The Jags Foundation

[sandy]

The bit about Hereford is slightly incorrect. It wasn’t Hereford FC who dropped down the leagues, it was Hereford United. 

The Hereford FC name only came into use when the Club was resurrected by the fans.

[Woodstock Jag]

EGM Report and Recording

Here's the Report and Recordings from the EGM on Thursday: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/egm-report-and-recording/

Opening Remarks and vote on Articles of Association

The Articles of Association were adopted unanimously by the meeting. This is an important step forward as we now have robust rules that properly suit our future needs.

Fan Ownership Panel

We were delighted to be joined by Louise Strutt (current director of the Foundation of Hearts) and David Nicol and Colin Orr, both of whom used to be directors of the St Mirren Independent Supporters' Association. David also used to be a Club Board member at St Mirren, representing SMISA in the board-room.

Their reflections, advice and experience was extremely valuable and we hope our members and the wider support can learn a lot from Louise, David and Colin about "what good fan ownership looks like".

TJF Board Q&A

Arguably the most important part of the evening was your opportunity, as members, to put questions to us, your board. We relish the opportunity to hear what our members think and to set out some of our ideas for the coming weeks and months. It's clear from the exchanges we had on Thursday that our members have lots of ideas about what we can do going forward, and we hope to engage you in key decisions as this situation unfolds.

Working together

One of the common themes of our members survey was that many of you want us to try to find ways to work constructively with other fan groups. We hear this loud and clear.

Although it has proved very difficult to get the PTFC Trust trustees even properly to acknowledge correspondence, let alone reply to it substantively, we have found The Jags Trust to be more willing to enter into dialogue.

In many ways, The Jags Foundation and The Jags Trust have shared values in that we both want to see a properly fan-owned Partick Thistle, with robust governance, genuine fan engagement, and democratic accountability.

As an expression of solidarity, and a statement of intent to find productive areas of common cause, the Chairs of both The Jags Foundation and The Jags Trust joined each other's respective organisations as members. Below is Sandy presenting Morag McHaffie with her McParland Pin at our EGM. We hope to find ways of working together to better serve the membership of both organisations.

[Lenziejag]

What makes up the membership if the Jags Trust ? Does it take the total number of members in favour of fan ownership to a majority of the Thistle fans ?

Edited September 5, 2022 by Lenziejag

[lady-isobel-barnett]

After last Thursday night I have to say I'm even more confident that we'll get things right. Would help and would certainly expedite matters if more folk committed to TJF.

I've full respect for those who don't get involved in petty politics and we're kidding ourselves if we think who owns Thistle isn't a minor concern within today's bigger picture. I just wish that those non TJF members who appreciate the inadequacies and non democratic approach that the Club is making towards fan ownership make their feelings known. You can decry the Club's attitude towards its fanbase and still sit on the fence. To not do so effectively endorses what to anyone of sane mind is pure piss taking

[Woodstock Jag]

Denis, you wouldn't be happy with anything short of us re-enacting the October Revolution. Gie's peace.

[Woodstock Jag]

3 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

That’s an unbecoming comment and not worthy or fair. I have a right as a member of TJF to voice my opinions or are you now seeking to quash any questions or dissent within your own membership?  This comment wasn’t even addressed to you. Do you think you’re beyond criticism? You put yourself forward for leadership and therefore you should expect to be accountable. I have never addressed any insulting comments at you, but you seem to think you can do this with me. You will not silence me.

I'm not "quashing" or "silencing" anything. Your long, repetitive, and relentlessly negative, posts are just getting a little tiresome, that's all.

And I say that advisedly as a perennial writer of long, repetitive and often relentlessly negative posts.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Woodstock Jag

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Could you explain why you are confident that ‘TJF’ will get things right.

Firstly they've got nothing wrong to date. Secondly my confidence in TJF was further underlined after attending last week's EGM.

[Woodstock Jag]

No one is stopping anyone from expressing a view, Denis. You express yours exhaustively, and exhaustingly.

