Championship side, championship manager

[TartanC4]

Actually thought that we played well first half, few chances, shot off the bar and good save, couple half flick ons, and few crosses. But overall not got enough, lacking shooting power, just relying on Brian Graham, Tiffony and Banigan trying to break up play in midfield. Just seemed to fizzle out, selling Rudden doesn't make sense, no ambition. If you are pushing for promotion, playoffs etc, strong squad. There has been very questionable decision at the club, alot of uncertainty. Ok deep breath and try and see what happens in the summer. Will we keep Tiffony? Will Graham have another season? 

[Thistle88]

We done ourselves proud tonight In my opinion, looking forward to next season. Especially seeing a few players leave, and bringing players in. 
 

For our first season back in the championship it’s been a decent season, I think it’s been much harder to watch because of certain things but 4th at the start of the season I’d have taken it. 
 

We have a decent core of players going into next season I hope the board back McCall and get his targets in sharp.

Title challenge next season !

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I had a quick look back at our squad at the end of the season before we won the Championship. That squad included I think eight players that went on to play for us two seasons later in the top tier plus Erskine who returned on loan. I look at our squad of today and find it hard to imagine more than one or two that could step up a division. I dare say we can strengthen the squad to challenge for promotion but we still need to have players capable of top flight football. Back in season 2011/12 we had ATS, SOD, Doolan, Welsh etc already in place.

McCall's targets have to include mostly young players of potential with the odd experienced player to provide a steading hand. Not the other way round.

[Third Lanark]

3 hours ago, TartanC4 said:

Actually thought that we played well first half, few chances, shot off the bar and good save, couple half flick ons, and few crosses. But overall not got enough, lacking shooting power, just relying on Brian Graham, Tiffony and Banigan trying to break up play in midfield. Just seemed to fizzle out, selling Rudden doesn't make sense, no ambition. If you are pushing for promotion, playoffs etc, strong squad. There has been very questionable decision at the club, alot of uncertainty. Ok deep breath and try and see what happens in the summer. Will we keep Tiffony? Will Graham have another season? 

Relying on Bannigan is wrong IMO- has been off form since January 

[Dick Dastardly]

Spoiler alert ...... I am not a McCall fan !!!!

I know that 4th is a decent performance for a promoted club, but the standard of this  league is so much worse than anyone might have predicted. Remember that Kilmarnock were 5th when Wright was sacked, so none of the teams around us have set the heather on fire. January transfer dealings have made a huge difference and not in a good way for us or Raith. It could, and probably should have been much better, but even before that, it was in the main pretty turgid to watch us play. There was a comment last night on the BBC text updates that said that we were having plenty of possession, but not creating any chances. I wondered if that was talking about this game or the last 31 months.

What I don't understand is why this is a recurring theme. I can't believe that McCall sends the team out to endlessly pass sideways and backwards before someone gets bored and humps the ball into 2 giant defenders. The playoffs must have been bread and butter for Broadfoot and Devine. So why do we keep doing it ? Is it 

• These ARE the instructions that McCall is giving the players and this is how he wants us to play ?
• The players are not good enough to follow the instructions he is giving them. In which case why does he not try something they can do and why did he resign so many who cant do what he wants
• He has lost the dressing room and the players are just doing their own thing

I know that many are asking for a clear out of players and certainly there are some who are not good enough, but the bigger issue is that we need a different style. something that is effective and actionable by the players. Just a change of players just doing the same thing is not the answer.

[exiledjag]

Every manager signs players who don't make the grade it goes with the job.

Even the great Alex Ferguson signed some that didn't live up to expectations!

The guy was set a target to reach the play-offs and he did this. Job done!

Kilmarnock, ICT and Raith all had bad runs. Arbroath wobbled a bit. The important point was they had their bad runs when there was still enough game ahead to enable them to recover. We had our bad run in the last third of the season with no time to recover. The state of the pitch was a problem but so was playing 2 games a week  for 3/4 weeks to play our games in hand. 

Oh and I should say I am a IMC fan. He is   much better manager than Caldwell or latterly Archibald.

 

 

[dl1971]

14 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Spoiler alert ...... I am not a McCall fan !!!!

