Garscube Road End 2 Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 1 hour ago, sandy said: For those of us of a certain vintage like @Garscube Road End 2, we can remember the lyrics to Hotel California by the Eagles. "You can check-out any time you like""But you can never leave!" I can’t join without a Season Ticket so I can say what the f**k I like; the PTFC Trust cannot represent me. One of my all time favourite songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 7 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: UPDATE ON MEMBERSHIP We now have more than 650 members. Thank you to everyone who has supported us to date and to our new members. It is so heartening to see Thistle fans back us and our approach. Today we have launched a new introductory discounted rate of membership. For the first year, people can join for £1 per month. This is intended to make sure that the cost-of-living crisis does not prevent Jags fans from getting involved and having their say. Read more here: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/join-the-jags-foundation-today-for-1-per-month/ To members: please keep your subscriptions going. Our collective power to fundraise already has pledges of over £70kpa. If we can grow that to a six figure sum, it will be harder and harder for 3BC to ignore what the fans want. To those who haven't joined yet: please get on board. We are the largest ever Thistle-membership-based group. We are the vibrant and engaged group actually engaging with fans. But we need your help. The sign-up form has been updated to reflect the new rate: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/sign-up/ I will be persuading my kids (both over 16) and better half to take advantage of this in coming days and hopefully boost the membership up by another 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 Was it ever stated whether Colin Weir left any kind of ring-fenced “emergency fund” to cover any club money shortfalls? And if Low was ousted or simply no longer involved, whether would we no longer have that available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1876 Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 We used to have the 800 club back in the day organised by George Carson and Rosie They organised the junior jags . Kids birthday parties etc mascots poty nights quiz nights And many more events but membership was always around 800 can't remember if it was £ 1 a week or monthly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted August 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 19 minutes ago, 1876 said: We used to have the 800 club back in the day organised by George Carson and Rosie They organised the junior jags . Kids birthday parties etc mascots poty nights quiz nights And many more events but membership was always around 800 can't remember if it was £ 1 a week or monthly 800 club was the predecessor to what is now The Centenary fund Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander livingstone Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Norgethistle said: 800 club was the predecessor to what is now The Centenary fund And we were never told why the club stopped it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 32 minutes ago, ChiThistle said: Was it ever stated whether Colin Weir left any kind of ring-fenced “emergency fund” to cover any club money shortfalls? And if Low was ousted or simply no longer involved, whether would we no longer have that available? This is, of course, the sort of thing we could have ascertained with a very basic due diligence exercise, which Jacqui Low and Peter Shand denied us. I wonder if they denied the other interested party access to this information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elevenone Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Woodstock Jag said: This is, of course, the sort of thing we could have ascertained with a very basic due diligence exercise, which Jacqui Low and Peter Shand denied us. I wonder if they denied the other interested party access to this information? By the sounds of it (or lack of) they are still hastily trying to piece together another interested party. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlgarveJag Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 Would it be too cynical to suggest that the other party is already privy to this information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted August 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, AlgarveJag said: Would it be too cynical to suggest that the other party is already privy to this information? I would hope both parties were shown the same information, unless other party already had access to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted August 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 3 hours ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said: Yes, I saw the £1 offer being launched and I think that’s a decent thing to do for those genuinely struggling with finances in these difficult times. Well done for doing this which should allow some new, supportive people to join up. That includes some in the c) group I mentioned above but not all. And, it doesn’t cover any of a) and b). I am talking about making contact with people who are ‘not on board’ with the whole concept of Fan Ownership, perhaps because they are wary of such a change or just opposed to it. Then there are those who will follow the PTFC board’s lead, because they see this as being the option, with less risk. How do we reach out, make contact, answer their questions, give reassurances, deploy persuasion with these people? Some will be ‘unreachable’ because they don’t want to be involved for whatever reasons and have already made up their minds. You can never get everybody. But, at least trying might yield some results. By trying to be fully transparent with what we’ve done, shown our vision and engaged with fans at events, matches, supporters buses and on line all we can do is ask them to give it consideration. We are seeing an incredible uptake on membership both since we came on board and in last 36 hours. For this we are thankful and humbled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 Update We now have more than 700 members. I've been to Thistle games with a lower turnout than that. