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7 hours ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

TJF are working extremely hard to bring more fans into the Foundation fold, and support TJF being the vehicle for ownership of the 51% PTFC shares. The idea of meetings to encourage fans-members and non members- to attend is a good one, as is the badge shown above. The Davie McParland image suggests it will be a very nice quality item, and many members will want to collect all the others. With 600 members and only 100 badges for each player, it is most likely to be be a sell-out, with some being unlucky!  But, two statistics reveal that there is still much work to do, including explanation and persuasion, when it comes to getting more supporters to join TJF. Ie 660 have joined TJF, whilst 1300 have bought a season ticket. Why is this? There are always going to be some who choose not to join TJF, as there are are always some who chose not to do…’anything’ (we can think of!) but WHY such a disparity?

This large group, who haven’t signed up clearly all have their reasons and there could be a lot of very different ones. But, the task remains for TJF to reach out and make contact with these people somehow. To find out some of the reasons and see if they can be resolved and non-members persuaded. There may be many ways of doing this, but contact has to be made. Eg open meetings where Thistle supporters can attend and ask questions, questionnaires on-line and perhaps given out at the turnstiles. ‘Interviewing’ fans before matches could be useful. These are just a few examples. 

But, the type of majority supporter-ownership I want to see is independent, where the leadership is able to make decisions whilst not beholden to anyone but the members, to whom it is accountable by on-going democracy. That principle should not be compromised on the way to making this vision possible, attainable, for the sake of anyone else or any thing. That should be THE red line. It certainly must be with regard to negotiations on the way to it happening.

I may have come across in the past as being critical of TJF, but, it was always more that I was/remain sceptical of the ‘other side’ (if this is the right phrase!)  In fact, I have been a supporter of football club supporter-ownership for a number of years, certainly well-before it was  mooted as a possible model for PTFC. I wish TJF well and those leading it seem to be taking things in the right direction. May this carry on being so!

I’ll try and address some of these points as best as I can.

Pin Badges

We're deliberately keeping these limited as the quality is excellent and we wish these do become collectible, this is based on advice from other clubs doing similar. We have some fantastic ones coming over the next year, and the quality is excellent.

Numbers Vs Season Tickets.

Season ticket numbers include U16’s whilst ours don’t. Season tickets are also long established whilst we are relatively new, but our numbers have grown by more than 20% in 5 weeks, yes we want every season ticket (and pay at the gate) fan to sign up, but whilst 100% of our fan base is Jags fans and want to watch the team, we will never get 100% to sign up, some aren’t interested, some against it, and some skeptical. We do though want to grow this as far as we can, and we have ideas on this.

Engaging with fans. 

We have the barbecue organized and other events on the horizon, plus we will be at games, on buses, basically everywhere we can to answer as many questions as possible and engage with as many fans as we can. Everyone of the 9 board members (even me)  are easy to reach out to and more than happy to answer what we can.

 

First and foremost we are a members organization the elected board answer to them, represent them and effectively can be removed by them if we don’t perform. 

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2 hours ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Thanks for info. Under-16s currently don’t pay much or nothing for season tickets? Not sure on this. Would they have to pay to be members of TJF or do they have to be 18? Season tickets, as you say, are likely to be long established, but they are a useful indicator of the core fanbase. Do you think it’s worth having a presence at the ‘Open Day’?

Under 16’s cannot be members of the Foundation as law does not allow them to, but can be enlisted as “Friends of the foundation” we do not count these in our numbers.

We plan where feasible to have a presence at as much of the club events as possible, that includes open day if possible 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good afternoon everyone.

A couple of things to update people on. A specific update on the latest with Three Black Cats to follow later this evening.

Update on Thistle Pins

Please note our update on McParland Pins. These should (we hope!) be ready to collect by the Montrose game on Saturday 23rd July. If this changes we'll let you know, on here, on the website and on our other socials media platforms.

If you chose to have your McParland delivered, you can, if you wish, make a donation towards postal costs using the donate page on the website. We'll be in touch when these are ready to be posted out.