I know that 4th is a decent performance for a promoted club, but the standard of this  league is so much worse than anyone might have predicted. Remember that Kilmarnock were 5th when Wright was sacked, so none of the teams around us have set the heather on fire. January transfer dealings have made a huge difference and not in a good way for us or Raith. It could, and probably should have been much better, but even before that, it was in the main pretty turgid to watch us play. There was a comment last night on the BBC text updates that said that we were having plenty of possession, but not creating any chances. I wondered if that was talking about this game or the last 31 months.

What I don't understand is why this is a recurring theme. I can't believe that McCall sends the team out to endlessly pass sideways and backwards before someone gets bored and humps the ball into 2 giant defenders. The playoffs must have been bread and butter for Broadfoot and Devine. So why do we keep doing it ? Is it 

• These ARE the instructions that McCall is giving the players and this is how he wants us to play ?
• The players are not good enough to follow the instructions he is giving them. In which case why does he not try something they can do and why did he resign so many who cant do what he wants
• He has lost the dressing room and the players are just doing their own thing

I know that many are asking for a clear out of players and certainly there are some who are not good enough, but the bigger issue is that we need a different style. something that is effective and actionable by the players. Just a change of players just doing the same thing is not the answer.

What you are saying is fundamentally true, but every single support says that about their team if there are not promoted, mid table obscurity or relegation fodder. I think McCall deserves and will be given the August to January period to see what occurs. I certainly don't want a hibs scenario where they spend millions paying of managers. Only a fool would wish that on our club  

 

[Woodstock Jag]

Part of the difficulty here is that the squad looks and feels noticeably weaker than it did at the start of the season.

It regressed from being the 4th best (and only narrowly behind the top 3) in the first half of the season, streets ahead of the bottom half, to being the 3rd worst in the league in the second half, and the worst in the final quarter.

The only reason we scraped the play-offs was because teams like Hamilton and Morton had absolute shocker first halves to the season and recovered, whereas Raith Rovers had a complete cluster**** of a 3rd quarter.

If we were to run a new season with current squads but with Dundee in place of Killie, Cove instead of Queens, Airdrie or Queen's Park instead of Dunfermline, ask yourself where you think we'd finish.

I'd say about 7th or 8th at best. We don't create many chances. We're not a dynamic team. And at the back we aren't well organised. We have actively regressed, and that's not just because we've lost Rudden (who was taking the pressure off an ageing Brian Graham.)

McNamara's side finished 6th the year before we went up, but it looked like it was settled, had a clear core, and was going places towards the end of 2011-12. To a lesser extent, the same was true of the 2007-08 season under McCall, when we finished 6th, and followed it up with 2nd place to St Johnstone.

Obviously McCall has to be given a summer window to shape his team, but I don't come out of this season thinking the momentum is with us; quite the contrary. That's what is worrying for me.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Woodstock Jag

[dl1971]

5 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Part of the difficulty here is that the squad looks and feels noticeably weaker than it did at the start of the season.

It regressed from being the 4th best (and only narrowly behind the top 3) in the first half of the season, streets ahead of the bottom half, to being the 3rd worst in the league in the second half, and the worst in the final quarter.

The only reason we scraped the play-offs was because teams like Hamilton and Morton had absolute shocker first halves to the season and recovered, whereas Raith Rovers had a complete cluster**** of a 3rd quarter.

If we were to run a new season with current squads but with Dundee in place of Killie, Cove instead of Queens, Airdrie or Queen's Park instead of Dunfermline, ask yourself where you think we'd finish.

I'd say about 7th or 8th at best. We don't create many chances. We're not a dynamic team. And at the back we aren't well organised. We have actively regressed, and that's not just because we've lost Rudden (who was taking the pressure off an ageing Brian Graham.)

McNamara's side finished 6th the year before we went up, but it looked like it was settled, had a clear core, and was going places towards the end of 2011-12. To a lesser extent, the same was true of the 2007-08 season under McCall, when we finished 6th, and followed it up with 2nd place to St Johnstone.

Obviously McCall has to be given a summer window to shape his team, but I don't come out of this season thinking the momentum is with us; quite the contrary. That's what is worrying for me.

Last 10 games I agree the momentum is not with us, but base that on a longer period it is. Just depends on how you view it. 

[jlsarmy]

5 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Part of the difficulty here is that the squad looks and feels noticeably weaker than it did at the start of the season.

It regressed from being the 4th best (and only narrowly behind the top 3) in the first half of the season, streets ahead of the bottom half, to being the 3rd worst in the league in the second half, and the worst in the final quarter.