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted August 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 9 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: Update We now have more than 700 members. I've been to Thistle games with a lower turnout than that. I saw Thistle play at Hampden with less fans than that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 As a matter of interest could someone post the articles of association of the Trust, and possibly indicate when the AGM is scheduled for. Perhaps too, an indication of how an EGM can be organised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 Further to my post above, I have emailed the club asking for a copy of the PTFC Trust's articles of association. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stolenscone Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 19 minutes ago, eljaggo said: Further to my post above, I have emailed the club asking for a copy of the PTFC Trust's articles of association. The beneficiaries of the PTFC Trust comprise every current season ticket holder who has also been a season ticket holder for each of the last two years. The trustees of the Trust should provide any beneficiary who asks with a full copy of the Trust Deed and any variations to it. (The docs may be publicly registered in any event.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, eljaggo said: As a matter of interest could someone post the articles of association of the Trust, and possibly indicate when the AGM is scheduled for. Perhaps too, an indication of how an EGM can be organised. The PTFC Trust does not have Articles of Association (you have those for a Company). The PTFC Trust is literally a Trust. Which means it is a body that exists by virtue of a trust deed. That is the legal document. There is no requirement (unless it specifies) for a trust to have an AGM or an EGM. It simply isn't that kind of organisation. It doesn't have members or shareholders; just trustees (as appointed under the trust deed from time to time) and beneficiaries (as defined by the trust deed). You can find the original Trust deed here: https://ptfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Trust-Deed.pdf - it was agreed to in 2015 when the PTFC Trust was first created. However, that Trust deed has been varied several times. May 2016: https://ptfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Deed-of-Variation-of-Trust-Deed.pdf November 2018: https://ptfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Deed-of-Variation-of-Trust-Deed.pdf September 2019: https://ptfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Deed-of-Variation.pdf December 2019: https://ptfc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Deed-of-Assumption-and-Conveyance-relating-to-the-Partick-Thistle-Football-Club-Trust.pdf I'm not sure that these are prominently displayed anywhere on the Club website. However, these are all files that have been uploaded to it at some point and can be found by knowing what to google (specifically "PTFC Trust deed" and the top 5 results). ETA: and to be clear at the time of writing all of these URLs work. Edited August 10, 2022 by Woodstock Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Norgethistle said: I saw Thistle play at Hampden with less fans than that Forres Mechanics struggle to attract half that number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 Many thanks WSJ. From what you say, it seems a pretty impregnable organisation, but not one that comes remotely close to meeting the criteria set out most recently by 3BC for a preferred share recipient. It does however seem to fit the bill in other respects. As I mentioned earlier, the recipient criteria set out by 3BC were termed in the future tense, and so grasping at straws, perhaps if the Trust was chosen, some modification to its Deed may legally be required, and that might prove an achillies heel in terms of allowing fans a genuine and meaningful say in the Club's affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, stolenscone said: The beneficiaries of the PTFC Trust comprise every current season ticket holder who has also been a season ticket holder for each of the last two years. The trustees of the Trust should provide any beneficiary who asks with a full copy of the Trust Deed and any variations to it. (The docs may be publicly registered in any event.) Well that ain’t me, despite having given the Club an average of £750 each year in player sponsorship over the last 3 seasons. That’s well in excess of the cost of an ST. And more than enough to make it unnecessary to steal your scone. It’s all a bit of a shit fest (as we say on the west coast). Edited August 10, 2022 by sandy who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, eljaggo said: Many thanks WSJ. From what you say, it seems a pretty impregnable organisation, but not one that comes remotely close to meeting the criteria set out most recently by 3BC for a preferred share recipient. It does however seem to fit the bill in other respects. As I