QP away

[Lenziejag]

27 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

QP might not need to grow if we continue to fail an fall

That’s a very different thing from being a rising star, though. 

[Duke Gekantawa]

1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said:

QP might not need to grow if we continue to fail an fall

I see no real evidence of us continuing to fall and fall to be honest. I would say that our final standing of Scotland’s 16th best club is around about our average over a number of decades (and probably a little higher than our average position this century).  

[Barney Rubble]

I realise that this could be construed as controversial, but I think it's worthy of discussion amongst you good folks.

Here goes - That first goal yesterday summed up in one move why Aidan Fitzpatrick didn't make it at Norwich. Utter irresponsibility on his defensive duties. Yes it was a clever move from the free-kick, but awareness is basic on the football park even when you don't have the ball. Aidan failed badly on that occasion.

In the Montrose game early on when he was playing right side before Cammy Smith went off he got caught leaving his man (number 3) several times.

Without question he's an asset going forward but improvements in his defensive discipline are obviously necessary when Thistle are not in possession.

Rant over and I hope he goes on to make me eat these words.

 

[Cfirejkl]

1 hour ago, Duke Gekantawa said:

I see no real evidence of us continuing to fall and fall to be honest. I would say that our final standing of Scotland’s 16th best club is around about our average over a number of decades (and probably a little higher than our average position this century).  

Before the beginning of last season I quickly calculated our position to be 17th since the beginning of 2000.  Last year we were 16th.  Currently we are 16th.

We seem to be in our sweet spot!

[partickthedog]

31 minutes ago, Cfirejkl said:

Before the beginning of last season I quickly calculated our position to be 17th since the beginning of 2000.  Last year we were 16th.  Currently we are 16th.

We seem to be in our sweet spot!

Despite being in our sweet spot, we still managed to lose a goal to a player called “Savoury”.

[dl1971]

6 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

If they’ve got someone like Willie Haughey bankrolling them , they’ve every chance to be the third team in Glasgow . Success on the park will undoubtedly increase their fan base 

Clyde never had anybody bankrolling them 

With our disfunctional board and their lack of foresight on and off the park there is every chance that Q Park will end up the 3rd team in Glasgow 

Success on the park will undoubtedly increase their fan base. Really? Take a look at St johnstone. Won 2 cups and their fan base hasn't markedly improved. Hamilton...in the Premier for a while. No increase whatsoever. Livingston....done incredibly well but no major increase . So why should QP be any different ? 

[jlsarmy]

13 minutes ago, dl1971 said:

Success on the park will undoubtedly increase their fan base. Really? Take a look at St johnstone. Won 2 cups and their fan base hasn't markedly improved. Hamilton...in the Premier for a while. No increase whatsoever. Livingston....done incredibly well but no major increase . So why should QP be any different ? 

You don’t think coming from a home crowd of approximately 500 supporters that they won’t get more through the turnstiles to watch better quality on the park ?

To a lesser extent than us for example there will be a latent support that will start turning up again to watch a successful team , not 5000 supporters by any manner of means but I’m sure it will be more than they get just now .

Not sure if you’re only basing their crowd numbers on their perceived ambitions.

Think you can see what is happening there with Leanne Dempster at the helm , Willie Haugheys ‘ wealth , the calibre of players that they’re trying to sign .

It won’t happen overnight but you can see that they’re trying to map their future.

[jaggy]

Are they a plaything for Haughey and what happens in the future if his family don’t want to bankroll them when he’s no longer around?

if they are so ambitious why built a 1700 seat stadium in a very small area with limited expansion available? I just don’t get it. 

[JeanieD]

It could be argued that Queen's Park suffered disproportionately when religious identify became a feature of Glaswegian football over a century ago and they took a very brave decision - albeit after over 100 years of trying to sustain the Corinthian spirit -  to abandon their amateur status with the consequence that the only way to justify that decision  would be to invest in both players and ground. They would appear to be pursuing this in a measured and sensible manner - not  in a "sugar daddy" and hoovering up players way but by seemingly taking a structured approach.

Well run, well administered  and perhaps are proving to be a bit ahead of schedule as regards improvements being seen on the park. Crowds will perhaps not increase proportionately to the investments made and the modest initial capacity being put in place at Lesser Hampden would seem to recognise this, but in comparison to the stagnant mess currently being played out at Firhill who is to say that Queens don't deserve the accolade of "best non-sectarian club in Glasgow"? . 

[dl1971]

For the record I would be delighted for QP do well and improve their fan base. I just don't think there is always a correlation, especially in Scotland and we all know the reasons for that. Perhaps when ms low is out the way ( let's hope so ) we can focus on moving forward more positively. 

[sandy]

12 hours ago, partickthedog said:

Despite being in our sweet spot, we still managed to lose a goal to a player called “Savoury”.

