Independent Fans Statement

[jaggyben]

Please add my name to the list George Matheson thanks great effort 

[JAG1970]

Probably an impossible question to answer but....  is there a timeline for trying to get this resolved...  many folk might be thinking of holding back their ST money and/or other subscriptions until they are satisfied one way or another..   with 600+ folk expressing their concerns/dismay about the current situation this could spill over into the pre-season and affect the managers budget (a theme JL may hijack) and impact signing targets..  I guess my question is really for JL but since she doesn't communicate with the support despite her original promise I suppose this is a pointless post! 

[Norgethistle]

4 hours ago, jaggyben said:

Please add my name to the list George Matheson thanks great effort 

Thanks added

[Woodstock Jag]

8 hours ago, JAG1970 said:

Probably an impossible question to answer but....  is there a timeline for trying to get this resolved...  many folk might be thinking of holding back their ST money and/or other subscriptions until they are satisfied one way or another..   with 600+ folk expressing their concerns/dismay about the current situation this could spill over into the pre-season and affect the managers budget (a theme JL may hijack) and impact signing targets..  I guess my question is really for JL but since she doesn't communicate with the support despite her original promise I suppose this is a pointless post!

Looking backward

Part of the problem here is that Three Black Cats has explicitly reneged on a timeline agreed to as recently as October 2021. They had committed to a transfer of shares to The Jags Foundation "by June 2022".

Before that, there had been an initial commitment, when setting up The Working Group (in November 2019) to "handover" the shares "no later than March 2020" and a commitment to transfer the Main Stand and City End back to the Club "within 7 days".

We entirely understand that:

(a) original timeframe was hopelessly unrealistic

(b) it was made completely impossible given the estate issues arising from Colin Weir's passing weeks later

(c) the Covid pandemic caused real practical problems for working through some of the challenges in 2020, and even early 2021, which might reasonably have delayed this process.

But none of this is an explanation or an excuse for the failure of the process in the last 6-7 months. There was a clear direction of travel and a target which, even if slipped on by, say, a few weeks, few would have grumbled about.

Looking forward

The dilemma going forward is that there is never a "good time" to address difficult issues on ownership and control of a football club.

Three Black Cats want to wait until the summer, supposedly so that the Club's sole focus is on the pitch, but chose to make a statement breaking-off the process a matter of days before a crunch six-pointer near the end of the season.

If we wait until the summer, the fans have very limited opportunity to organise and get engaged (for example) in physical settings on match-days. Doing this stuff at the start of the close season is a recipe for apathy, disengagement and other distractions.

If we wait until later on in the summer, the annual tugging of heart-strings over season tickets is underway and those who ask for scrutiny and transparency will (no doubt) be accused of generating uncertainty while the manager is rebuilding his squad.

And then if we wait until the season is underway again the "get behind the team" patter starts all over again.

Now that The Jags Foundation is planning to hold elections (specifically because 3BC broke off talks) I suspect June 2022 might be ambitious to get this all sorted out. But there is no good reason I can see, in the public domain or of which I am otherwise aware, why fan ownership cannot be achieved before the start of the next league season if Three Black Cats are willing to get back around the negotiating table.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Woodstock Jag

[Aliballibee]

Not directly related to the Statement but I wondered with Hearts making the Cup Final and 3rd place tied up what their fan ownership looked like. From an online article:

Heart of Midlothian FC has become the UK's largest fan-owned club, after chair Ann Budge's majority shareholding was signed over to the Foundation of Hearts. Around 8,000 supporters who make monthly pledges to the group officially took ownership yesterday afternoon, of shares representing 75.1% of the club's capital for an aggregate cash consideration of £100,000 - at a price of 0.085 pence per share.

That's a lot of supporters making monthly pledges and generating a decent amount. Does the model actually work with our (likely) reduced numbers?

[fifexile]

10 minutes ago, Aliballibee said:

Not directly related to the Statement but I wondered with Hearts making the Cup Final and 3rd place tied up what their fan ownership looked like. From an online article:

Heart of Midlothian FC has become the UK's largest fan-owned club, after chair Ann Budge's majority shareholding was signed over to the Foundation of Hearts. Around 8,000 supporters who make monthly pledges to the group officially took ownership yesterday afternoon, of shares representing 75.1% of the club's capital for an aggregate cash consideration of £100,000 - at a price of 0.085 pence per share.

