No Fan Ownership ?

[laukat]

Genuine question How do we know for definite she doesn't get an income from PTFC?

It wouldn't necessarily be Directors pay. She could be receiving income for public relationship advice. It may be the case the statements last week cost us money to have her do them both?

The non-playing wage bill at firhill seems high for a championship club. Might one or two of those wages be jobs for the boys/girls?

[Dick Dastardly]

24 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

£34092 for 2020 and £9533 for 2021 classified as “Current Liabilities” which in the notes would cover “Employee Benefits”. As these are micro-accounts (Unlike PTFC) this may or may not show all employee wages /expenses or remuneration 

Those figures are hardly likely to make a significant difference (especially after tax) to her finances, and certainly not worth the hassle she will get from being chair, so I'm still not getting the motivation.

[javeajag]

59 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

£34092 for 2020 and £9533 for 2021 classified as “Current Liabilities” which in the notes would cover “Employee Benefits”. As these are micro-accounts (Unlike PTFC) this may or may not show all employee wages /expenses or remuneration 

And let’s be honest may also have nothing to do with payments to her 

[javeajag]

40 minutes ago, laukat said:

Genuine question How do we know for definite she doesn't get an income from PTFC?

It wouldn't necessarily be Directors pay. She could be receiving income for public relationship advice. It may be the case the statements last week cost us money to have her do them both?

The non-playing wage bill at firhill seems high for a championship club. Might one or two of those wages be jobs for the boys/girls?

If she was I would be very surprised if it was not identified as payment to a director which it would be and there are none  listed in the accounts.

 

[Woodstock Jag]

4 hours ago, javeajag said:

Though to be fair the executors of Colin weirs estate ( and we don’t know what his will actually says ) have a clear expression of wish from Colin weir that his shares should be transferred to fan ownership …..and also to be fair that was referenced in the statement on Saturday …nor do we know the exact legal structure of 3BC and it’s relational to Colin weirs estate.

So whilst speculating is fun this could easily just be that Jacqui low didn’t like TJF and it’s approach …..and to be fair neither did quite a few people on here.

"Clear expression of wish" could mean a broad range of things though. And there are a whole host of situations in which that wish could be rendered ineffective, and the assets falling to other named beneficiaries in the will instead.

People have been taking a lot of things the Club custodians are saying at face value. Everyone keeps going on about Jacqui Low, but actually, she's really just the custodian for the time being of Weirs Estate's interest in Thistle. That gives her a lot of power in the short term precisely if the Weir Estate isn't interested in the day-to-day running of the Club, but it also means she doesn't really have any skin in the game (unlike our previous board, who were mostly significant personal shareholders and part-owners of the stadium).

Edited April 12, 2022 by Woodstock Jag

[javeajag]

27 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

"Clear expression of wish" could mean a broad range of things though. And there are a whole host of situations in which that wish could be rendered ineffective, and the assets falling to other named beneficiaries in the will instead.

People have been taking a lot of things the Club custodians are saying at face value. Everyone keeps going on about Jacqui Low, but actually, she's really just the custodian for the time being of Weirs Estate's interest in Thistle. That gives her a lot of power in the short term precisely if the Weir Estate isn't interested in the day-to-day running of the Club, but it also means she doesn't really have any skin in the game (unlike our previous board, who were mostly significant personal shareholders and part-owners of the stadium).

Sure it could but Colin weirs direction of travel was pretty clear …. Unless you know what his will said about the shares etc the rest us just speculation which doesn’t get us very far 

there is a reasonable point to be made that jlow is just agreeing with people here that TJF isn’t up to the job 

[Norgethistle]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

And let’s be honest may also have nothing to do with payments to her 

Exactly what I’ve stated as it’s micro-accounts 

[The Ghost]

47 minutes ago, javeajag said:

Sure it could but Colin weirs direction of travel was pretty clear …. Unless you know what his will said about the shares etc the rest us just speculation which doesn’t get us very far 

there is a reasonable point to be made that jlow is just agreeing with people here that TJF isn’t up to the job 

I think the last sentence is cutely worded but you're smart enough to know that those views of TJF came from opposite ends of the spectrum. 