If you're one of the first 600 active members, you should have received an email on 4th July with a unique link to the form to complete to claim your McParland Pin. If you are a member and didn't receive this, drop an email to [email protected] and we'll look into it for you.

Foundation Summer Barbecue

Thank you to everyone who RSVPed to attend the Foundation Summer BBQ. It sounds like we'll have pretty much a capacity crowd at the BrewHaus Beer Garden on Sunday 31st July.  The new Board are looking forward to seeing lots of Jags fans there for (fingers crossed!) a sunny and entertaining afternoon.

Remember to join the Foundation!

As always, we would urge you to sign-up to the Foundation as a member if you haven't already. We have continued to grow since breaking through the 600 barrier just under a fortnight ago.

If you don't feel able to join at the moment, but want to show your support for us and to keep in the loop about our latest updates, or if you're under 16, you can become a Friend of the Foundation instead.

And of course, follow us on the socials:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheJagsFoundation

Twitter: https://twitter.com/Jags_Foundation

Instagram: https://instagram.com/thejagsfoundation

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-jags-foundation/

Get in touch

If you have any ideas for or want to help the Foundation, make sure to email [email protected]

For membership enquiries, use [email protected]

For questions about the up-coming Summer BBQ, use [email protected]

Edited by Woodstock Jag
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Good evening everyone

Update on talks with Three Black Cats on fan ownership

As promised, here is our update on talks with Three Black Cats.

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/update-on-progress-with-three-black-cats/

As alluded to before, please be mindful of the fact that we cannot offer a running commentary of live discussions. We are keen that this process continues to be undertaken in a professional manner and with mutual respect between the parties. We hope that, for now at least, this update gives you a sense of where things are and how far things have progressed.

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27 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Good evening everyone

Update on talks with Three Black Cats on fan ownership

As promised, here is our update on talks with Three Black Cats.

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/update-on-progress-with-three-black-cats/

As alluded to before, please be mindful of the fact that we cannot offer a running commentary of live discussions. We are keen that this process continues to be undertaken in a professional manner and with mutual respect between the parties. We hope that, for now at least, this update gives you a sense of where things are and how far things have progressed.

Thanks. Not as positive as I had hoped for at this stage and I am still unclear as to what TBC's endgame is.

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3 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

Thanks. Not as positive as I had hoped for at this stage and I am still unclear as to what TBC's endgame is.

I wonder if they have one, further than to keep a hold of the shares as long as possible meanwhile ensuring control of the club remains in one person's hands.

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1 hour ago, scotty said:

I wonder if they have one, further than to keep a hold of the shares as long as possible meanwhile ensuring control of the club remains in one person's hands.

Whatever happens, TBC will need to dispose of the shares. TBC itself forms part of Colin Weir's estate.  Unless his inheritors want to continue to own them (contrary to his apparent wishes), it's hard to see TBC itself operating as a long term owner.  The executors should or ought to be seeking to wind up the estate as swiftly as is reasonably possible. 

But I appreciate that your point may not specifically relate to TBC or the Weir inheritors. 

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2 hours ago, stolenscone said:

Whatever happens, TBC will need to dispose of the shares. TBC itself forms part of Colin Weir's estate.  Unless his inheritors want to continue to own them (contrary to his apparent wishes), it's hard to see TBC itself operating as a long term owner.  The executors should or ought to be seeking to wind up the estate as swiftly as is reasonably possible. 

But I appreciate that your point may not specifically relate to TBC or the Weir inheritors. 

If TBC were to set up a "fans" organisation which they control and hand over the shares to them(selves), they may then declare Colin Weir's wishes fulfilled. The fact that TJF has been formed and is operating as a democratically run organisation will stand in the way of what seems like a plan to just continue with the status quo.

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9 hours ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

Low and her cohorts Britton and McCall need to just **** off now!!

Don’t see what McCall has to do with it tbh.  He is just the playing manager nothing to do with the running of the club

Dont know if Britton has any say - does he not just get told what to do by the board

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Obviously can't comment beyond the statement about the discussions, but I notice some posters keep referring to 51%. That's not a relevant figure for Thistle's share distribution.

