far fetched scenario that has no truth or any basis of fact whatsoever.

 

Dear Three Black Cats,

I represent Partick Thistle fans and would be delighted to take those pesky shares off your hands, I've supported 'the Partick' for at least 4 years now (well I've watched a few games) and the club will definitely, absolutely be very safe in my hands.  I'm not fussed about any due diligence or about any other liabilities or hidden costs that there may be as I'm planning on selling up and moving the club to Broadwood as soon as I can anyway. Oops, scratch that last bit as it's supposed to be a secret!!

PS, I've got a mate who has some recent experience of running a football club thingy too so that should hopefully help seal the deal?

Yours sincerely

Mr (or Mrs) Definitely not connected to anyone currently at the club.

[Tom Hosie 284]

7 minutes ago, sandy said:

Tom, we would all agree that meaningful fan ownership should be the outcome. Apart from issues like DD, what do you think 3BC would need to satisfy them? 

I honestly don't know. I think we somehow need to get past the DD issue first and I don't know how you do that. 

I have to stress at this point, I'm speaking entirely for myself here. 

What I'd like to see is a clear vision for what happens after the share transfer both short (a kind of first 100 days thing) and long term. And less about the mechanics about how the organisation will govern itself, as important as that is. 

The problem the old Jags Foundation Board had was that it was appointed and not elected. It didn't have any mandate to present a vision/plan for fan ownership. 

Maybe it's sole task should have been to get us to the point of having an elected, mandated, Board and then the discussions with 3BC begins re the timescale for the share transfer. 

Sorry, not articulating myself very well. 

[sandy 952]

That’s helpful Tom. You have a lot of experience in & around the Club.