That's a lot of supporters making monthly pledges and generating a decent amount. Does the model actually work with our (likely) reduced numbers?

It can work if its done right even if we are never likely to get to 8,000 members. As a more realistic comparison, Exeter City have been fan owned for around 20 years and are probably more or less comparable to Thistle. St Mirren and Motherwell are bigger in size based on attendances so probably have a bigger pool of potential members. If we can re-engage with fans that have drifted away there's no reason it can't work but it needs to be done right starting with getting the shares transferred. 

[Woodstock Jag]

When folk say can fan ownership work they ask a fair question. I was, for a long time, what you might call a "critical friend" of fan ownership. Especially in a football league with a patchy sponsorship record, the default model has, and not just for Thistle, been an emphasis on gates and benefactors.

But the blunt truth is Thistle's choice isn't between fan ownership and a wealthy benefactor.

Thistle's choice is between some form of fan ownership and being owned by a holding company owned by the estate of someone who's sadly passed away. There is no knight in shining armour ready to bear the burden.

Save the Jags happened in the 1990s because, after Jim Oliver, there was no one person able or willing to bear the burden on their own.

David Beattie and PropCo happened in the late 2000s because, even after Save the Jags, there was no one person willing to bear the burden of the Club without some sort of security on their investment.

The closest we got to that white knight existing was when Colin Weir had all the resources, all of the willingness to muck-in and could absorb all of the risk. But that was only possible because he was making initially substantial six figure, and latterly high seven figure sums available to Three Black Cats to get on and do it.

Unless the beneficiaries of his estate want to carry on doing that, and there's absolutely no evidence that they do (nor, frankly can we expect them to) that situation no longer exists.

The only people who would buy our Club are asset strippers who don't care about the fans and the product on the park. Just ask fans of Nice and Barnsley how Paul Conway and co are working out for them.

Fan ownership won't be easy. But it is the answer to which more and more clubs, of all sizes, are turning.

If you're hesitant about The Jags Foundation because you don't know what kind of Club it would lead to in ten years time, ask yourself this:

• what will Partick Thistle look like in ten years time if Three Black Cats still owns it?
• what will Partick Thistle look like in ten years time if a different vehicle is given the shares?

If either of those two outcomes is, in your opinion, clear and rosy, fair enough. That's a call for you to make.

But if you think that both of those outcomes are filled with uncertainty, in terms of finances, governance and management, I think you should be backing The Jags Foundation. Even though it is not risk free, it has models and mentors, in Scottish and English football.

No other organisation is better placed to mobilise the talents and resources of the Thistle support as things stand.

For me, I think an organisation that is genuinely independent of the Thistle Board, genuinely independent of past and current major shareholders and directors, and which has already mobilised about a quarter of the home support in making regular financial contributions, is really well placed to engage with the wider Thistle community on a number of different levels.

After years of wrangling by personalities and proxies, a genuinely fresh start would do the world of good. An opportunity to define Thistle by its positives, rather than just by what we're not.

This isn't just something for big clubs. Morton is about to become fan owned and controlled. A club that, for decades, spent literal millions™ of one of the last of a dying breed of entrepreneur owners of football clubs. That model is dying out as a viable one in Scottish football even more so than elsewhere, and the clubs that are going to benefit the most in the next 20 years are those that recognise that and adapt. Hearts and Motherwell are steaming ahead on this. Let's join them on the train before it leaves the station.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Woodstock Jag

[Woodstock Jag]

One more thought before I log off for this evening: given that fan ownership is the only show in town, I would much rather that we got on with it while the Club was debt free, owned its ground, and had an active supporter-run vehicle with financial contributions from (let's say) a quarter to half of the regular support. If there are problems, that situation is at least one with a buffer.

Because the alternative might genuinely be us having the same conversation when the Club is heavily in debt, has mortgaged or had to sell part of its stadium to meet its ongoing liabilities, has been relegated on the football pitch because of abrupt cuts to the playing budget, and doesn't have an organisation with regular subscribers already in place to do their bit.

That's Save the Jags again.

