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11 minutes ago, Mr Scruff said:

These are very valid and cogent points.

Both are entirely explainable by the fact that the only reason this setup exists is to underpin the current structure - nothing else. 

It certainly looks that way. And perception is important if you want to try to build the trust, engagement and co-operation of others.

Regardless of whether the perception reflects the reality (only the Trust and club board can know that for certain), I think it's an unhelpful (my predictive text thinks I should say "unhealthy") way to approach things.

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2 hours ago, javeajag said:

The bit where the ask TJF for fundraising support is the bit that got me …. Financial support is dependent on democratic control and accountability …. No full elections , no cash.

A bit like being mugged...    The clear impression is they either pretend to want engagement or realise it's impossible to be JL's lapdog and work in true partnership with the TJF, and subsequently they hope folk will lose interest and go away (but keep feeding them with cash if it's available).   Their track record so far is totally unconvincing and personally I have zero faith in them. They know where their loyalty lies and it's not with the fans. 

I can't help thinking that if results on the park don't improve very quickly then that would be the catalyst for the support to show their discontent to JL/board, encompassing both fan ownership and on field discontent. But if results turn around then she's safe unfortunately, and short of fans boycotting games (not proposing that), I fail to see what can be done. 

Edited by JAG1970
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2 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Have read report re meeting with The PTFC Trust. Whilst it could be construed that the Trust have made concessions they are in my mind kinda meaningless with the second red line (majority of trustees  be democratically elected by May 2023) being rejected. I'd give the notion that in refusal the Trust are adopting a delay and you'll go away approach. 

I sincerely wish TJF to continue and hope that the already impressive membership numbers increase.  We are far more than just a pressure group. The TJF are democratically elected and represent a huge chunk of OUR Club's adult fanbase.

The PTFC Trust remind me of parents who won't allow their kids to play with their birthday presents from their uncle till they're older. Secretly hoping that come the day the kids will have lost all interest in their presents. I've great faith that TJF will not allow proper fan ownership to be swept aside in such a manner.

LLB, I've edited your post to replace Jags Trust with PTFC Trust. 

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2 hours ago, partickthedog said:

Agreeing with all that you say. With apologies for being pedantic, your comments should be addressed against the PTFC Trust rather than the Jags Trust.

 

9 minutes ago, admin said:

LLB, I've edited your post to replace Jags Trust with PTFC Trust. 

Thanks admin and partickthedog. Fully aware of the different trusts, yet I still made that bloomer! Apologies to the Jags Trust. 

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I totally agree with both stolenscone's points, especially the first. What we are talking about here is the organisation which represents the fans' interests (or should do) and not about the running of the club. TJF have not asked for a place on the club board or an automatic veto of the choice of next manager or even to be allowed to pick the half-time draw. It makes the whole fiasco even more galling when a self-appointed group aim to deny the people they claim to represent any democratic say in the organisation.

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Doesn't look like the trust or the board are taking TJF seriously and probably won't unless there is a consequence

As the Trust membership is made of season ticket holders would it be an idea to ask all TJF members to not buy a season ticket next season and instead move to pay at the gate? Would that expose the lie that the Trust represent the fans? 

Disruption to the season ticket money would very probably grab the attention of the board as well.

 

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12 minutes ago, laukat said:

Doesn't look like the trust or the board are taking TJF seriously and probably won't unless there is a consequence

As the Trust membership is made of season ticket holders would it be an idea to ask all TJF members to not buy a season ticket next season and instead move to pay at the gate? Would that expose the lie that the Trust represent the fans? 

Disruption to the season ticket money would very probably grab the attention of the board as well.

 

I'm coming round to thinking that this may be the only way fans can make their feelings on the ownership situation known to the board.

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18 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

If there are no season ticket holders (other than trust board and PTFC board) would that not make them the sole beneficiaries of any sale of the club. Perhaps this is what they were after all along

Don't think they will get many buyers for a club with no season ticket holders

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11 hours ago, fifexile said:

Maybe selling the land not the football club is the end game

Don't think so. The value of the land isn't huge and previous planning permissions have been rejected.

Agree the most likely motive for this level of disregard for the paying customer must be financial. I think its worth looking at what's happening at Ibrox to find out how they could do that without selling the club, the land and not getting too much negative publicity.

Sevco have been overspending since birth in 2012. Normally that would mean asking the bank for an overdraft however that's not been possible at Ibrox. So instead Directors are providing loans to keep Sevco afloat and in turn they get shares or they charge the club higher that normal levels of interest. Some of the loans are also secured against the property surrounding Ibrox.

We know from the accounts that we will shortly need an overdraft or loans to keep pace with expenditure so you could argue we are on the Sevco pathway.

Loaning a club money at higher interest rates could well be one way of making money however I don't think shares and property are likely at a club with a relatively small amount of land. I suspect the way to extract value beyond the interest on the loans will be to secure a cut of player sales or to influence who the club signs to get cuts of the signing on fees etc. 