The only reason we scraped the play-offs was because teams like Hamilton and Morton had absolute shocker first halves to the season and recovered, whereas Raith Rovers had a complete cluster**** of a 3rd quarter.

If we were to run a new season with current squads but with Dundee in place of Killie, Cove instead of Queens, Airdrie or Queen's Park instead of Dunfermline, ask yourself where you think we'd finish.

I'd say about 7th or 8th at best. We don't create many chances. We're not a dynamic team. And at the back we aren't well organised. We have actively regressed, and that's not just because we've lost Rudden (who was taking the pressure off an ageing Brian Graham.)

McNamara's side finished 6th the year before we went up, but it looked like it was settled, had a clear core, and was going places towards the end of 2011-12. To a lesser extent, the same was true of the 2007-08 season under McCall, when we finished 6th, and followed it up with 2nd place to St Johnstone.

Obviously McCall has to be given a summer window to shape his team, but I don't come out of this season thinking the momentum is with us; quite the contrary. That's what is worrying for me.

Agree with your views ,  but the most worrying thing we haven’t got any style of play .

No pressing game as we haven’t got the players for that because they haven’t got the fitness to play that type of game .

No wing backs to give us width and create .

Only pace in the team is Tiffoney and very little goalscoring threat .

Genuinely worried for our Club on and off the park.

[Fawlty Towers]

I am not going to make this a lengthy post you will be glad to hear but I like to keep things simple. We finished 4th because we were the 4th best team just as we finished 1st in League One because we were the best team. It, I must confess, annoys me to hear people arguing we only achieved something because nearly every other team decided to implode and it was good luck especially when these are the people who will say that we deserved to be relegated in the Covid shortened season because we were bottom and that it was we deserved - no mention of bad luck allowed. If you look at league positions week in week out we were never out of the top 5 all season so I don't think our final position was anything to be surprised about. I take a slightly different position to Woodstock Jag in that if we can finish 4th with a poor run from January then why can't we finish higher next season if we just turn that in to even an average run?

I bet your glad I kept it short and sweet!

[Fearchar]

Who - if anyone - is doing the scouting these days? That may be even more important than the management team - certainly if players coming through from the youth teams only end up being loaned out and then released.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Fearchar
Typo

[Woodstock Jag]

4 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

I am not going to make this a lengthy post you will be glad to hear but I like to keep things simple. We finished 4th because we were the 4th best team just as we finished 1st in League One because we were the best team. It, I must confess, annoys me to hear people arguing we only achieved something because nearly every other team decided to implode and it was good luck especially when these are the people who will say that we deserved to be relegated in the Covid shortened season because we were bottom and that it was we deserved - no mention of bad luck allowed. If you look at league positions week in week out we were never out of the top 5 all season so I don't think our final position was anything to be surprised about. I take a slightly different position to Woodstock Jag in that if we can finish 4th with a poor run from January then why can't we finish higher next season if we just turn that in to even an average run?

I bet your glad I kept it short and sweet!

I guess I just consider the second half of the season to be a better indicator of where we are now than the first half.

Football is a momentum business. We won the 3rd tier because we absolutely romped the final half of the season.

That only happened because McCall made some important changes in personnel and strategy during the enforced break.

Before that we were (at one point) in serious danger of not even making the playoffs.

[Dick Dastardly]

31 minutes ago, dl1971 said:

What you are saying is fundamentally true, but every single support says that about their team if there are not promoted, mid table obscurity or relegation fodder. I think McCall deserves and will be given the August to January period to see what occurs. I certainly don't want a hibs scenario where they spend millions paying of managers. Only a fool would wish that on our club  

 

I think he has had 31 months, so nobody could accuse it of hire ‘em fire ‘em. Predominately that period has been mediocre at best and arguably getting worse. I would consider the last 4 months to be some of the worst I have ever seen from any Thistle team, especially over a prolonged spell.

And before you say “the pitch”, both teams had the same pitch and it is our pitch so we should have adapted better

[Fawlty Towers]

1 minute ago, Woodstock Jag said:

I guess I just consider the second half of the season to be a better indicator of where we are now than the first half.

Football is a momentum business. We won the 3rd tier because we absolutely romped the final half of the season.

That only happened because McCall made some important changes in personnel and strategy during the enforced break.

Before that we were (at one point) in serious danger of not even making the playoffs.