I think the fundamental problem here is you seem to expect TJF to set out our intentions and strategy, in excruciating detail and with reference a range of hypotheticals, none of which have yet played out.

Such an expectation is both unrealistic and would make any such plan less likely to be effective.

This is a public forum. You don't show all your cards before you are ready to play them. As I have repeatedly pointed out to you, there are members of the current Football Club Board of directors who read this forum.

TJF is a broad church movement. We will not be making any knee jerk decisions and fully intend to bring the median Thistle supporter along with us.

With the best will in the world, those calling for changes in the Board Room, or for TJF-led protests at games, are nowhere near the median Thistle supporter. You start where your people are.

Plenty of us have been critical of the record of the current Thistle custodians, but we are also realistic. Any move to fan ownership will not involve wholesale changes to the Club Board. It will involve prolonged transition. Wholesale and overnight change simply is not on the table. No one can put it there. So your calls are pointless and a distraction from the more important strategic goal of delivering a fan ownership model that the fans have some appreciable degree of influence over.

The reason TJF was set up was indeed originally to receive the shares. But we have never hidden the fact that it is not the sole purpose of the organisation, and we fully intend to provide the members with a viable option for us to continue as a members organisation even if we do not end up getting those shares.

If you want a receptacle for shares that does Sweet Francis Adams else, we could save ourselves a lot of time and throw our lot in with the PTFC Trust. It's the living embodiment of something's purpose being to hold shares without properly addressing the wider point of holding those shares.

There are many different potential paths to delivering proper fan ownership. We still think we're the most credible vehicle. But if another vehicle "gets the gig" that's not the end of the story. There is still an urgent and pressing need to mobilise the Thistle support to improve the deeply inadequate model PTFC Trust is presenting. Plan A might then have failed, but that doesn't mean that there is not a need for a Plan B or C.

That requires a broad church. That requires patience. That requires flexibility. That requires being more than a protest movement.

[JAGSMAN1968]

Succinctly put.

[Hopeless Unbeliever]

Hi @admin , is there a block function on this forum? Thanks.

[stolenscone]

Menu, Account,  Ignored Users.  You can add a new ignoree there.

I might try it myself.

Woody - disengage before it's too late!

[JAGSMAN1968]

Sounds like a plan!

[Norgethistle]

2 hours ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

There you go again, in the first line, you just can’t resist the negative, unpleasant comment. As they say, when you haven’t got an argument, or are not sure what yours is, rubbish the person opining the one you don’t like. 

 Thus, you’re still not prepared to reveal your ‘plan’ not even to your own members. Sounds to me like you’re attempting to straddle many horses in your ‘broad church’. Broad churches can be okay, but sometimes when they attempt to encompass every strand of opinion, they end up….satisfying no one. Eg political parties! (I said you sounded like a politician-Tory perhaps? Well you accused me of being a Communist…’what’s sauce for the goose!’)

And, I am sorry, I still sense you’re frightened, perhaps of offending someone!  Is it certain other members? The board at PTFC? The Chair? 3BCs? The Thistle Trust? Or, perhaps a combination or all four! You’ve been giving these reasons for not revealing what TJF intends to do for some time. Your ‘flexibility’ is beginning to look like capitulation. How long should we be “patient”? How long do you think before these reasons don’t apply? Or is that a closely guarded secret too?

But, perhaps you’ve revealed yourself in that sentence ..”continue as a members organisation even if we do not end up getting those shares.” Ie the white flag. Perhaps that’s why you emphasise pin badge offerings most these days. When people, organisations, politicians realise they can’t meet the target, they have the habit of wanting that target made easier, ie lowering it.  Now you’re suggesting the target will be met if TJF become a mass membership fans group, without gaining  the shares. Perhaps you should have said that BEFORE you were elected, to leadership.

 

Dennis, first and foremost we are Thistle supporters, the club and its success and survival comes above everything else, so personally I would not advocate anything that puts either of them in jeopardy. 
What can fans do? There are some simple things that can be done.

