McCall Sacked

[Lenziejag]

14 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

The financial impact of dropping place compared to our current position is not substantial. The prize money difference between 5th and 8th is less than £50k. That figure, in the context of the gap between 5th and 4th, 5th and 3rd or even 5th and 2nd, is not substantial.

My surprise is that you don’t think £50K is substantial. 

[Lenziejag]

17 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

Hi jls, i go to all the home games (season ticket holder for many years) only these days, so i would not comment on our away games. I agree that it has not been great and change was required. I suppose the point i was trying to make was that if our only option to replace McCall was to make Doolan interim manager how many of us would have thought that was preferable.

Of course i hope Dools manages to get us into the playoffs. But no matter what happens Dools will remain a legend at Firhill. It would be great if he did turn into a legend as a manager as well as a player.

Will Doolan always remain a legend? Look what’s happened to Archie. 

[Winter of '63]

35 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

This isn’t correct. The new board gave a substantive update in early January. It was here: https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/board-update-5th-january-2023/

The fans have been kept updated about this. The Working Group was set up and met in late December. TJF, The PTFC Trust and the Jags Trust provided a joint update on 19th January, less than a month ago, advising that the next big decision point was mid-February. See: https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/joint-update-on-future-of-fan-ownership/

A further substantive update on this can therefore be expected very soon.

 

With respect, these are just standard PR blurbs saying nothing -

"Working to ensure the management and playing squad are capable of a sustained push for promotion this season" - that doesn't seem to have gone too well.

I trust the further update will indeed be substantive.

[Auld Jag]

1 minute ago, Lenziejag said:

Will Doolan always remain a legend? Look what’s happened to Archie. 

Only time will tell.Nobody seems to expect much from him as he has not managed before, so unless it is a complete collapse imo it is a bit of a free hit for him. Do well and he will probably get  the managers job, not well back to the academy. As for Archie i know his last season and a bit was poor, but he did get us to our highest league position in nearly 40 years. I do not understand why he came back as one of McCall's assistants though.

[JAG1970]

51 minutes ago, Auld Jag said:

I agree that it has not been great and change was required. I suppose the point i was trying to make was that if our only option to replace McCall was to make Doolan interim manager how many of us would have thought that was preferable.

Indeed… think it would have been the minority. Like everyone else, I hope he succeeds but it’s a hellava gamble.

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, Lenziejag said:

My surprise is that you don’t think £50K is substantial. 

Relative to £240k it isn’t.

[Norgethistle]

Based on form and our points per game ratio, especially since the 1st quarter I think a change was needed.

Even splitting season in 2 

First 12 league matches I believe we got 23 points from 36, next 11 we got 10 points from 33.

Would I have announced it on Sunday night - No

After Sunday I would probably have given him the Ayr game, but if he had to go before I’d have done it on Monday at lunchtime. 
 

I like McColl as a manager, and as a guy to talk to, I think he’s done a lot for us in both terms and we will look back on his tenure with fondness.

I think though for whatever reason the team and himself had got stale, and change was needed sooner rather than later as we were no longer stalling but starting to slip 
 

[Fearchar]

5 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

I guess the Falkirk game showed that the backup wasn’t good enough to start and from the Aberdeen game until now, we haven’t had anything like a full squad to pick from. Maybe, just maybe, with a full squad we play and get results like the start of the season. So for me, the timing was definitely wrong - the decision may have been wrong too.

 

3 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Any change of manager is always an unknown quantity, especially when an untested manager is then brought in.

I am assuming that the Club Board has concluded that Ian McCall is unable, or very unlikely, to meet the objective he was set at the start of the season given recent performances.

They obviously think a change improves those prospects, and have acted accordingly....

....On the financial side, unless you think McCall was going to get us up to 2nd or 3rd, this is a decision that’s perfectly rational even if it turns out to be wrong.

Employee sickness rates are a major indication of how well or badly an employer is managed. It can be argued that these particular employees are exposed to more physical challenges, but they also have expert care for their physique (or should have), unlike most employees. It was increasingly looking like the latter end of Archibald's management until, out of the blue, the players could all turn up and turn it on for an even more challenging game at Ibrox. 😲

IMHO Gerry Britton's time at the club has also run its course. At the very least, he should not have tolerated the return of Archibald. It smacks too much of an old pals' act, and this club can only afford to stick with Scottish football's trends if we are prepared to accept it becoming the very minor, fourth club in Glasgow - the way of Clyde FC.

[jlsarmy]

48 minutes ago, JAG1970 said:

Indeed… think it would have been the minority. Like everyone else, I hope he succeeds but it’s a hellava gamble.

Could only be for a couple of games if a new manager is appointed, Dools will a least give the supporters a lift even if it is for the short term that in itself might motivate the players.

