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Options for action against the board


MarciaBlaine
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53 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

It was you that mentioned the EGM in the 1st place. However, to put forward a case. PTFC is a business. If one of the future actions of TJF is to undermine that business, in my opinion they would be well within their rights to ban them from the premises even before any decisions are taken. 

Sometimes shareholders do act against the decisions a business takes. It may look as it it’s undermining in the short term, but it’s usually for better longer-term outcomes.

As a fan and a member of the TJF, I feel the Club has got the execution of Colin Weirs wishes wrong. So I’d prefer to make my feelings known to influence the Club Board.

Look how quickly they announced then rescinded the TJF ban on Friday night. That was an example of feedback influencing their decision making. 

Oh and I think football clubs are more than just a business. They carry years of history and supporter loyalty that often goes back generations in a family, So they are worth fighting for,

Edited by sandy
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20 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

You’re right, PTFC is a business, privately-owned. But, those at the top of it, don’t like to emphasise that too much when they’re appealing for people to join in with things like eg  ‘The Centenery Fund,’ or hoping people donate money to ‘Go Fund Me’.  (£80, 000 and not one single share exchanged for that financial support.) Would in any other walk of life, people donate to support their favourite private business on the high street that was financially short of money? No, but that’s because football clubs are perceived by their fans as being something ‘different’ from any other private business, in which they don’t have any financial input eg share ownership. They are thought of as special and often put on a pedesta. That ‘special’ relationship is upon relied on when clubs are pushing their eg merchandise, offers, sponsorship etc. but now, the private business nature of PTFC comes to the fore and THAT is finally being understood.

I wasn’t comparing PTFC to a high street business. Things like half time draw, player sponsorship, Centenary fund are all normal parts of football club business, not necessarily special.

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17 minutes ago, sandy said:

Sometimes shareholders do act against the decisions a business takes. It may look as it it’s undermining in the short term, but it’s usually for better longer-term outcomes.

As a fan and a member of the TJF, I feel the Club has got the execution of Colin Weirs wishes wrong. So I’d prefer to make my feelings known to influence the Club Board.

Look how quickly they announced then rescinded the TJF ban on Friday night. That was an example of feedback influencing their decision making. 

Oh and I think football clubs are more than just a business. They carry years of history and supporter loyalty that often goes back generations in a family, So they are worth fighting for,

For what it’s worth, I agree with you that the club has got it wrong re Colin Weirs wishes.

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50 minutes ago, eljaggo said:

I think it is vital that TJF conducts a specific survey of its season ticket holding members as soon as possible.  The survey should establish what they see as important to them and by that to define as exactly as possible where their best interests lie.

If that is not done, then the PTFC Trust can claim that any action they may take can be construed as being in the best interests of season ticket holders.  That could lead to all sorts of issues, especially if a new investor appears on the horizon and offers to buy the Weir shares coupled to promises of new investment.

TJF at the moment is the only organisation who can speak for a large proportion of season ticket holders, and the results of such a survey would give a benchmark against which future discussions can take place.

I think that canvasing opinion is vital, although I'm not sure why it would be just season ticket holders, or are us non-season ticket holders going to be second class citizens in TJF as well ?

Although not my view, sadly I suspect that most supporters won't be that bothered and just happy to get behind the team. I would hope that those in TJF might be more vocal.

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4 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I think that canvasing opinion is vital, although I'm not sure why it would be just season ticket holders, or are us non-season ticket holders going to be second class citizens in TJF as well ?

Although not my view, sadly I suspect that most supporters won't be that bothered and just happy to get behind the team. I would hope that those in TJF might be more vocal.

I'm assuming that the Trust are slow to include non-season ticket holders, and that they are equally slow or even loathe to survey their beneficiariess about where their best interests lie.

If push comes to shove there needs to be a statement based on evidence defining these best interests.

Edited by eljaggo
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Of course, TJF is currently surveying its membership (every single member, not just a subset) to better understand:

(a) what overlaps there are with other fan groups (including the Jags Trust and new or old beneficiaries of the PTFC Trust)

(b) what their views are on the proposal to transfer the 55% shareholding to PTFC Trust

(c) what their preferred destination for the shares would be

(d) whether they are PTFC shareholders, and if so, whether they'd like to cooperate with us in that context

(e) what other views they have about the direction of travel, what are doing and whether we should be doing things differently.