Three Black Cats holds about 55% of the shares in PTFC Ltd, not 51%.

The PTFC Trust holds about 19% of the shares in PTFC Ltd.

The Jags Trust holds about 7% of the shares in PTFC Ltd.

So assuming that the full 3BC shareholding goes to a fan vehicle, "fan-representing" organisations would notionally hold over 80% of the shares in the Club between them.

From memory, about 10% of PTFC's shares must now form part of Colin Weir's personal estate. He was allocated shares around the time PTFC Trust was created, when he (extremely generously) cleared the Club's very high 6-figure/low 7-figure bank debt.

Lord Kelvin has about a 1.5% shareholding and the remaining 7% or so is held by hundreds of individuals, none being greater than 1%.

There are other fan-owned clubs in Scotland where the proportions are different. For example at St Mirren, it splits:

  • 51% St Mirren Independent Supporters' Association
  • 27.5% Kibble (a social enterprise that does a lot of good work with vulnerable children and young people)
  • circa 21.5% split between hundreds of minor shareholders

At Hearts, it roughly splits:

  • 75% Foundation of Hearts
  • 17% Bidco (Ann Budge's vehicle, which also provides £3.5 million of secured debt to the Club)
  • circa 8% split between hundreds of minor shareholders

At Motherwell, it roughly splits:

  • 76% The Well Society
  • Two individuals with about 4.5% shareholdings each (John Peacock and John Walker)
  • circa 15% split between other minor shareholders

At Morton, the fan ownership vehicle, Morton Club Together, holds approximately a 90% shareholding, with minor shareholders making up the remaining 10%.

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6 minutes ago, scotty said:

Maybe TJF needs to consider working alongside the other fans organisations to look at buying shares from individual fans in order to increase their influence.

This - is there any vehicle / discussion being had to encourage share owners / members of other fan based groups to join TJF, assuming we believe this is the best way forward?

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38 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

it doesn’t matter in the sense it would do the job Colin Weir envisioned. 

How do we know what Colin Weir envisioned ? As far as I know he never said exactly what he wanted (other than majority fan ownership) and it maybe that he did want 3BC to continue to manage the clubs affairs (although I personally think that unlikely). The fact is that we have no idea and never will, so it is therefore wrong to say that what you want is what he wanted.

Unfortunately 3BC now hold all the aces.

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I can see this nonsense from 3BC ending up in court to determine the exact legal meaning of Colin Weir's will.  

Could it be that 3BC's tactic is to divide and rule by claiming that no one fan organisation represents all fans?

In those circumstances, perhaps some sort of binding "Memorandum of Agreement" between The Jags Foundation, The Jags Trust and The PTFC Trust is needed to present a unified fan entity that would deny 3BC from doing that .  Better still what about a legal amalgamation with only one fan group.  (This is so obvious that I must have missed part of the saga.)

I haven't been following this saga too closely, but has the Jags Foundation sought legal opinion on Weir's will?

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24 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

To ‘DD’:

Well, at the time, it was certainly said, that Colin Weir wanted Thistle to become a ‘Community, Majority, Supporter-Owned Football Club’.  There are other examples of this kind of model which perhaps influenced him. Eg St Mirren, Hearts, Motherwell etc. (These clubs and the way they became ‘supporter-owned’ has certainly influenced TJF.) That notion was put forward by ‘Thistle Forever’ which had its supporters and then we were told, Colin Weir was buying out the shareholders who wanted to sell to the Barnsley owner. He was going to give the majority shareholding he’d purchased to PTFC supporters. That’s why, over recent years, a group was set up to take on the shares which eventually was named ‘The Jags Foundation.’ (‘Thistle Forever’ was another of three options.) It’s not just MY interpretation, it’s the interpretation that fans took when TJF came into being for the purpose of being the vehicle for those shares. And, as I said to you on a previous occasion, what is the point of supporter ownership if it leaves the previous people in charge, taking no account of supporter wishes and opinions?