1- Contact PTFC Trust by mail, or in person (or both) to inform them you do not support their method, their set up and ask them to step away or engage with the Foundation, which had nearly 850 active members.

2- Join the foundation and grow that number, strength in numbers will be key. If you are already a member encourage your fellow fans to also join.

3- If you have ideas or strategies that you believe the Jags Foundation can use to strengthen our hand then mail us, we are always open to ideas, engagement and feedback.

 

As a members organization we have strength in numbers, the same as a union, and negotiations, persuasions, engagement and unity (as with unions) works 99% of the time before last ditch “action” is needed.  We are not near there. 

This is a movement that is growing, people feel part of it, people feel involved, they care. That ultimately will be what pushes this through. 
We have hidden nothing from our members or support at large, we’ve communicated at every stage, we have ran events to pull fans together, we’ve developed collectible pins so folk can have a little excitement and hold something. This will become bigger than just shares, this is about getting the majority (a big majority hopefully) becoming a collective for more than just 90 minutes a week. 

[Lenziejag]

7 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Dennis, first and foremost we are Thistle supporters, the club and its success and survival comes above everything else, so personally I would not advocate anything that puts either of them in jeopardy. 
What can fans do? There are some simple things that can be done.

1- Contact PTFC Trust by mail, or in person (or both) to inform them you do not support their method, their set up and ask them to step away or engage with the Foundation, which had nearly 850 active members.

2- Join the foundation and grow that number, strength in numbers will be key. If you are already a member encourage your fellow fans to also join.

3- If you have ideas or strategies that you believe the Jags Foundation can use to strengthen our hand then mail us, we are always open to ideas, engagement and feedback.

 

As a members organization we have strength in numbers, the same as a union, and negotiations, persuasions, engagement and unity (as with unions) works 99% of the time before last ditch “action” is needed.  We are not near there. 

This is a movement that is growing, people feel part of it, people feel involved, they care. That ultimately will be what pushes this through. 
We have hidden nothing from our members or support at large, we’ve communicated at every stage, we have ran events to pull fans together, we’ve developed collectible pins so folk can have a little excitement and hold something. This will become bigger than just shares, this is about getting the majority (a big majority hopefully) becoming a collective for more than just 90 minutes a week. 

The main purpose was to get the shares - all the rest is puff. Concentrate on getting the shares.

There should be no other focus.

[Norgethistle]

35 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

The main purpose was to get the shares - all the rest is puff. Concentrate on getting the shares.

There should be no other focus.

Of course the ownership of the club is top priority, but to get there we need to build a movement that supports and encourages those shares to go to the Foundation

[Norgethistle]

24 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

Firstly, can I say, your tone and words are a good deal more friendly, reasonable and conciliatory than that of WJ to a fellow member of TJF. And, if you scroll back, it is a matter of factual record that he hit out at me, as I was asking a question of another member on this site. I did not attack him. I defended myself, as I would always do. If people are friendly to me, I will always reciprocate, even if I don’t agree with them. That too is a matter of factual record on this site.

Secondly, I have been completely consistent in my views expressed openly on this site, since I have been writing about fan ownership. I have nothing to hide, no hidden agenda. I believe the current tactics by TJF (since 3BCs and PTFC board *announced the shares would go to the Thistle Trust) to be mistaken and I also believe the present Thistle chair/board’s board’s position to be untenable. 

I have also suspected, now confirmed by WJ that TJF are ultimately prepared to simply accept that *decision and will be content to carry on as a mass membership group. I consider if TJF doesn’t ultimately get those shares, they will have failed and therefore they have no justification for asking members to pay subscriptions each month and continue as they are in their present format. Those subscriptions were intended to be part of the arrangement whereby TJF would be the vehicle for holding majority shareholding of PTFC shares, as is seen at other clubs which are genuinely fan owned. If TJF does not become that, it is a very different group.