[Aliballibee]

48 minutes ago, fifexile said:

It can work if its done right even if we are never likely to get to 8,000 members. As a more realistic comparison, Exeter City have been fan owned for around 20 years and are probably more or less comparable to Thistle. St Mirren and Motherwell are bigger in size based on attendances so probably have a bigger pool of potential members. If we can re-engage with fans that have drifted away there's no reason it can't work but it needs to be done right starting with getting the shares transferred. 

Thanks, I had a look at the Exeter Website and this stood out:

Exeter City has been named as the best club for fan engagement across the top four tiers of English football – for the second year running. The club topped the Fan Engagement Index 2019/20, an index which scores each of the clubs from the Premier League to League Two on the relationship with their fans. It places each club in a league table comprising three areas: dialogue, governance and transparency. Exeter City topped the league, with fellow League Two clubs, Carlisle United and Cambridge United in second and third place respectively.

Sounds like these are the sort of clubs we should be having a dialogue with, given their realistic comparisons.

[gianlucatoni]

27 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

When folk say can fan ownership work they ask a fair question. I was, for a long time, what you might call a "critical friend" of fan ownership. Especially in a football league with a patchy sponsorship record, the default model has, and not just for Thistle, been an emphasis on gates and benefactors.

But the blunt truth is Thistle's choice isn't between fan ownership and a wealthy benefactor.

Thistle's choice is between some form of fan ownership and being owned by a holding company owned by the estate of someone who's sadly passed away. There is no knight in shining armour ready to bear the burden.

Save the Jags happened in the 1990s because, after Jim Oliver, there was no one person able or willing to bear the burden on their own.

David Beattie and PropCo happened in the late 2000s because, even after Save the Jags, there was no one person willing to bear the burden of the Club without some sort of security on their investment.

The closest we got to that white knight existing was when Colin Weir had all the resources, all of the willingness to muck-in and could absorb all of the risk. But that was only possible because he was making initially substantial six figure, and latterly high seven figure sums available to Three Black Cats to get on and do it.

Unless the beneficiaries of his estate want to carry on doing that, and there's absolutely no evidence that they do (nor, frankly can we expect them to) that situation no longer exists.

The only people who would buy our Club are asset strippers who don't care about the fans and the product on the park. Just ask fans of Nice and Barnsley how Paul Conway and co are working out for them.

Fan ownership won't be easy. But it is the answer to which more and more clubs, of all sizes, are turning.

If you're hesitant about The Jags Foundation because you don't know what kind of Club it would lead to in ten years time, ask yourself this:

• what will Partick Thistle look like in ten years time if Three Black Cats still owns it?
• what will Partick Thistle look like in ten years time if a different vehicle is given the shares?

If either of those two outcomes is, in your opinion, clear and rosy, fair enough. That's a call for you to make.

But if you think that both of those outcomes are filled with uncertainty, in terms of finances, governance and management, I think you should be backing The Jags Foundation. Even though it is not risk free, it has models and mentors, in Scottish and English football.

No other organisation is better placed to mobilise the talents and resources of the Thistle support as things stand.

For me, I think an organisation that is genuinely independent of the Thistle Board, genuinely independent of past and current major shareholders and directors, and which has already mobilised about a quarter of the home support in making regular financial contributions, is really well placed to engage with the wider Thistle community on a number of different levels.

After years of wrangling by personalities and proxies, a genuinely fresh start would do the world of good. An opportunity to define Thistle by its positives, rather than just by what we're not.

This isn't just something for big clubs. Morton is about to become fan owned and controlled. A club that, for decades, spent literal millions™ of one of the last of a dying breed of entrepreneur owners of football clubs. That model is dying out as a viable one in Scottish football even more so than elsewhere, and the clubs that are going to benefit the most in the next 20 years are those that recognise that and adapt. Hearts and Motherwell are steaming ahead on this. Let's join them on the train before it leaves the station.

a quiet night down in London WJ?!

[Woodstock Jag]

8 minutes ago, Aliballibee said:

Thanks, I had a look at the Exeter Website and this stood out:

Exeter City has been named as the best club for fan engagement across the top four tiers of English football – for the second year running. The club topped the Fan Engagement Index 2019/20, an index which scores each of the clubs from the Premier League to League Two on the relationship with their fans. It places each club in a league table comprising three areas: dialogue, governance and transparency. Exeter City topped the league, with fellow League Two clubs, Carlisle United and Cambridge United in second and third place respectively.