I don’t disagree with any of what you say, but the crucial word you use is “interpretation”. We can therefore state for a fact it is what Colin Wier wanted.

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12 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

The other share-owning supporter groups are not set up in the same way as TJF and cannot just be ‘joined’ to it. We don’t even know if any/all of them support the notion of Thistle being a majority, supporter-owner football club. But, if they do and wanted to join with TJF, they could do so with all the other supporters who are members of TJF. Colin Weir bought a clear majority of the PTFC shares, so that the club would become a community, supporter-owned, football club. A group is needed that believes in that principle, run democratically with an elected, accountable leadership (board). That group IS TJF. There are no others that fit that description and designed for the purpose.

Problem is DMQ, our opinion of what constitutes an acceptable recipient of the shares is irrelevant.  We have somehow to stymie Low's attempts to wriggle out of avoiding our interpretation of of Weir's will, while obtaining a legal decision on that. 

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We know quite a few Thistle fans have been asking questions about what "fan-owned, but not fan-run" means, in light of yesterday's update.

We've pulled together a piece that looks at St Mirren's fan-ownership journey.

Simply put, we think it's a good example of what most people expect fan-ownership to involve.

You can have a read here:

https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/fan-owned-but-not-fan-run/

What would also be useful is if our fellow fans could set out what they think is important for fan-ownership. You can do it in this thread, email us at [email protected], or tag us on Twitter using @Jags_Foundation.

We think it's important that your views are listened to in this process, and your thinking shapes our thinking.

Edited by Woodstock Jag
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Sorry  WJ, but it's irrelevant what us fans think what fan ownership should "involve".  The debate is meaningless.

Low is obviously seeking to define Weir's will in a way that allows her to retain control by either allowing 3BCs to retain the shares, or giving them to one of the fan groups she can dominate.

To re-iterate my earlier points, we need:

1 A definitive legal decision (not opinion) on Weir's will, and

2. To unite the three share owning fan groups so that 3BC's cannot divide and rule.

 

Edited by eljaggo
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2 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

In the St Mirren ‘model, ’ four members of SMISA (St Mirren Independent Supporters Association) sit on the St Mirren board of directors (out of six). And, SMISA holds 51% of the club shareholding. Thus, if we followed that model, two/thirds of the directors would come from the vehicle for fan ownership (which could be TJF). And, one of those four could surely conceivably be ‘the Chair’. Surely, in those circumstances there is a significant element of the club being ‘fan run’?

I'd urge you to read the piece carefully. St Mirren's model is "fan-owned, not fan-run".

The St Mirren Independent Supporters' Association does not "run" St Mirren. It appoints directors to the Club Board, as does the second largest shareholder.

The Board of Directors of the Club and its employees run the Club.

What St Mirren fans have is fan representation and fan control.

This is achieved through the right to appoint directors and a legal agreement governing major club decisions.

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9 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

We've pulled together a piece that looks at St Mirren's fan-ownership journey.

Thanks for this and thanks to SMISA for sharing.

I would expect by now that TJF members and fans alike no longer have pipe dreams about picking the starting XI, identifying transfer targets, etc.  I would expect 3BC to realize this as well.  Question for our TJF leaders - do you think there’s at least THAT much shared understanding between us and 3BC?  Do they understand we don’t intend to make these kinds of decisions?  Or do they think we are, like, angry villagers with pitchforks coming to tear this apart?

Reading through it, I think St. Mirren’s version of “fan-owned but not fan-run” seems a reasonable model for Thistle.  Maybe a few changes, such as number of appointees and such, should be tweaked for our specific situation but I like the framework.  I thought the “catering to OF traveling support” (my words, not yours) bit was a very relevant example of the kind of collaboration that would be good for our version of this model.

I’d be interested in learning more about how they “phased in” this model - certainly it wasn’t a flip of a switch with an immediate, total, director regime change.

Thanks again for all your efforts.  Appreciate the communication.

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