I think the effects of Brexit have changed the football transfer market and I think some clubs like Queens Park and Livingston have been quicker to recognise that player trading within the UK is likely to see inflated fee's as it becomes a bit of a closed market. Back in the days of the '3 foreigner rule' transfer fees for very ordinary players were huge just because they had the right passport. We could well be going back to that and some people will get rich form it.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, laukat said:

Don't think so. The value of the land isn't huge and previous planning permissions have been rejected.

Agree the most likely motive for this level of disregard for the paying customer must be financial. I think its worth looking at what's happening at Ibrox to find out how they could do that without selling the club, the land and not getting too much negative publicity.

Sevco have been overspending since birth in 2012. Normally that would mean asking the bank for an overdraft however that's not been possible at Ibrox. So instead Directors are providing loans to keep Sevco afloat and in turn they get shares or they charge the club higher that normal levels of interest. Some of the loans are also secured against the property surrounding Ibrox.

We know from the accounts that we will shortly need an overdraft or loans to keep pace with expenditure so you could argue we are on the Sevco pathway.

Loaning a club money at higher interest rates could well be one way of making money however I don't think shares and property are likely at a club with a relatively small amount of land. I suspect the way to extract value beyond the interest on the loans will be to secure a cut of player sales or to influence who the club signs to get cuts of the signing on fees etc. 

I think the effects of Brexit have changed the football transfer market and I think some clubs like Queens Park and Livingston have been quicker to recognise that player trading within the UK is likely to see inflated fee's as it becomes a bit of a closed market. Back in the days of the '3 foreigner rule' transfer fees for very ordinary players were huge just because they had the right passport. We could well be going back to that and some people will get rich form it.

 

 

 

My doomsday scenario is the land is sold and more student accommodation is built leaving Thistle homeless. There is precedent for that type of  development in the surrounding area and there's no doubt there is a huge lack of student accommodation. 

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27 minutes ago, fifexile said:

My doomsday scenario is the land is sold and more student accommodation is built leaving Thistle homeless. There is precedent for that type of  development in the surrounding area and there's no doubt there is a huge lack of student accommodation. 

Highly unlikely scenario.  There's a presumption against approval for more student accommodation in many areas of Glasgow due to an over-supply.

There would be significant challenges in achieving a commercially viable development on that site especially with topographical and hydrological issues as well as flooding and meeting the extensive requirements of the City Development Plan.  It could be done, it's just difficult and that means expensive.  Even if you think a grant funded social housing scheme might work you immediately hit the issue of high cost abnormals noted above.  It would almost certainly not be approved without an undertaking to re-provide the pitch somewhere.

I do believe that these ideas suggest a level of planning and Machiavellian machinations that is outside the abilities or ethos of those involved.  A much simpler explanation for all of this is just the simple one - they are content with the status quo and want to ensure that all the actions preserve only that.  Why that would be the case?  Anyone's guess is as good as mine.  I wouldn't discount the basic one of ego.

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I would think TJF will need to play the long game with the PTFC Trust and try and get members elected to the PTFC trust. 

It may take a while but hopefully there will eventually be enough TJF supporters in place to force change to be more democratic setup or to gift the shares to TJF.

 

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1 hour ago, jaggymct said:

I would think TJF will need to play the long game with the PTFC Trust and try and get members elected to the PTFC trust. 

It may take a while but hopefully there will eventually be enough TJF supporters in place to force change to be more democratic setup or to gift the shares to TJF.

 

Yep; nobody on the TJF board can say this right now but it has to be the plan.

Get elected in sufficient numbers to take over the Trust, gift its shares to TJF, dissolve it.

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3 minutes ago, delurker said:

Yep; nobody on the TJF board can say this right now but it has to be the plan.

Get elected in sufficient numbers to take over the Trust, gift its shares to TJF, dissolve it.

 

1 hour ago, jaggymct said:

I would think TJF will need to play the long game with the PTFC Trust and try and get members elected to the PTFC trust. 

It may take a while but hopefully there will eventually be enough TJF supporters in place to force change to be more democratic setup or to gift the shares to TJF.

 

The problem is that in order for this to work we will need to have democratic elections to the PTFC Trust and there is no sign of that happening anytime soon. 

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Monday 14th November, 2022 at 3:00pm

“We are pleased to announce that the transfer of the majority shareholding, from Three Black Cats to the Partick Thistle Football Club Trust (PTFC Trust), has been formally approved by the Scottish FA.

“We look forward to working with the Trust in earnest as the official representatives of the majority shareholders in Thistle – our fans.”

The Partick Thistle Board

Insightful as always.

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14 minutes ago, elevenone said:

How can the Trust be "official representatives" when they hold no elections? How can the fans be shareholders when the only fan led consortium (TJF) was denied access to the shares?

I honestly think Jlow must spend most of her days thinking up statements that will deliberately annoy people who can both read and think.

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, laukat said:

How can the Trust be "official representatives" when they hold no elections? How can the fans be shareholders when the only fan led consortium (TJF) was denied access to the shares?

I honestly think Jlow must spend most of her days thinking up statements that will deliberately annoy people who can both read and think.

 

 

 

Disgraceful statement as the board know only too well that a large % of the fanbase do not support the PTFC Trust &/or how they were gifted the shares. Hard not to conclude that this is deliberately provocative. Was it approved by the majority shareholder?

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