 

[Lambies Lost Doo]

It took Alex Ferguson years to turn Man Utd around.  Our first XI is very good.  We have no right to get promoted esp as Dundee are a bigger club than us.  If we failed this season then we would have had stfong foundations to build on.  McCall should not have been sacked IMHO.

When we got promoted 10 years ago that was a special team.  It clicked with a lot of players signed by McCall.  We also benefitted from Rangers, Hearts and Hibs all having various reasons causing relegation.

We are a yoyo club with results that make you laugh one week then cry the next.  It's our level.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Lambies Lost Doo

[lady-isobel-barnett]

2 hours ago, Auld Jag said:

Of course i hope Dools manages to get us into the playoffs. But no matter what happens Dools will remain a legend at Firhill. It would be great if he did turn into a legend as a manager as well as a player.

 

2 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

Will Doolan always remain a legend? Look what’s happened to Archie. 

In my time of watching the Jags I think we've had around twenty managers. I can only count three of them as what I'd call legends. I might have added a fourth if he'd moved on to a bigger club in the summer of 2017. So the odds are stacked against Kris particularly starting off from a standing start so to speak.

I sincerely hope Dools doesn't get labelled under "jobs for the boys". His appointment to our Youth Development was merited. He's certainly qualified enough for such a coaching role. It now kinda looks like things dictate he was an obvious choice for the manager's slot. Certainly on a short term basis at least. Looks to me the only other possible candidates were Brian Graham or Gerry Britton.   

Naturally we all would love to see Dools succeed. Just hope if he gets the gig on a permanent basis, and subsequently if things aren't going well, he gets out quick with his legend status relatively unstained. We've seen the likes of Archie, Jimmy Bone and Rough lose some of that legendary shine. Would hate to see something similar happen with Doolan.  

Edited February 14, 2023 by lady-isobel-barnett

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Jim, at no point did I say that the funds given to McCall to achieve promotion were adequate to achieve that objective. Neither you nor I know if that was the case. But as Alan Rough has now helpfully confirmed on PLZ, the budgeting assumption at the Club was that we would finish 2nd. If the manager doesn’t feel that he’s been given enough money in the summer transfer window to meet the objective imposed on him by his employers that’s really a matter for him.

I’ve literally just said that the logic of their position is that they believe Dools can improve on this. Whether or not they are right is ultimately a footballing assessment. That’s what a football club board is there to do.

You think their assessment of the footballing potential here is wrong. That’s fine. Entirely your prerogative.

No I haven’t “ignored” this. It’s the entire premise behind the original post. They think there is a better chance of us finishing 2nd (£240k better off), 3rd (£160k better off) or 4th (£80k better off) with Doolan as manager than with McCall. That is their footballing assessment.

But equally if we don’t finish lower than 8th, and would have finished 5th anyway, there is no significant financial detriment. It’s a risk, but one that they’ve decided is worth taking.

Of course you can. There’s been several material changes of circumstance since the original objective was set, and part of that is that McCall’s team has underperformed expected league position so far. It is ultimately a footballing assessment whether he would have improved the position between now and the end of the season. On this opinions can reasonably differ.

It’s just as well it’s an interim board then, isn’t it?

If Alan Rough said it -then we can obviously work on the assumption that this was accurate and reasonable- and that the Manager was fully onboard with these assumptions -

since he was sacked for not meeting them then he can have no complaints -

obviously based on the statement from the Current Board - failure to meet the targets of the previous Board and full acceptance of the previous Boards calculations that there was an adequate Budget is all we need to know -

taking this logic further - there will be no surprises in the due diligence of our Finances -as everything stated by the previous board is accepted without question ? 

So in accordance with the Club Statement the Management Team were sacked based on the previous Boards Promotion Targets -and accepted Budget Allocation 

There “expected league position” is also based on a target from the previous Board

And No -you cant have different expectations from Management Teams - if you Fire one Team for not hitting targets - then you appoint someone who will hit them ( otherwise there is no point in making the changes )  

I would comment thus - the target and assumption of second was based on the previous Board - the Budget ( which the current Board believe was adequate ) again set by the Previous Board - the Current Board fired them -based on the previous Boards targets and budgets - bit strange - but hey ho 

yet we are now being told of Financial Challenges -that seem to have developed in the last couple of Months ?  Which I dont remember being mentioned by the previous Board at the AGM - but you have questioned 

So its ok to accept the assumptions made early in the Season -regards finishing position and adequate budgets ( and fire people as a result ) but its also ok to question other financial statements - so which one is it - or do we Cherry Pick the bits that suit ? 