Criticism from fans here and elsewhere was that TJF wasn't  being brave enough and demanding some clarity on finances from the club, approaching the transaction professionally and ensuring that the directors of TJF fulfilled their fiduciary duty to its members. 

JL wanted to dictate terms to TJF and rejected even the most basic financial interrogation. When TJF finally, meekly raised its hand to ask questions, she pulled the plug and did so publicly in a ridiculous statement that writ large the conflict of interest she has had from the start of this.

The reality is this, the members of TJF and the wider support contribute far more to PTFC than JL ever has. This isn't her personal investment where she has earned the right to set terms, she is a custodian and yet she's treating the fans with contempt. 

She's made lots of mistakes at Firhill but the conduct of the past week is irrecoverable for her. 

[sandy]

Good post above

[Garscube Road End 2]

58 minutes ago, The Ghost said:

I think the last sentence is cutely worded but you're smart enough to know that those views of TJF came from opposite ends of the spectrum. 

Criticism from fans here and elsewhere was that TJF wasn't  being brave enough and demanding some clarity on finances from the club, approaching the transaction professionally and ensuring that the directors of TJF fulfilled their fiduciary duty to its members. 

JL wanted to dictate terms to TJF and rejected even the most basic financial interrogation. When TJF finally, meekly raised its hand to ask questions, she pulled the plug and did so publicly in a ridiculous statement that writ large the conflict of interest she has had from the start of this.

The reality is this, the members of TJF and the wider support contribute far more to PTFC than JL ever has. This isn't her personal investment where she has earned the right to set terms, she is a custodian and yet she's treating the fans with contempt. 

She's made lots of mistakes at Firhill but the conduct of the past week is irrecoverable for her. 

She has Neen a disaster since coming to the club. A cancer on Partick Thistle. 

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, The Ghost said:

I think the last sentence is cutely worded but you're smart enough to know that those views of TJF came from opposite ends of the spectrum. 

Criticism from fans here and elsewhere was that TJF wasn't  being brave enough and demanding some clarity on finances from the club, approaching the transaction professionally and ensuring that the directors of TJF fulfilled their fiduciary duty to its members. 

JL wanted to dictate terms to TJF and rejected even the most basic financial interrogation. When TJF finally, meekly raised its hand to ask questions, she pulled the plug and did so publicly in a ridiculous statement that writ large the conflict of interest she has had from the start of this.

The reality is this, the members of TJF and the wider support contribute far more to PTFC than JL ever has. This isn't her personal investment where she has earned the right to set terms, she is a custodian and yet she's treating the fans with contempt. 

She's made lots of mistakes at Firhill but the conduct of the past week is irrecoverable for her. 

I think a cursory reading of posts here on fan ownership would indicate that some were in favour of it, some were against it and some don’t care much.

and you could certainly take from it that support for fan ownership was let’s say lukewarm with lots of criticism of TJF

maybe if we had all got on board at the start we mightynot be here 

[Lambies Lost Doo]

26 minutes ago, javeajag said:

I think a cursory reading of posts here on fan ownership would indicate that some were in favour of it, some were against it and some don’t care much.

and you could certainly take from it that support for fan ownership was let’s say lukewarm with lots of criticism of TJF

maybe if we had all got on board at the start we mightynot be here 

Well it has given me the boot up the backside and I joined today and pledged my £10 a month.

I was lukewarm.  The TJF have also made mistakes in selling the vision.  BUT this action by one person is not on and I would ask other fans to get on board and support TJF.

I also ask TJF to be more vocal, to have figurehead(s) and to be more assertive and this is the perfect time to make that change with focus on now protecting the club from 1 self confessed PR expert.

[Yellow & Redneck]

Even the TJF statement on Twitter has 5 retweets and 4 comments. That tells you a lot unfortunately. It almost looks as if TJF has skulked into the corner when in reality they should have come out swinging. 

Even look at the response here. A thread with just 3 pages! The usual grumble from Jags fans, but in reality we are too impotent to actually do anything to affect change. I don't see Thistle fans actually mobilising themselves or making their feelings known. And to be honest, who can blame them? You have Low in one corner, and TJF in the other. What a choice. 

