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Ayr away Friday night.


a f kincaid
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4 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Since January we have been the third worst team in the league, better only than Raith Rovers and Queen of the South.

And unfortunately, there's nothing, absolutely nothing, to suggest that we can do any better. The defence can usually do their bit, but then to win we have to rely on our midfield and forward line who are, to be blunt: tragically powder puff. The midfielders are world class proponents of the sideways and backwards passing game, and our forwards with the exception of Tiffoney have no pace, a terrible first touch, and as the evidence shows, pose next to no goal threat against anybody.

 

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4 hours ago, a f kincaid said:

A disappointing January window coupled with an already small squad suffering injuries.  Looks to me that some of the players are running on empty. 17 goals in 20 matches since the turn of the year tells it's own story.

Absolutely.. and the fact it’s two games against ICT makes it harder for us.. wrapping up Tiffoney and Graham in cotton wool underlines the dearth of talent in our squad. ICT are in form and we are obviously not. 
IMC will be emphasising the league form doesn’t matter now but I can’t see us getting through this. Hope above expectation.  

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There were quite a few spaced out Jags fans. Most were quite happy in their own little world, not upsetting anyone, singing, backing the team and not reacting to being goaded by a large Ayr support(which could have turned nasty).

Foster, who has been one of our better players this season, was having a shocker along with several others. He’s a good pundit, well spoken, informative, amusing.  He has a short fuse though.

I don’t believe he’d have punched the abusive fan(haud me back!) but the incident raised an issue. I’ve never doubted his passion or effort for the game or PTFC unlike certain other ex OF players. He was the only player to react. But why should they take that abuse unless they’ve downed tools? Fans should back the team.

But, why did Foster have to walk round the pitch when substituted? Was he encouraging further abuse? 

 

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17 minutes ago, Weebaw1 said:

There were quite a few spaced out Jags fans. Most were quite happy in their own little world, not upsetting anyone, singing, backing the team and not reacting to being goaded by a large Ayr support(which could have turned nasty).

Foster, who has been one of our better players this season, was having a shocker along with several others. He’s a good pundit, well spoken, informative, amusing.  He has a short fuse though.

I don’t believe he’d have punched the abusive fan(haud me back!) but the incident raised an issue. I’ve never doubted his passion or effort for the game or PTFC unlike certain other ex OF players. He was the only player to react. But why should they take that abuse unless they’ve downed tools? Fans should back the team.

But, why did Foster have to walk round the pitch when substituted? Was he encouraging further abuse? 

 

You get fans like that from every club it’s hardly a shock, but I hate when our own fans try and be little people that have made an effort to go and support the team, (our coked up fans) that comment .. Very high and mighty for someone to be assuming fans are “coked up”. 
 

There’s a few times this season I’ve watched Thistle play sober, they were difficult! Wonder if they just live the Thistle but can’t watch the dross for that long! 
 

I don’t mind foster, always felt like he puts 100% in, he is a better right back than McKenna. But when evaluating the squad for next season.. I hope we have a replacement lined up for him.

 

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7 hours ago, Thistle88 said:

You get fans like that from every club it’s hardly a shock, but I hate when our own fans try and be little people that have made an effort to go and support the team, (our coked up fans) that comment .. Very high and mighty for someone to be assuming fans are “coked up”. 
 

I think some of our fans forget what it’s like to be a young fan following your team away from home. 


 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Weebaw1 said:

There were quite a few spaced out Jags fans. Most were quite happy in their own little world, not upsetting anyone, singing, backing the team and not reacting to being goaded by a large Ayr support(which could have turned nasty).

Foster, who has been one of our better players this season, was having a shocker along with several others. He’s a good pundit, well spoken, informative, amusing.  He has a short fuse though.

I don’t believe he’d have punched the abusive fan(haud me back!) but the incident raised an issue. I’ve never doubted his passion or effort for the game or PTFC unlike certain other ex OF players. He was the only player to react. But why should they take that abuse unless they’ve downed tools? Fans should back the team.