We can do this without having to seek the agreement or say so of the Club, or rely on them inviting members to respond to our survey, because we are a proper independent members organisation, accountable to those who proactively sign-up.

 

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These WSJ, are mostly about the relationships between the various groups and the importance of TJF.  My point is a wider one that is touched on in (e) above, but which I think needs to be given priority and more definition.

I do not understand you last paragraph.

Edited by eljaggo
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53 minutes ago, eljaggo said:

These WSJ, are mostly about the relationships between the various groups and the importance of TJF.  My point is a wider one that is touched on in (e) above, but which I think needs to be given priority and more definition.

I do not understand you last paragraph.

Yes, that's a fair point. We intend to consult of a range of other matters as well. This is very much just the beginning of that scoping exercise.

The point I was making is that PTFC Trust doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) know who its beneficiaries are and their contact details, because it doesn't hold the season ticket database. It would have to rely on the Club contacting their beneficiaries to conduct the sort of exercise we are now carrying out.

We can do this because our members all "opted in" whereas their beneficiaries were essentially just "claimed" without so much as a how-do-you-do.

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18 minutes ago, denismcquadeno.eleven said:

I was comparing them to a private business because they ARE a private business. (Somebody on here actually asked Woodstock Jag once on here, if PTFC could claim tax relief for being a charity!! They obviously didn’t grasp the fact the club is a normal business like many others with normal tax responsibilities! )

But I emphasised the special nature of that business ie they are a football team with a fanbase. And, yes, the things you mention ARE a normal part of what football clubs do these days, but they do provide income for football clubs with little or no cost to the club given in return.

The draws pay for themselves, with prize money provided from what everyone who buys a ticket puts in.

Corporate sponsorship  only means clubs have to display certain advertising around a stadium, on shirts, mentioned by the club on the website or in programmes. It’s paid for out of those organisations’ advertising budget. 

Sponsorship by a fan/ company of a shirt, shorts or socks, boots etc, only means handing over items that have already been used by players throughout the season. A lot of it is not needed and obsolete for the next season. Framing players’ shirts costs money but by no means £400! I’ve paid for a signed shirt to be professionally famed once and it cost nowhere near that.

The surplus value put on it by football clubs is because they know some dedicated fans/ organisations WILL pay these sums.

Tiles cost to be engraved, but I’d be surprised if they cost anywhere near £50 (round figure) but ALL the bigger clubs do this nowadays. Some charge a lot more for tiles placed in crucial places. Eg Leeds Utd make tiles, surrounding Billy Bremner’s statue cost more than others. 

But,  mainly, clubs incur little cost to themselves financially by these ‘offers’ and they’re depending on the goodwill, of the fans in stumping up and continually. The fact many are happy to keep on doing it, depends on the amount of good feelings they have about their club. But if that goodwill begins to dry up or stop because of the way fans perceived they’re seen or treated by that club…well…You can imagine the result. PTFC, whatever they say publicly will be keeping a very close eye on THAT side of ‘business’ , despite the fact they’ve successfully banked all of the season ticket money. And, I think most-regardless of their fan-ownership view-would accept it was no coincidence that the 3BCs/PTFC announcement about where the 50% shareholding was going, came AFTER most of the season tickets for 2022/23 were ordered and paid for!

Please don’t misunderstand me. I think the way that 3BC/PTFC have conducted themselves has been despicable. Personally, I am not that interested in being a fan owner of the club or in any of the other politics that have gone on over the years. I am one of those fans that just wants to go along and watch the games. 
Sometimes when you are passionate about something you miss the impact on people. For example, boycotts won’t affect Low and Co. But it may well affect the other people that work at Firhill when they lose their jobs. Is that the impact you want of your actions?

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I think you mis-understand if you believe that the impulse to stay away from the game is an effort to damage anything, or is a boycott.

The conduct of those associated with the club/ ownership has been deliberately carried out treating us with contempt.  I cannot keep putting money into an organisation that celebrates that. 