And, yes, TJF have been a very open organisation in the various ways you outline  except one. And, that is letting their membership know what they plan to do, if and when and what is now likely, the shareholding goes to a group, the type of which, the Thistle Trust has been revealed to be. I don’t trust the present Chair, the present PTFC board or the Thistle Trust. TJF has said they would be happy to work with them. WJ eschews any kind of protest against all these people. He is happy to accept the continuation of the present board/Chair.  I disagree with those positions  and therein lies the basic difference between me and him, and you and perhaps the whole present  TJF leadership.

I never voted for the present leadership, as I wasn’t a member of TJF at that point. Therefore I am not betraying anything.  But, if I had been I would have asked all candidates the question “What will you do if you don’t get the shares-they’re given to another group.” Doubtless the answer would have come back. That’s being negative, we WILL get those shares. WJ always said, “We’ll get this over the line.” But, he didn’t. TJF didn’t. Now, it’s a different ball game. And, I think TJF are still playing the ball game they thought they were playing BEFORE  the decision was made by 3BCs to place the shares elsewhere and deny fan ownership, plus the way they went around doing it. 

Things have moved on and changed, and the original strategy has failed. A new one is needed, but I get no sense the  TJF are prepared to change their approach. I also think that to close off the idea of protesting at the way the present PTFC have behaved and supporters have been treated by them makes no sense at all, on any level. WJ strikes me as someone to which, the concept of protest is anathema. I can’t accept that and in other situations of unfairness, I don’t. On that too, I believe him and TJF to be wrong.
 

 

Dennis, I can assure you the Foundation and it’s members are not just willing to back away from this and accept the current “preference”, that’s clear by the surge in membership and the poll from our members.

There are many cogs turning at the moment, and there are many ideas and plays being worked, but as I mentioned previously if you have an idea or a strategy then contact us by email. 

 

[Yellow & Redneck]

10 hours ago, stolenscone said:

Menu, Account,  Ignored Users.  You can add a new ignoree there.

I might try it myself.

Woody - disengage before it's too late!

You're a life saver! 

[Norgethistle]

46 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

To norgethistle

WJ made the comment I attributed to him, regarding TJF, in the event of them not getting the shares. He said that. It is a matter of record on this site, for anyone who cares to scroll back. Perhaps you disagree with him on that, I don’t know. Perhaps he now wishes he hadn’t said it!

He never stated that

[sandy]

1 hour ago, Norgethistle said:

Dennis, I can assure you the Foundation and it’s members are not just willing to back away from this and accept the current “preference”, that’s clear by the surge in membership and the poll from our members.

There are many cogs turning at the moment, and there are many ideas and plays being worked, but as I mentioned previously if you have an idea or a strategy then contact us by email. 

 

I’d support this, as one who has called for action. To be fair to TJF Denis, they did say they would be discussing next steps at their next Board meeting. 

I am happy to wait for the cogs to turn.

[Lenziejag]

2 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Of course the ownership of the club is top priority, but to get there we need to build a movement that supports and encourages those shares to go to the Foundation

I don’t say top priority. Only priority. However, I am not a member of TJF and if the members are calling the shots, then you have no other option as a democratic organisation.

[Woodstock Jag]

There is a very important difference between (a) acknowledging the possibility that the share transfer might go ahead, and planning accordingly, and (b) accepting or tolerating that possibility, should it materialise, without consequence.

It is abundantly clear that the TJF position is (a) and not (b) and anyone implying otherwise is wrong.

Ultimately there are only four entities, legally, that can prevent the transfer of the shares:

(a) Three Black Cats (as the donor)

(b) PTFC Trust (as the designated recipient)

(c) the Club Board (having a veto over any transfer under the Articles)

(d) the Scottish Football Association (their Articles requiring member clubs to secure approval for material changes of ownership)

The eagle-eyed among you will notice that none of these four entities are The Jags Foundation.

Clearly we will do what is within our power to persuade any one of the above four not to proceed.

That includes our efforts to secure transparency about how the deal came about.