But, why did Foster have to walk round the pitch when substituted? Was he encouraging further abuse? 

 

I don't think any player, no matter how bad a game they are having, should be subject to personal abuse either from fans (Cantona) or in fact from other players (Zidane).  I go to  see the Jags hoping for the best but in reality knowing 'the best' will happen only a few times a season.

If a player is giving a 100% but things are not going for him then he still has my support and he certainly doesn't deserve personal abuse. I personally find it difficult to give unqualified support to players who for whatever reason throw in the towel or just disappear in the course of a game.

Foster's attempt to 'speak' to the fan concerned should be dealt with by the club and treated as an aberration and out of character. I for one would, if he is fit and able,  have no problems seeing him in the red and yellow next year.

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13 hours ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

The ONLY reason surely, that teams in the top tier want to have a 12-team league, is the revenue accruing from playing Celtic and Rangers three/four times a season. But, in the other lower leagues with just 10 teams, there is no justification and it must be so deadly dull and boring to meet a team you’ve only just played a month or two before, yet again. (Then there’s the Scottish cup and League cup to increase the meetings!)  Being outside Scotland now, I can only imagine but I don’t think I could work up an enthusiasm for it. I believe a 16-team top tier would be an improvement with a second tier also increased in teams. Reorganisation is badly needed in the Scottish game and that should also include all the governing bodies, some of whom look, too often, unfit for purpose!

Agree completely.

One governing body, probably known as the Scottish Football Association would do it for me.

We also need to reorganise PTFC. I am a supporter of IMC but although we have secured a play-off place something has change within the club. This I think is evident in the differences in  performances from the first to the second half of this season. 

As manager whatever has changed has resulted in issues he has been unable to resolve. I am not sure the dressing room has the same team spirit and togetherness that was so obvious in the first half of the season.

I feel we have too many chiefs with IMC, Scally & Archibald. This needs to be streamlined.

Also we need to settle once and for all the ownership of the club and stadium  - fan wnership, the more traditional form of ownership or some other option. We have to get rid of the uncertainty before we can move forward.

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5 hours ago, exiledjag said:

Agree completely.

One governing body, probably known as the Scottish Football Association would do it for me.

We also need to reorganise PTFC. I am a supporter of IMC but although we have secured a play-off place something has change within the club. This I think is evident in the differences in  performances from the first to the second half of this season. 

As manager whatever has changed has resulted in issues he has been unable to resolve. I am not sure the dressing room has the same team spirit and togetherness that was so obvious in the first half of the season.

I feel we have too many chiefs with IMC, Scally & Archibald. This needs to be streamlined.

Also we need to settle once and for all the ownership of the club and stadium  - fan wnership, the more traditional form of ownership or some other option. We have to get rid of the uncertainty before we can move forward.

I think 2 of those 3 are being addressed and hopefully will be resolved prior to the start of the new season.

The pitch is being relaid. Presumably, that has been one of the issues around the performance difference and probably impacted morale too.

Hopefully the shares will be transferred to the fans as Colin Weir wanted.

Its difficult to know if we have too many chiefs. League 1 champions and playoffs in successive seasons may not have been achieved without it.

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57 minutes ago, sandy said:

Sectarian nonsense should have no place at our Club

 

29 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

The club has asked the fans to stop singing the song referencing a monarch and the head of a Christian denomination, numerous times. I am sure the players don’t want it. It has nothing to do with football or our team. Just stop singing it.

Completely agree. I think the fans also have a certain responsibility to police themselves when it comes to this stuff too. 

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11 hours ago, elevenone said:

This isn't supported by the video evidence.

There is no audible sectarian abuse in the moments immediately prior to him going all Scrappy Doo at the end of the first half.

There is, on the other hand, audio evidence of someone off camera saying sectarian nonsense when the players came out for the second half.

For Foster to have been provoked by sectarian abuse, he'd have to have been a time traveler.

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12 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

This isn't supported by the video evidence.