And I have put an awful lot of money into Thistle over the years, and encouraged others to do so.  How dare anyone criticise those of us who, with a more heavy heart than they can realise, find ourselves in a position we can no longer do that. Thistle are not due any of our money, although they often act like they are.  Presumably those who treat us as mugs will now be delighted that some fans are, depressingly predictably, having a go at other fans.

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Individuals are entitled to do whatever they want. But you know that’s not what I am talking about. I am talking about an organised call to stay away. That is something completely different. 
And for all we don’t like how 3BC/PTFC have gone about it,it comes down to a difference of opinion as to what is best for PTFC. So in my opinion, an independent observer if you will, it would be the actions of the boycotters depriving PTFC of income.

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24 minutes ago, Mr Scruff said:

I think you mis-understand if you believe that the impulse to stay away from the game is an effort to damage anything, or is a boycott.

The conduct of those associated with the club/ ownership has been deliberately carried out treating us with contempt.  I cannot keep putting money into an organisation that celebrates that. 

And I have put an awful lot of money into Thistle over the years, and encouraged others to do so.  How dare anyone criticise those of us who, with a more heavy heart than they can realise, find ourselves in a position we can no longer do that. Thistle are not due any of our money, although they often act like they are.  Presumably those who treat us as mugs will now be delighted that some fans are, depressingly predictably, having a go at other fans.

I am not having a go at you. But you are having a go at those that don’t feel the same way as you, which at the moment seem to be the majority.

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For the avoidance of doubt I do not support a boycott of the football club, whether with feet or wallet. Such action, as things stand, would play right into the hands of those seeking to discredit TJF and the incredible fan momentum it is building.

How do I know this? Because there are people, and they know who they are, who have tried to claim that I personally, on this forum, was encouraging fans to send correspondence to sponsors that would cause nuisance or distress, when in fact, as you will all see, I did exactly the opposite of that.

Michella Obama had an excellent phrase for it, that I’m sure doesn’t require repeating.

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9 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Individuals are entitled to do whatever they want. But you know that’s not what I am talking about. I am talking about an organised call to stay away. That is something completely different. 
And for all we don’t like how 3BC/PTFC have gone about it,it comes down to a difference of opinion as to what is best for PTFC. So in my opinion, an independent observer if you will, it would be the actions of the boycotters depriving PTFC of income.

Any call I've seen, to stay away from games or stop spending money on Thistle has come from individuals or has been individuals stating they are not putting any more of their money into the club. I don't recal seeing any kind of organised boycott.

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2 hours ago, scotty said:

Any call I've seen, to stay away from games or stop spending money on Thistle has come from individuals or has been individuals stating they are not putting any more of their money into the club. I don't recal seeing any kind of organised boycott.

It has been alluded to by Sandy that it might be on the agenda at the EGM

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33 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

It has been alluded to by Sandy that it might be on the agenda at the EGM

For the avoidance of doubt, the EGM does not have an item marked "Official Protests".

The formal business is the approval of the draft Articles of Association. We suspect that won't be the main point of interest for those in attendance, and we suspect that the AOCB will be rather more wide-ranging.

As advertised, the evening will encompass a Q&A segment, but we are also hoping to provide something of interest with a little more structure to inform discussions and to get a clear feeling for where the membership are on the way forward.

I know someone who was closely involved in the St Mirren Independent Supporters Association, and one of the things he said to me in the last fortnight or so was that they too had dark times in their journey. Some real lows, albeit not as profound as ours. But as he told me "six months later, we were in the room".

Showing that we are the adults, the ones who know what we're talking about, and who have the most credible plan for the future will always be an essential component to delivering the right outcome.

Edited by Woodstock Jag
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Denis, we're clearly not going to agree on this. You seem to want TJF to commit to indiscriminate and futile acts of defiance, which will alienate precisely the sort of people who can move the dial in this dispute.

Ultimately the direction of travel is for the members of the organisation, and we think that they will trust us to make the right call within the broad parameters that they set us through expressing their views and continuing, or not, to pay their monthly subs to us.

But if the approach is to be to play into the hands of those who want to dismiss the largest organic members organisation in Thistle memory as a rabble pursuing personal vendettas, you can count me out.

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Denis I don’t understand why you think it’s even remotely a wise idea for me to list to you the things I would be prepared to back. This suggests you fundamentally don’t understand the dynamics that are currently at play.