mentioned earlier, the recipient criteria set out by 3BC were termed in the future tense, and so grasping at straws, perhaps if the Trust was chosen, some modification to its Deed may legally be required, and that might prove an achillies heel in terms of allowing fans a genuine and meaningful say in the Club's affairs. I am not a trust law expert. The extent of my claim to knowledge about them is a second year LL.B. university course more than a decade ago. There are people in our support who deal with these things more often than me in the bread and water of their professional lives. But I get the basics. Of course, the PTFC Trust plausibly might change its rules and composition. As the documents I linked to show, it has done so before. For example, it has: abolished the Federation, a body that was originally intended to oversee the Supporters Trustee elections changed the rules about the beneficiaries (to reduce the ST requirement from the previous 3 seasons to the previous 2) changed the rules about the terms of office of the Directors (both Supporters Trustees and Director Trustees) changed the rules about how many Supporter Trustees are to be appointed changed the rules to remove the need for a timely set of Supporters Trustee elections changed the rules to treat co-opted members as though they had been elected It strikes me that its track record of governance is of an organisation that changes its rules to fit the current circumstances, rather than one that works within the rules that it sets itself. That should give pause for thought when anyone is thinking about how its rules would operate in the future, even if changed. As we explained in our 22-page document, normalising governance is extremely important. It's why we got proper professional advice when preparing our own draft Articles of Association. It's why we shared the draft with 3BC for comment on its particulars. But we know that people involved with 3BC now were involved with dealing with governance matters to do with the PTFC Trust at various points. How do we know this? Jacqui Low used to be a Director Trustee, and, if you look at the front page of the December 2019 Deed of Assumption, Murray Beith Murray (Peter Shand's firm) was clearly involved in the drafting of post Weir buy-out changes to the PTFC Trust's governance arrangements. So if something radically different is anticipated, I think two reasonable questions might be asked: (a) Why didn't 3BC just identify the PTFC Trust as the desired vehicle at the outset, or at any point in 2020, 2021 or even early 2022? (b) How (hypothetically) could the PTFC Trust know what changes needed to be made to its governance structure unless 3BC told them what those were? Bearing in mind that 3BC raised pretty much only one issue with The Jags Foundation's proposed Articles of Association, which we document very fully in our 22-page document. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiThistle Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 I think we will be surprised that the mystery winning group is not a previously known or established entity…… …….….…and they only understand Gaelic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljaggo Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 Very interesting WSJ, and pretty depressing since it highlights the machinations that Low uses to retain control. From what you say there is little even a well organised group of seaon ticket holders who meet the Trust's membership criteria can do to even call the Trust to account far less change its behaviour. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, and the Trust will not figure in Low's plans, but it looks to me that the Trust has been carefully tailored over time to provide a destination for the Weir shares, while at the same time allowing Low to retain control of the Board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted August 10, 2022 Report Share Posted August 10, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, ChiThistle said: I think we will be surprised that the mystery winning group is not a previously known or established entity…… …….….…and they only understand Gaelic. Really? Crikey I never knew Ness Footbsll Club from Lewis had such aspirations. I better give Domnhall a call. Edited August 10, 2022 by sandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stolenscone Posted August 11, 2022 Report Share Posted August 11, 2022 (edited) I've had a look at the Trust constitutional documents in the links posted by WJ. I think it's important that people understand the basic function of the Trust. It's not, and doesn't pretend to be, any kind of vehicle for supporter representation. It's a vehicle that holds shares on Trust for a section of the support. There are a minimum of 6 trustees. The Trust Deed allows the shares to be sold or transferred to an unconnected 3rd party. The only criteria is that doing so is in the best interests of the football club, and that it promotes the club's financial security. But only those 6 trustees make that decision. There is no requirement to consult with the supporters. 3 of the trustees are nominated directly by the club. The other 3 are subject to periodic election by that section of the support. Query whether that structure allows proper independence from the club board. Those elections are supposed to be annual. The Trust was formed in 2015 - initially it called for 3yearly elections, but that was later changed to an annual requirement. So far as I am aware, only one election has ever taken place. Edited August 11, 2022 by stolenscone 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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