There is no audible sectarian abuse in the moments immediately prior to him going all Scrappy Doo at the end of the first half.

There is, on the other hand, audio evidence of someone off camera saying sectarian nonsense when the players came out for the second half.

For Foster to have been provoked by sectarian abuse, he'd have to have been a time traveler.

He may well have heard "sectarian abuse" any time during the first half. 

Not directed at WJ but a player well known for having a shortish fuse losing the plot is a minor league problem compared to a fan spouting bigoted crap.

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Just as I can't understand the need to rush to social media to post these types of video, I can't understand why someone would think the bigger issue is when (not if btw, but when) sectarian abuse was heard, and not the fact that a Thistle fan was hurling sectarian abuse. 

Of course Foster shouldn't have reacted the way he did but his reaction was a human one, albeit a human failing. Is anyone denying that he was subjected to personal abuse relating to his wife and sectarian abuse? Are we really focusing on what and when he heard?

The Thistle fan in question (and again there is no question whatsoever that sectarian slurs were shouted at one of our players) should be utterly ashamed of their actions. Ashamed at tarnishing the reputation of Partick Thistle supporters. That is the only issue for me. Anything else is just an attempt at misdirection.  

 

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2 hours ago, admin said:

Just as I can't understand the need to rush to social media to post these types of video, I can't understand why someone would think the bigger issue is when (not if btw, but when) sectarian abuse was heard, and not the fact that a Thistle fan was hurling sectarian abuse. 

Who thinks this?

The question of when is relevant to the justification he is offering for his actions (that he was provoked).

Any sane person takes it for granted that the sectarian abuse that was uttered was completely unacceptable and should be punished.

2 hours ago, admin said:

Of course Foster shouldn't have reacted the way he did but his reaction was a human one, albeit a human failing. Is anyone denying that he was subjected to personal abuse relating to his wife and sectarian abuse? Are we really focusing on what and when he heard?

It's relevant to whether the way he conducted himself is understandable and excusable.

2 hours ago, admin said:

The Thistle fan in question (and again there is no question whatsoever that sectarian slurs were shouted at one of our players) should be utterly ashamed of their actions. Ashamed at tarnishing the reputation of Partick Thistle supporters.

No one on here seems to be disagreeing with this sentiment. At all.

2 hours ago, admin said:

That is the only issue for me. Anything else is just an attempt at misdirection.  

It is possible to address two issues at the same time.

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8 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Who thinks this?

The question of when is relevant to the justification he is offering for his actions (that he was provoked).

Any sane person takes it for granted that the sectarian abuse that was uttered was completely unacceptable and should be punished.

It's relevant to whether the way he conducted himself is understandable and excusable.

No one on here seems to be disagreeing with this sentiment. At all.

It is possible to address two issues at the same time.

Given that you were quick to rush to various football forums to post the video complete with a now much repeated 'amusing' comment (while the game was still in progress I believe) without any attempt to try and establish some kind of context for Foster's behaviour, have made next to no comment on the personal abuse that Foster received, other than to describe it as being the "tame end of offensive" , have made no more than passing reference until pressed to the sectarian abuse, have made reference to Foster being some kind of ambassador, erroneously claiming that he was part of the Women's Team coaching staff, it's not an illogical conclusion to come to that you consider Foster's behaviour as being the primary issue here. 

It's certainly a more logical conclusion to come to than the assertion that Foster would need to be a time traveller to have heard any sectarian abuse prior to the start of the second half simply because none is audible on a short video. 

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2 hours ago, admin said:

Given that you were quick to rush to various football forums to post the video complete with a now much repeated 'amusing' comment (while the game was still in progress I believe) without any attempt to try and establish some kind of context for Foster's behaviour

"Various football forums" - Two.

But also "Given that"... then... what, exactly?

The context for his behaviour was in the original video, including the 10 or so seconds before Foster even reached the touchline, let alone the terraces. It shows that Foster and other players were facing generic abuse and criticism. Things like "you're a ******* embarrassment" "you don't deserve the playoffs" and "you're ******* terrible". All pretty "tame" fare, whether or not it is to your taste.