It is always interesting at the end of a season as normally there is one team who started well and then tailed off and another who did it the other way. Now both teams may have finished in the same area of the table but the team who finished well always feels better about themselves. Given we now have a break and there will be changes in the squad and the 2 pre contracts so far look good I would like to think we can do better next season. Sometimes in these situations it is also as simple as an individual's disposition - some people always look for positives others are more analytical and there is no criticism intended to anyone in that - just an observation.

Anyway, I am a voter and you should remember we are always right!

[Auld Jag]

1 hour ago, Fawlty Towers said:

I am not going to make this a lengthy post you will be glad to hear but I like to keep things simple. We finished 4th because we were the 4th best team just as we finished 1st in League One because we were the best team. It, I must confess, annoys me to hear people arguing we only achieved something because nearly every other team decided to implode and it was good luck especially when these are the people who will say that we deserved to be relegated in the Covid shortened season because we were bottom and that it was we deserved - no mention of bad luck allowed. If you look at league positions week in week out we were never out of the top 5 all season so I don't think our final position was anything to be surprised about. I take a slightly different position to Woodstock Jag in that if we can finish 4th with a poor run from January then why can't we finish higher next season if we just turn that in to even an average run?

I bet your glad I kept it short and sweet!

I was going to post something similar. Unless you support one of the ugly sisters, Man City or Liverpool, your season will probably be up and down. Motherwell have won 2 out of their last 16 games but are in pole position for the last European place, Ross County didn't win any of their first 10 league games but still made top 6. Even Kilmarnock who won our league had a few dodgy runs even after sacking their manager.

[dl1971]

1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I think he has had 31 months, so nobody could accuse it of hire ‘em fire ‘em. Predominately that period has been mediocre at best and arguably getting worse. I would consider the last 4 months to be some of the worst I have ever seen from any Thistle team, especially over a prolonged spell.

And before you say “the pitch”, both teams had the same pitch and it is our pitch so we should have adapted better

I agree we have been rubbish since January  Not enjoyed it at all Could  another manager done better. Maybe.

Edited May 7, 2022 by dl1971

[lady-isobel-barnett]

14 hours ago, dl1971 said:

I agree we have been rubbish since January  Not enjoyed it at all Could  another manager done better. Maybe.

No one can doubt that the January transfer window was at best disappointing. Apart from the Rudden issue we failed to strengthen in areas where we were weak. We were still experimenting with starting elevens right up to and including Friday night. Clearly a major fault in management. I'll give McCall some latitude re the hoofball at Firhill and blame the pitch. But we had poor displays on grass at Arbroath, Inverness, Dunfermline & Morton. In short what should've been our B game (the hoofball at Firhill) became too often our A game. Besides we were poor with the long ball game in this first place. We may even be over critical of certain players (mostly midfield) when playing the way we too often did was literately over their heads.

If there was to have been an effective change of manager it would've had to occur a few weeks before the end of the year, at the very time we were winning every game. So it's purely academic if a change of manager would've got us promoted. Unless McCall decided to move on it was never going to happen. Obviously recruitment over the summer will be crucial but perhaps of equal importance will be the way we set out to play. Those two factors will/should determine how long the current manager remains in charge

[jlsarmy]

11 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

No one can doubt that the January transfer window was at best disappointing. Apart from the Rudden issue we failed to strengthen in areas where we were weak. We were still experimenting with starting elevens right up to and including Friday night. Clearly a major fault in management. I'll give McCall some latitude re the hoofball at Firhill and blame the pitch. But we had poor displays on grass at Arbroath, Inverness, Dunfermline & Morton. In short what should've been our B game (the hoofball at Firhill) became too often our A game. Besides we were poor with the long ball game in this first place. We may even be over critical of certain players (mostly midfield) when playing the way we too often did was literately over their heads.

If there was to have been an effective change of manager it would've had to occur a few weeks before the end of the year, at the very time we were winning every game. So it's purely academic if a change of manager would've got us promoted. Unless McCall decided to move on it was never going to happen. Obviously recruitment over the summer will be crucial but perhaps of equal importance will be the way we set out to play. Those two factors will/should determine how long the current manager remains in charge

Should McCall not know his preferred style of play 30 months down the line ? 
You’re absolutely right , I think McCall wasn’t even sure of his best team right up until the end of the season.

 

 

[Lenziejag]

18 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Part of the difficulty here is that the squad looks and feels noticeably weaker than it did at the start of the season.