The thing that kills this movement is if people are able to portray anything we do as “divisive”, “intimidating” or “attacking the Club” etc. Those lines are their secret weapon with the media, with the not-as-online fans, and with those who want to see a sensible, professional and pragmatic members organisation fit to form a proper part of the governance jigsaw at our club for decades to come.

The people you want TJF to endorse protest against read this forum. They scour it forensically, looking to misquote, contort and misrepresent to others. By the time the truth gets its shoelaces tied, the myth has spread to hundreds of Thistle fans and the message discipline and goodwill is lost.

Those people are probably reading this thread right now. Because they aren’t stupid. And you want me to set out a Schlieffen plan of action points?

If the Foundation membership wants to pursue a path that I cannot in good conscience go along with, I will offer my resignation, TJF will likely seek to co-opt someone else in my place under the new Articles of Association, and the next set of TJF elections would have three three-year vacancies and a vacancy for a two-year term.

Which is exactly as it should be in a well governed members organisation.

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3 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

It has been alluded to by Sandy that it might be on the agenda at the EGM

Not true. What I said is that TJF would analyse members feedback and discuss what it says at the EGM.

I think you were looking for me to say there would be a protest. I haven’t said that.

Edited by sandy
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11 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Denis, we're clearly not going to agree on this. You seem to want TJF to commit to indiscriminate and futile acts of defiance, which will alienate precisely the sort of people who can move the dial in this dispute.

Ultimately the direction of travel is for the members of the organisation, and we think that they will trust us to make the right call within the broad parameters that they set us through expressing their views and continuing, or not, to pay their monthly subs to us.

But if the approach is to be to play into the hands of those who want to dismiss the largest organic members organisation in Thistle memory as a rabble pursuing personal vendettas, you can count me out.

You can’t surely still be thinking that Jacqui Low is going see any kind of reason in this. The only way that TJF are going to win this is by challenging the validity of the transfer to PTFC as Colin Weir’s wishes. If you can’t do that, this games a bogey, just like when we were demoted and took the SPFL to court. You were the one that kept saying it would come to nothing as it was in the rules.

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9 hours ago, sandy said:

Not true. What I said is that TJF would analyse members feedback and discuss what it says at the EGM.

I think you were looking for me to say there would be a protest. I haven’t said that.

sandy, now this is being a politician. If the feedback from the members want to discuss this type of action, it will be on the agenda.

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1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

sandy, now this is being a politician. If the feedback from the members want to discuss this type of action, it will be on the agenda.

There’s a clue in the word ‘If’. Don’t over extend what I meant. You were asking about a protest, I didn’t use that word.

You asked about a ‘call to action’, I said

That’s what I imagine the EGM will help decide once feedback from TJF members has been gathered & analysed. 

Who knows the mood of the members after what has gone on. The feedback will show that.  WJ is correct in his reply above. 

Edited by sandy
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6 hours ago, sandy said:

There’s a clue in the word ‘If’. Don’t over extend what I meant. You were asking about a protest, I didn’t use that word.

You asked about a ‘call to action’, I said

That’s what I imagine the EGM will help decide once feedback from TJF members has been gathered & analysed. 

Who knows the mood of the members after what has gone on. The feedback will show that.  WJ is correct in his reply above. 

I only asked about a call to action because you used that term. I had expected the attendance to be a good bit lower on Friday. I have to say you escalated it by saying it wasn’t lower because their hadn’t been a call to action.

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1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

I only asked about a call to action because you used that term. I had expected the attendance to be a good bit lower on Friday. I have to say you escalated it by saying it wasn’t lower because their hadn’t been a call to action.

escalated it? You’ve lost me mate.

I think we have reached the point where we are arguing inside a paper bag. So let’s just leave it as was always the case; the TJF will be looking at the feedback they receive from members.

Edited by sandy
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13 minutes ago, sandy said:

escalated it? You’ve lost me mate.

I think we have reached the point where we are arguing inside a paper bag. So let’s just leave it as was always the case; the TJF will be looking at the feedback they receive from members.

You have forced a TJF board member to say he will resign if the members decided to boycott games. If that’s not an escalation, I don’t know what is.

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