Sorry but that doesn't sit right - you have to act reasonably -and this simply isnt making sense 

But -and I repeat - we don't make the Play Offs - the Board Resigns - simple as that 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

34 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Could only be for a couple of games if a new manager is appointed, Dools will a least give the supporters a lift even if it is for the short term that in itself might motivate the players.

 

Where is the Cash for a New Management Team coming from - TJF had to fund a player Contract extension 

[Jordanhill Jag]

56 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Based on form and our points per game ratio, especially since the 1st quarter I think a change was needed.

Even splitting season in 2 

First 12 league matches I believe we got 23 points from 36, next 11 we got 10 points from 33.

Would I have announced it on Sunday night - No

After Sunday I would probably have given him the Ayr game, but if he had to go before I’d have done it on Monday at lunchtime. 
 

I like McColl as a manager, and as a guy to talk to, I think he’s done a lot for us in both terms and we will look back on his tenure with fondness.

I think though for whatever reason the team and himself had got stale, and change was needed sooner rather than later as we were no longer stalling but starting to slip 
 

Change to what - Someone who has never managed a Team ? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 hours ago, Lenziejag said:

He’s going too ? When was that announced?

No idea if it was - but its a fact -it looks like a Clear Out 

[Big Col]

1 minute ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Change to what - Someone who has never managed a Team ? 

Just out of interest - how many games have you been to this season? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, Big Col said:

Just out of interest - how many games have you been to this season? 

Half a dozen 

[Big Col]

3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Half a dozen 

Any since 1st Jan? I’m just looking for your opinion on the standard of play and performance of the team.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Big Col

[Barney Rubble]

42 minutes ago, Lambies Lost Doo said:

It took Alex Ferguson years to turn Man Utd around.  Our first XI is very good.  We have no right to get promoted esp as Dundee are a bigger club than us.  If we failed this season then we would have had stfong foundations to build on.  McCall should not have been sacked IMHO.

When we got promoted 10 years ago that was a special team.  It clicked with a lot of players signed by McCall.  We also benefitted from Rangers, Hearts and Hibs all having various reasons causing relegation.

We are a yoyo club with results that make you laugh one week then cry the next.  It's our level.

It's more accurate to say that team clicked because the players signed by Jackie McNamara took McCall's foundations to another level - O'Donnell, Lawless, Craig, Craigen, Murray (in particular) and Fox. After Jackie, Archie then took them over the line to yet another level.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Barney Rubble

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, Big Col said:

Any since 1st Jan?

Yes 

Your point being ? 
 

or are you going to go on about Cove and the Accies Games ? 
 

The objective is promotion - we are one point outside the play off spot - the Board decided thats not good enough and sacked the Manager and Coaches ( including Kenny Arthur ) 

Therefore Dools is assumed to be able to turn things around and get us a play off spot - fair enough 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jlsarmy]

9 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Change to what - Someone who has never managed a Team ? 

Think the key word in the statement JJ is interim similar to Barry Robson at Aberdeen, I know Dools is a good coach but not sure if he’s cut out to be a manager yet .

Think Doolan will only be a stopgap till we get someone else In .

[Jordanhill Jag]

10 minutes ago, jlsarmy said:

Think the key word in the statement JJ is interim similar to Barry Robson at Aberdeen, I know Dools is a good coach but not sure if he’s cut out to be a manager yet .

Think Doolan will only be a stopgap till we get someone else In .

Where is the Money for a New Management Team coming from - its No Secret that before we sacked the New Management Team people were being approached asking about Investing in the Club ( which as the shares are owned by the Fans not sure how that works ? ) 

[Big Col]

15 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Yes 

Your point being ? 
 

or are you going to go on about Cove and the Accies Games ? 
 

The objective is promotion - we are one point outside the play off spot - the Board decided thats not good enough and sacked the Manager and Coaches ( including Kenny Arthur ) 

Therefore Dools is assumed to be able to turn things around and get us a play off spot - fair enough 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Board judged that the team performances have been poor and on a downwards trajectory and therefore managerial change was needed. A significant number of the support agree. Maybe you’ve been lucky enough to attend games when the team have played well and won. Unfortunately that hasn’t been the case recently. We also need to bear in mind that some of the budget given to the manager  has been wasted on players who aren’t good enough. Add it all up and I think the decision to remove them was the right one. 

[Lambies Lost Doo]

Didn't realise Kenny Arthur was gone! GK coach is usually neutral so rare for that position to also go.

[Jordanhill Jag]

24 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

It's more accurate to say that team clicked because the players signed by Jackie McNamara took McCall's foundations to another level - O'Donnell, Lawless, Craig, Craigen, Murray (in particular) and Fox. After Jackie, Archie then took them over the line to yet another level.

Yes - and if you look at it - this took a number of Seasons of Steady Building - Nor were there targets set ref Promotion in a certain Season -  plus we were up against Morton