It regressed from being the 4th best (and only narrowly behind the top 3) in the first half of the season, streets ahead of the bottom half, to being the 3rd worst in the league in the second half, and the worst in the final quarter.

The only reason we scraped the play-offs was because teams like Hamilton and Morton had absolute shocker first halves to the season and recovered, whereas Raith Rovers had a complete cluster**** of a 3rd quarter.

If we were to run a new season with current squads but with Dundee in place of Killie, Cove instead of Queens, Airdrie or Queen's Park instead of Dunfermline, ask yourself where you think we'd finish.

I'd say about 7th or 8th at best. We don't create many chances. We're not a dynamic team. And at the back we aren't well organised. We have actively regressed, and that's not just because we've lost Rudden (who was taking the pressure off an ageing Brian Graham.)

McNamara's side finished 6th the year before we went up, but it looked like it was settled, had a clear core, and was going places towards the end of 2011-12. To a lesser extent, the same was true of the 2007-08 season under McCall, when we finished 6th, and followed it up with 2nd place to St Johnstone.

Obviously McCall has to be given a summer window to shape his team, but I don't come out of this season thinking the momentum is with us; quite the contrary. That's what is worrying for me.

I agree with you about momentum and your analysis of the season just past. But the two paragraphs about current squads is just words, as we already know we aren’t running with the squad we have and neither will any of the other teams.

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

I agree with you about momentum and your analysis of the season just past. But the two paragraphs about current squads is just words, as we already know we aren’t running with the squad we have and neither will any of the other teams.

Oh I agree, but it suggests we have a big job to do in the summer transfer window, and that the core of a championship winning team probably isn’t there.

Compare and contrast with 2011-12 where we had Fox, O’Donnell, Balatoni, Archibald, Elliott, Sinclair, Paton, Bannigan, Welsh, Erskine, and Doolan all on the books.

Or put another way, our defence and midfield were basically sorted and we had attacking options. And even then we relied on bringing in Muirhead, Forbes, Murray, Lawless, Craigen and Craig. It wasn’t a quiet window.

My instinct is we both don’t have a particularly settled core this year, that at least one of our decent players is offski, and that there’s a big summer on McCall’s hands.

[Lenziejag]

14 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Oh I agree, but it suggests we have a big job to do in the summer transfer window, and that the core of a championship winning team probably isn’t there.

Compare and contrast with 2011-12 where we had Fox, O’Donnell, Balatoni, Archibald, Elliott, Sinclair, Paton, Bannigan, Welsh, Erskine, and Doolan all on the books.

Or put another way, our defence and midfield were basically sorted and we had attacking options. And even then we relied on bringing in Muirhead, Forbes, Murray, Lawless, Craigen and Craig. It wasn’t a quiet window.

My instinct is we both don’t have a particularly settled core this year, that at least one of our decent players is offski, and that there’s a big summer on McCall’s hands.

Yes, but that is looking backwards. I don’t think anyone thought at the end of the 2011/12,  from 6th place we would be getting promoted. I think that McCall will think that our defence and midfield is basically sorted as it is. He will probably try for a rwb in place of Foster. I am pretty sure Crawford will stay. 
Somebody said that he already had 7 on or near signed on PCA’s a couple of weeks ago, but were still involved in playoffs. Let’s see if anything happens this week.

[Yellow & Redneck]

One of the key issues is McCall's stubborn insistence that Bannigan is the best CM in the division, and Docherty is the second best. It's been a real bugbear of mine for the past two seasons. 

[Woodstock Jag]

17 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Yes, but that is looking backwards. I don’t think anyone thought at the end of the 2011/12,  from 6th place we would be getting promoted. I think that McCall will think that our defence and midfield is basically sorted as it is. He will probably try for a rwb in place of Foster. I am pretty sure Crawford will stay. 
Somebody said that he already had 7 on or near signed on PCA’s a couple of weeks ago, but were still involved in playoffs. Let’s see if anything happens this week.

I think most folk thought that with a half decent summer we were in with a shout.

I am not confident as things stand that we’ll be involved in the right set of playoffs next year.

That might change depending on how much business McCall gets done early doors and how good it is.

[Barney Rubble]

4 hours ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

One of the key issues is McCall's stubborn insistence that Bannigan is the best CM in the division, and Docherty is the second best. It's been a real bugbear of mine for the past two seasons. 

Bannigan isn't even the best midfielder at Firhill anymore.

It's high time that was admitted.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Barney Rubble