To me, this whole episode has just been an utter mess. On the surface of it, the decision of Colin Weir to gift majority shares to the fans might be a nice idea. But was there really any clamber for this position prior to it being touted? Can we honestly say the club is in a better position now than before the Weir investment. I honestly don't think you can. And that isn't to sound ungrateful for what he done. Absolutely not. But the tragic circumstances that proceeded his investment should not negate an honest conversation about the state of the club now, and whether the current course of action is the correct one. 

[javeajag]

27 minutes ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

Can we honestly say the club is in a better position now than before the Weir investment.

If the stadium returns to full Club ownership and with no debt then the answer is yes 

[Jordanhill Jag]

54 minutes ago, javeajag said:

If the stadium returns to full Club ownership and with no debt then the answer is yes 

The No Debt was already there prior to the takeover by 3BC 

Sure there will be increased assets with full Stadium Ownership but the issue of Cashflow will remain 

Also the Question of who runs the Club will remain  

[javeajag]

58 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The No Debt was already there prior to the takeover by 3BC 

Sure there will be increased assets with full Stadium Ownership but the issue of Cashflow will remain 

Also the Question of who runs the Club will remain  

But as you are not in favour of fan ownership then the current situation is what you are left with unless you have  another solution ? 

[Woodstock Jag]

6 hours ago, javeajag said:

If the stadium returns to full Club ownership and with no debt then the answer is yes 

This doesn't follow, though it would be a step in the right direction.

Full ownership of the stadium, all other things being equal, would be a stronger position to be in than partial ownership.

But the previous arrangement also involved regular financial contributions from our major shareholder-directors (the infamous Directors' fee went a long way to ensuring we broke even in some of the more challenging moments). It also kept it in David Beattie's and Billy Allan's (and Co)'s interests to keep the Club in a sustainable financial position, to protect the value of their investment in PropCo.

It is difficult, with the level of detail on PTFC's accounts and the highly unusual economic conditions in which 3BC has operated (pandemic etc) to say whether that level of sustainability has been preserved under Jacqui Low's stewardship (though IIRC we sustained significant losses in the Gary Caldwell season, suggesting it hasn't been).

It is also fair to say that we can't take for granted that directors would, in the alternative timeline, have continued to bankroll the Club. It's clear David Beattie and others wanted out and to retire, and would potentially have been willing to cut quite unfavourable deals to get to that position.

And it's also fair to say that there remains a very real challenge of explaining how the Club is going to attract investment if and when it becomes fan-owned.

But the same concern arises under the status quo, under which 3BC continues to own the Club. Where is new money going to come from if and when it becomes clear that fan ownership simply isn't on the table? 3BC isn't a magic money tree, its main assets are the club and part of the club's ground and the Weir Estate isn't going to throw cash at 3BC indefinitely unless there is both the means and desire to do so.

[javeajag]

38 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

This doesn't follow, though it would be a step in the right direction.

Full ownership of the stadium, all other things being equal, would be a stronger position to be in than partial ownership.

But the previous arrangement also involved regular financial contributions from our major shareholder-directors (the infamous Directors' fee went a long way to ensuring we broke even in some of the more challenging moments). It also kept it in David Beattie's and Billy Allan's (and Co)'s interests to keep the Club in a sustainable financial position, to protect the value of their investment in PropCo.

It is difficult, with the level of detail on PTFC's accounts and the highly unusual economic conditions in which 3BC has operated (pandemic etc) to say whether that level of sustainability has been preserved under Jacqui Low's stewardship (though IIRC we sustained significant losses in the Gary Caldwell season, suggesting it hasn't been).

It is also fair to say that we can't take for granted that directors would, in the alternative timeline, have continued to bankroll the Club. It's clear David Beattie and others wanted out and to retire, and would potentially have been willing to cut quite unfavourable deals to get to that position.

And it's also fair to say that there remains a very real challenge of explaining how the Club is going to attract investment if and when it becomes fan-owned.

But the same concern arises under the status quo, under which 3BC continues to own the Club. Where is new money going to come from if and when it becomes clear that fan ownership simply isn't on the table? 3BC isn't a magic money tree, its main assets are the club and part of the club's ground and the Weir Estate isn't going to throw cash at 3BC indefinitely unless there is both the means and desire to do so.