There was no evidence to support any suggestion of sectarian language or abuse (or indeed anything specific or untoward targeted at Foster or his family). Indeed the remark that prompts Foster to look up and go mental, as the videos (plural) show, was "get a grip you, you ******* idiot".

Any sectarianism is inappropriate and unacceptable. In this case, however, it doesn't provide "context" to Foster's actions. Because there is no evidence that it happened before he acted.

Quote

have made next to no comment on the personal abuse that Foster received, other than to describe it as being the "tame end of offensive" , have made no more than passing reference until pressed to the sectarian abuse, have made reference to Foster being some kind of ambassador, erroneously claiming that he was part of the Women's Team coaching staff, it's not an illogical conclusion to come to that you consider Foster's behaviour as being the primary issue here.

Except I explicitly condemned the second video (just not on here, elsewhere) as, and I quote, "sectarian guff" and "bang out of order". I don't need to set out my views that sectarianism is wrong in every single setting. This isn't Virtue Signal Thursday.

Edit to add: in fact it turns out I even did condemn the sectarianism on here when reports of it first surfaced along with the video in which it is documented as "sectarian nonsense" which was "inexcusable". It was my first post about the incident after the second half video entered the public domain! Hardly "until pressed"!

We can condemn it without trying to twist it into an excuse for Foster's frankly embarrassing behaviour.

I did not "erroneously claim" that he was part of the women's team's coaching staff. I asked whether he was, and pointed out that as a senior player who holds, or has held, additional responsibilities at the Club ought to be expected to behave with more restraint. You helpfully pointed out that he had actually stepped down from that role last season and I thanked you for clarifying.

You're frankly coming across as a little bit weird here.

Quote

It's certainly a more logical conclusion to come to than the assertion that Foster would need to be a time traveller to have heard any sectarian abuse prior to the start of the second half simply because none is audible on a short video. 

It really isn't. The videos (plural) in question cover from when Foster is still on the pitch right through to when he turns and decides to pick a fight with a fan. That is all the context you need to know that it is implausible that sectarian abuse triggered the response. The videos clearly show that Foster reacts to the remark "get a grip you, you ******* idiot".

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2 hours ago, admin said:

Given that you were quick to rush to various football forums to post the video complete with a now much repeated 'amusing' comment (while the game was still in progress I believe) without any attempt to try and establish some kind of context for Foster's behaviour, have made next to no comment on the personal abuse that Foster received, other than to describe it as being the "tame end of offensive" , have made no more than passing reference until pressed to the sectarian abuse, have made reference to Foster being some kind of ambassador, erroneously claiming that he was part of the Women's Team coaching staff, it's not an illogical conclusion to come to that you consider Foster's behaviour as being the primary issue here. 

It's certainly a more logical conclusion to come to than the assertion that Foster would need to be a time traveller to have heard any sectarian abuse prior to the start of the second half simply because none is audible on a short video. 

There are 2 sets of videos.

(1) Those at start of halftime don’t show any sectarianism or personal abuse towards his wife, but more very heavy criticism towards performance with some very “industrial” language, but no more than you’ll hear on the park between players or towards referees. 

(2)Those at end of halftime directed towards Foster with vile sectarianism and personal comments towards his wife.

Foster reacted (over reacted) to the first set of videos at start of halftime.

Whether the second set at the end of halftime are a reaction towards Fosters attempt to square up are irrelevant as that content is not acceptable at Firhill or in society in general. 

 

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1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

"Various football forums" - Two.

But also "Given that"... then... what, exactly?

The context for his behaviour was in the original video, including the 10 or so seconds before Foster even reached the touchline, let alone the terraces. It shows that Foster and other players were facing generic abuse and criticism. Things like "you're a ******* embarrassment" "you don't deserve the playoffs" and "you're ******* terrible". All pretty "tame" fare, whether or not it is to your taste.