It includes our efforts to have clarified what the deal actually is.

It includes, as we alluded to in our survey, calling for a clear role for the fans to have an informed say over the transfer.

It includes our efforts to engage with fans, including non-members, to explain to them why this isn’t fan ownership and why they should oppose it.

It includes building a credible alternative vehicle, which raises significant funding and makes it more difficult for the Club Board to ignore. Those who disparage the Pins fail to realise that fundraising capacity is precisely what gives us leverage further down the line.

But it wouldn’t be prudent or realistic or credible not to acknowledge that the transfer might go ahead regardless of anything that we do. We should be ready to respond to that situation, especially if it is the most likely outcome. And we shouldn’t do things before that transfer that would weaken our position after it to influence whatever is imposed on us.

That is why the organisation needs credibility independently of what happens on the share transfer.

Our members recognise this, which is why as you’ll see many of them were asking us questions about what we should do if the deeply suboptimal proposal comes to pass.

[stolenscone]

15 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I don’t say top priority. Only priority. However, I am not a member of TJF and if the members are calling the shots, then you have no other option as a democratic organisation.

Hi LJ - ultimately, the decision on where the shares are to be transferred is a matter for Mr Weir's executors and the directors of the company that currently holds them - Three Black Cats. There is nothing that TJF can do about that, except:

1. to shine a light on what is happening to allow supporters to make up their own mind; and/or

2. to act as a rallying point for direct action against the Club board, in the hope that this persuades the director who shares responsibility across both the Club and TBC boards to reconsider their decision. 

It's fairly clear that TJF have done the former. If they choose to try the latter then it's also fairly clear that would be divisive across the support, as it will inevitably harm the Club in the short to medium term. 

It sounds to me that TJF are trying to build a credible, active and engaged fan movement for the long term. I can see that manning the barricades now is likely to alienate a significant portion of the support, so is also likely to preclude that aim.

This may end up being a longer journey than anyone anticipated.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

13 hours ago, stolenscone said:

Menu, Account,  Ignored Users.  You can add a new ignoree there.

I might try it myself.

Woody - disengage before it's too late!

Post Of The Year. 

Thank You. Thank You. Thank You.

[sandy]

4 hours ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

I don’t want to blacken your name Sandy. Guilty by association and all that. But, yes, you make a good point. There was more than a definite implication ‘next steps’ would be discussed at that meeting, but as far as I know, that didn’t materialise. Leaderships of groups should always be accountable to their membership. It is a privilege to lead any group of people. And mutual respect is mandatory. What I got from WJ yesterday, fell well short of that. I am not the ‘enemy’ but I know a few people who are. Why isn’t the ‘fire’ trained on them? Why are we almost frightened to do anything, of which they may disapprove? I’d love to know!

Denis, the EGM was only last week. We need to give TJF Board time to meet and discuss strategies. 

[Lenziejag]

3 hours ago, stolenscone said:

Hi LJ - ultimately, the decision on where the shares are to be transferred is a matter for Mr Weir's executors and the directors of the company that currently holds them - Three Black Cats. There is nothing that TJF can do about that, except:

1. to shine a light on what is happening to allow supporters to make up their own mind; and/or

2. to act as a rallying point for direct action against the Club board, in the hope that this persuades the director who shares responsibility across both the Club and TBC boards to reconsider their decision. 

It's fairly clear that TJF have done the former. If they choose to try the latter then it's also fairly clear that would be divisive across the support, as it will inevitably harm the Club in the short to medium term. 

It sounds to me that TJF are trying to build a credible, active and engaged fan movement for the long term. I can see that manning the barricades now is likely to alienate a significant portion of the support, so is also likely to preclude that aim.

This may end up being a longer journey than anyone anticipated.

Wills can be challenged can’t they ? It seems to me that TJF could challenge the destination of the shares on the grounds that it isn’t the type of fan ownership that Colin Weir wanted ? Perhaps, though, TJF have already taken advice on this and ruled it out.