Trust you to strike a sour note PTD

[The Thistle Archive]

As the above discussion notes, Thistle's place in the Scottish game has been eroding in recent decades. The arithmetic (see sortable table per link below) shows that our average League finish peaked at 9th in the mid-60s but that we've fallen around 2½ places in the pecking order since then. Mid 70s reconstruction was obviously bad news for a club of our standing, always destined to border that top-tier cut-off point. The evolving strength of Aberdeen and Dundee United as well as the emergence of a plethora of strong new clubs vying for Top 12 places have been contributing factors.

League finish averages →

[lady-isobel-barnett]

22 minutes ago, The Thistle Archive said:

As the above discussion notes, Thistle's place in the Scottish game has been eroding in recent decades. The arithmetic (see sortable table per link below) shows that our average League finish peaked at 9th in the mid-60s but that we've fallen around 2½ places in the pecking order since then. Mid 70s reconstruction was obviously bad news for a club of our standing, always destined to border that top-tier cut-off point. The evolving strength of Aberdeen and Dundee United as well as the emergence of a plethora of strong new clubs vying for Top 12 places have been contributing factors.

League finish averages →

Thanks for that. Clearly shows that with a 12 team top league we're in and about our expected place within the current league structure. 

Also perhaps worth note was the change to home clubs retaining entire gate money. Believe that was back in the early 1980s. I suppose in theory at least that change was a hindrance to us in the top tier but a benefit in the 2nd (and 3rd) tiers. That's based purely on the size of our support against other clubs. We don't have a Roy McGregor to bank roll us. So these days we should be either up challenging for promotion or fighting for survival in the top division. 

[jagfox]

Clubs can improve their status when run well off and on the park. You just have to look at Arbroath who were down in the fourth tier not that long ago. Apparently their BoD have done a great job with getting local sponsors and getting involved in the local community.

Promotion can also give a boost to fan numbers. Hard to see that with QP as they have a limited capacity at their temporary. Might get a better idea once they settle into their new digs. They are capable of maybe filling their new ground bit that will only hold 1500 so no marked increase in the short term anyway.

Thistle? Our crowds are certainly not growing. STs down this year for various reasons.

[Cfirejkl]

7 hours ago, The Thistle Archive said:

As the above discussion notes, Thistle's place in the Scottish game has been eroding in recent decades. The arithmetic (see sortable table per link below) shows that our average League finish peaked at 9th in the mid-60s but that we've fallen around 2½ places in the pecking order since then. Mid 70s reconstruction was obviously bad news for a club of our standing, always destined to border that top-tier cut-off point. The evolving strength of Aberdeen and Dundee United as well as the emergence of a plethora of strong new clubs vying for Top 12 places have been contributing factors.

League finish averages →

Thanks to the Thistle archive for this data --- as always

Doing my own math since the 1975 Premier League our average position has been 14.6 and since 2000 it has been 15.6.  Although for the glass half full set (not that there is many of them on this forum) in the last ten years our position is 13.4.

Would be interesting to see each teams historical average with where they currently sit.  As indicated by jagfox Arbroath would be punching above their weight while I am sure Dunfermline would be amongst the worst lagging behind.

 

I had no idea we had  56 team league back in the twenties.

 

[laukat]

Not so sure that  QP's model is about growing their home support. If you read the Queens Park forum on P&B the communication from club to fans is not one that makes you think the club has the fanbase at the forefront of its thinking. Not many are going to traipse to Stenhousemuir and certainly its unlikely to bring in extra supporters.  I suspect the owners of Queens Park are more looking at what Livingston and Hamilton are and have achieved and aiming for that.

They have recruited a young Dutch coach as their Director of football way before they went for Owen Coyle. That suggests to me they are more looking at creating a youth development programme to sell players on to other UK football clubs. A big part of turning pro was the ability to receive transfer fees.

Queens may just have been astute enough to realise the effect of Brexit on UK clubs. Nowadays its more difficult to buy young/ non-internationally capped players from Europe which in turn will mean premiums being paid for players with a UK passport. To get the top end transfer fee's means having the players play in the upper leagues of Scottish Football to give them a higher profile. 

I'm also not too sure that Queens will be massively out of pocket. Queens got a few million for selling Hampden. Should be more than enough to finance the new stadium being built and subsidise a run towards the top league. So to my mind its not really a question of will Queens become bigger than us. Its more question of will they over the next 5/10 years finish in higher positions and start making profits due to player sales that help fund a few years in the premiership? 

The problem for Queens is that chasing transfer fee's is the same model most if not all the pro clubs in Scotland and even successful ones have a limited lifespan. Once the model starts to run out of steam and the money reserves are depleted where do they end up? As a pro club with a fanbase of 500/600 they should be around the lower end of league 1 but in turning pro they will have lost their USP as the last Amateur club. That could mean they are as likely to end up like Cowdenbeath and Berwick as they are Livingston or Hamilton.