Sounds like these are the sort of clubs we should be having a dialogue with, given their realistic comparisons.

I said I was going to bed, but this has tempted me back again.

The point here is a really important one about culture.

For decades, Thistle's custodians, even those who have done us considerable good, have at some time or another developed a reputation for being evasive on important questions about finances and governance. Even when the financial story has been positive (like when Colin Weir got us debt free) the governance was anything but open.

To illustrate this even with the most relevant example, the PTFC Trust, which got a 19% shareholding at that time, is an opaque organisation, half of whose trustees are PTFC Board appointees (including the Chief Executive, Gerry Britton). The other three trustees have been hand-picked by the Club as co-opted members. They are presented, for the purposes of the trust deed, as "Supporters Trustees" but in practice they have no mandate from and no visible connection with the supporters.

Two of the PTFC Board Appointees used to be Supporters Trustees, and were (on the face of it) appointed to the Club board as fan representatives to ensure dialogue in the fan ownership journey between the Club Board and the fan organisations. I'm a pretty engaged fan on this stuff and they have been essentially invisible.

By contrast, TJF has no prior opaque relationship with the Club and its current custodians. It doesn't have the baggage. And it proposed a form of fan ownership that has been shown to engage fanbases in a meaningful way. It will come as no surprise to some of you to know that Exeter were among the clubs that people involved with The Working Group have had discussions with when they were pulling together their "model" of fan ownership. These fan movements are also the ones offering public support to TJF in light of recent events.

This is a chance to shine a light on how Thistle is run, and to confront what we want to make of it.

[Woodstock Jag]

7 minutes ago, gianlucatoni said:

a quiet night down in London WJ?!

Thankfully, the governance of Partick Thistle is too obscure for my employers to understand whether or not it's politically restricted activity!

[elevenone]

Euromillions is over 100m this Friday.  Lightening striking twice anyone?

[sandy]

Really helpful posts, thanks @Woodstock Jag

[ChiThistle]

Still nothing from the Board….can you add my name a second time, maybe in a bolded serif font so they know I mean business??  

[JAG1970]

1 hour ago, ChiThistle said:

Still nothing from the Board….can you add my name a second time, maybe in a bolded serif font so they know I mean business??  

PowerPoint would probably catch JL’s attention 

[sandy]

1 hour ago, JAG1970 said:

PowerPoint would probably catch JL’s attention 

Caldwell has some free time to help…

[madcapmilkdrinker]

Please add my name to this, Gavin Williams. And feck it, my son’s too, Archie Williams. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by madcapmilkdrinker
Forgot

[Norgethistle]

13 hours ago, madcapmilkdrinker said:

Please add my name to this, Gavin Williams. And feck it, my son’s too, Archie Williams. 

Thanks added

[Norgethistle]

So to give a breakdown and understanding of the groups and governance of the club and its trusts we’ve compiled and provided the following.

 

Id encourage everyone who cares to join the foundation 
 

 

[Whitburn Jag]

3 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Thanks added

How many names do we have now?

It was 600, I believe

[sandy]

Great stuff again @Norgethistle, sets out the current position really clearly. 

[Norgethistle]

11 minutes ago, Whitburn Jag said:

How many names do we have now?

It was 600, I believe

Hopefully an update to the list soon

[Z88]

3 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

So to give a breakdown and understanding of the groups and governance of the club and its trusts we’ve compiled and provided the following.

 

Id encourage everyone who cares to join the foundation 
 

 

Thanks for this. So looking at this, is it possible that 3BC can decide to gift the shares to PTFC Trust and therefore declare that Colin Weir’s  wishes have been met? 

[Norgethistle]

21 minutes ago, Z88 said:

Thanks for this. So looking at this, is it possible that 3BC can decide to gift the shares to PTFC Trust and therefore declare that Colin Weir’s  wishes have been met? 

Everything is possible, but would you say PTFC Trust is fan controlled or even answerable to the fans? It’s not even had elections in timeframe that was meant to happen.

Has anyone had any feedback from the “fans reps” on the board?