That’s all very very but how about you present some way forward from where we are now …..because I read that to say your against fan ownership but also against the current situation which means you get a free pass out if here but the club doesn’t 

[Woodstock Jag]

29 minutes ago, javeajag said:

That’s all very very but how about you present some way forward from where we are now …..because I read that to say your against fan ownership but also against the current situation which means you get a free pass out if here but the club doesn’t 

Then you misread it.

I think the best outcome on the table is probably fan ownership along the lines put forward by TJF, but that we should proceed wide eyed as to the substantial risks that would likely involve. That’s why a full due diligence exercise is absolutely essential and why no fan-ownership orientated body or anyone with the Club’s interests at heart should agree to anything without it.

I’m disinterested in the counterfactual of Thistle without 5 numbers and 2 lucky stars, but I also don’t want people to get rose tinted about a business ethos and model that displays an indifference towards the Club being self sustaining in the long run.

Owning the stadium is only really important if either (a) the Club needs short or medium term collateral for borrowing and/or (b) it cannot afford under its revenue to rent a suitable facility while putting out a good team on the park.

[javeajag]

7 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

That’s why a full due diligence exercise is absolutely essential and why no fan-ownership orientated body or anyone with the Club’s interests at heart should agree to anything without it.

 

And if the club say DD is not needed  then fan ownership should not go ahead seems to be majority view ……which ironically keeps Jacqui low where apparently people don’t want her 

[sandy]

36 minutes ago, javeajag said:

And if the club say DD is not needed  then fan ownership should not go ahead seems to be majority view ……which ironically keeps Jacqui low where apparently people don’t want her 

You always manage to twist things round. 
 

So the club said don’t bother with DD, nothing to see here. Would you have trusted them? We needed DD as an impartial check on the state of things. 
 

I'm now not sure JL was ever planning to relinquish control to TJF and instead led us up the garden path. The Club is at a dangerous juncture now. 
 

Just where The Jags Trust features in this, who knows.

[The Ghost]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

And if the club say DD is not needed  then fan ownership should not go ahead seems to be majority view ……which ironically keeps Jacqui low where apparently people don’t want her 

I don't that's the majority view at all. 

I think the majority view is that if the custodian of the club who hasn't put a penny of her own money in refuses the will (and professionalism of the supporters federation) then the current club board either need to outvote her or brace themselves for a real change in approach from the fans. 

It's quite something to see the intellectual gymnastics you're performing at every stage to project issues onto the fans when the problems here, the reason this hasn't happened, is sitting in the Thistle boardroom. 

[javeajag]

27 minutes ago, The Ghost said:

I don't that's the majority view at all. 

I think the majority view is that if the custodian of the club who hasn't put a penny of her own money in refuses the will (and professionalism of the supporters federation) then the current club board either need to outvote her or brace themselves for a real change in approach from the fans. 

It's quite something to see the intellectual gymnastics you're performing at every stage to project issues onto the fans when the problems here, the reason this hasn't happened, is sitting in the Thistle boardroom. 

To blame the board for the lack of enthusiasm on fan ownership is quite a stretch

[The Ghost]

30 minutes ago, javeajag said:

To blame the board for the lack of enthusiasm on fan ownership is quite a stretch

Where did I do that? See, you're at it again!

The process stalled because of JL's interference and was then halted because of her temper. Lack of enthusiasm had nothing to do with it at this stage. 

[javeajag]

30 minutes ago, The Ghost said:

Where did I do that? See, you're at it again!

The process stalled because of JL's interference and was then halted because of her temper. Lack of enthusiasm had nothing to do with it at this stage. 

Quite a few people here have pointed to a lack of enthusiasm for fan ownership …I don’t think that’s a very controversial view …. The fact that TJF has 456 members is a good indication in itself.

and clearly the alternative to fan ownership at the moment  is what we have now with no change 

if your are going to insist on due diligence then that means fan ownership is conditional on what DD reveals and that TJF could walk away as a result. Because if it’s not conditional then it doesn’t really matter when DD is done

that  again would leave the status quo