There was no evidence to support any suggestion of sectarian language or abuse (or indeed anything specific or untoward targeted at Foster or his family). Indeed the remark that prompts Foster to look up and go mental, as the videos (plural) show, was "get a grip you, you ******* idiot".

Any sectarianism is inappropriate and unacceptable. In this case, however, it doesn't provide "context" to Foster's actions. Because there is no evidence that it happened before he acted.

Except I explicitly condemned the second video (just not on here, elsewhere) as, and I quote, "sectarian guff" and "bang out of order". I don't need to set out my views that sectarianism is wrong in every single setting. This isn't Virtue Signal Thursday.

Edit to add: in fact it turns out I even did condemn the sectarianism on here when reports of it first surfaced along with the video in which it is documented as "sectarian nonsense" which was "inexcusable". It was my first post about the incident after the second half video entered the public domain! Hardly "until pressed"!

We can condemn it without trying to twist it into an excuse for Foster's frankly embarrassing behaviour.

I did not "erroneously claim" that he was part of the women's team's coaching staff. I asked whether he was, and pointed out that as a senior player who holds, or has held, additional responsibilities at the Club ought to be expected to behave with more restraint. You helpfully pointed out that he had actually stepped down from that role last season and I thanked you for clarifying.

You're frankly coming across as a little bit weird here.

It really isn't. The videos (plural) in question cover from when Foster is still on the pitch right through to when he turns and decides to pick a fight with a fan. That is all the context you need to know that it is implausible that sectarian abuse triggered the response. The videos clearly show that Foster reacts to the remark "get a grip you, you ******* idiot".

Your lengthy reply, which focuses more on 'when' what was said rather than the nature of what was said, doesn't really convince me that you don't consider Foster's behaviour to be the more important issue here. 

He admits himself he was wrong to react and, of course, he was. 

I'm more concerned at the fact that sectarian abuse was hurled in his direction than how he behaved. 

And just as an aside to end my own involvement in this debate, the absence of video evidence of sectarian abuse isn't proof that there wasn't any or conclusive proof of when it was delivered. It would be a false premise to suggest otherwise. 

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41 minutes ago, admin said:

Your lengthy reply, which focuses more on 'when' what was said rather than the nature of what was said, doesn't really convince me that you don't consider Foster's behaviour to be the more important issue here. 

Things that are plainly wrong can be dealt with succinctly.

Things about which there is misunderstanding or disagreement (for example some people not realising that the video with audible sectarian abuse came after, not before, the Scrappy Doo incident) usually involve more discussion.

This is not an indication of priorities or importance, but accuracy.

Quote

He admits himself he was wrong to react and, of course, he was.

But he’s offering something as an excuse for which there is no (disclosed or apparent) evidence.

Quote

I'm more concerned at the fact that sectarian abuse was hurled in his direction than how he behaved.

I am concerned about both. The existence of sectarianism within our fanbase isn’t a reason not to care about the example our senior players set.

Quote

And just as an aside to end my own involvement in this debate, the absence of video evidence of sectarian abuse isn't proof that there wasn't any or conclusive proof of when it was delivered. It would be a false premise to suggest otherwise. 

No one is suggesting that it is “proof” or “conclusive proof”.

But in the absence of evidence, and the absence of a reasonable explanation for the absence of evidence, the onus is on those claiming there was sectarian abuse to provoke him, not on those who say videos of the original incident disclose no evidence of it.

The video provides prima facie evidence that he reacted to the remark “get a grip you, you ******* idiot”. It was immediately after that that Foster turned around, and nothing else was said before he started to make a beeline for the fans.

Those are the facts as documented, and they are supported by other eye-witness accounts.

Condemnation should focus on things that actually happened.

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6 hours ago, sandy said:

I think we are all actually saying the same thing.  There was abuse of some kind, Foster reacted. 

To paraphrase an old saying, this weeks newspapers are next weeks fish & chip wrappers. 

Pretty much like the contents of most of this thread.

And for some of us older folk, not so much fish and chip wrappers as poor quality toilet paper.

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