McCall Sacked

[Lenziejag]

2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

(1) Literally read this, we made our views abundantly clear https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/message-from-the-tjf-chair/

(2) I am happy to state on the record that announcing this on the Sunday was incredibly ******* stupid and pisspoor Comms. Is that critical enough for you? But what’s done is done and cannot be undone in that respect so there’s no point having protracted moans about it. And if even I’m saying that…

(3) I am saying the substantive decision is one the Club Board was entitled to take, and one that I happen personally to think on balance is the right one

(4) TJF has absolutely nothing to do with operational football decisions at the Club. Nor does the working group.

I hadn’t seen that statement before. It doesn’t convey much rage to me, although I am sure there are discussions going on as to how to continue with PTFC Trust. Did the Board know they were going to bin McCall before TJF handed over money for Hodson ?

[laukat]

@Jordanhill Jag - if you are a mate of Ian McCall can you pass on my thanks?

I think we've spent a lot of time debating if it was right for him to go rather than accepting its done and appreciating what he did do.

He may have hit the ceiling on where he could take us, personally I think he would have made the playoffs, but more importantly he made Thistle an enjoyable team to watch again.

Whilst I had some frustrations with his rigid adherence to 4-3-3 and thought he struggled to change tactics during the game his player recruitment has been massively better than what went before. When his team played well it was joy to watch. 

Guys like Tiffoney and Milne are sometime worth the admission money on their own. Players like Graham and Docherty brought a sense of fight back into a team that hadn't had it for quite a while. I don't think they would be at the club without McCall. 

I might be on my own with this one but I actually like McCall's interviews. I thought he spoke with a level of honesty particularly in post match interviews that you don't get from most modern day managers. 

I'll miss the twirl of the cap, it was beginning to have the same meaning as blast of Cliff Richard after a Thistle win.

All the best to him and I hope when he's back at Firhill he gets a warm welcome and a round of applause. Perhaps the performance at Ibrox was the nearest thing to going out on a high.

[Yellow & Redneck]

7 minutes ago, laukat said:

@Jordanhill Jag - if you are a mate of Ian McCall can you pass on my thanks?

I think we've spent a lot of time debating if it was right for him to go rather than accepting its done and appreciating what he did do.

He may have hit the ceiling on where he could take us, personally I think he would have made the playoffs, but more importantly he made Thistle an enjoyable team to watch again.

Whilst I had some frustrations with his rigid adherence to 4-3-3 and thought he struggled to change tactics during the game his player recruitment has been massively better than what went before. When his team played well it was joy to watch. 

Guys like Tiffoney and Milne are sometime worth the admission money on their own. Players like Graham and Docherty brought a sense of fight back into a team that hadn't had it for quite a while. I don't think they would be at the club without McCall. 

I might be on my own with this one but I actually like McCall's interviews. I thought he spoke with a level of honesty particularly in post match interviews that you don't get from most modern day managers. 

I'll miss the twirl of the cap, it was beginning to have the same meaning as blast of Cliff Richard after a Thistle win.

All the best to him and I hope when he's back at Firhill he gets a warm welcome and a round of applause. Perhaps the performance at Ibrox was the nearest thing to going out on a high.

I think this is a great post.

Would slightly disagree with the point regarding interviews. I remember in his first stint prior to leaving after the Falkirk game, his post-match interviews became increasingly more bizarre and deluded (i.e., playing "every so well" against Hamilton). 

 But what can never, ever be in doubt is that McCall is a real Jags man, and had a love for this club unmatched by most (if not all) former managers. If there was anyone I willed to succeed, it was him. Unfortunately, it wasn't to be.

[Woodstock Jag]

10 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I hadn’t seen that statement before. It doesn’t convey much rage to me

Because going off on one publicly would have achieved precisely nothing. It’s not something that can be undone.

10 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

although I am sure there are discussions going on as to how to continue with PTFC Trust.

They are, but they’re completely irrelevant to this decision made by the Club Board, not the Trust.

10 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

Did the Board know they were going to bin McCall before TJF handed over money for Hodson ?

You’d have to ask the Club Board when it made the decision. The press reporting suggests the decision was taken after the Cove Rangers game.

So that would suggest “no they didn’t” because the Hodson money was made available before the Dunfermline game, a clear fortnight earlier, and when the transfer window was still open. Their assessment has clearly been influenced by what happened subsequently.

[Lenziejag]

2 hours ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Unfortunately we, the fans, have no powers .... yet. As has been repeatedly said, the working group are looking at models that may give us more power to appoint directors at some point in the future.

The club, like any company, requires a board of directors to govern the business. It is down to the shareholders to decide who they should be and they decided on the current set up as an interim measure until the above is sorted. That is not something that we, tjf or anyone else has any control over.

If the board can't make decisions on how they think the club should be run, in what they believe to be the best interests of the business, who can ?

The fans have no formal power. But we saw the power of the fans earlier in the season which resulted in the old board departing.

[Woodstock Jag]

Broadly agree with laukat’s sentiments, for what it’s worth. He’s left the Club in a better place than he found it.

I’m less convinced about enjoyable to watch (second half of last season was torture). There have been some really great games (Inverness before Christmas a textbook example as was Hamilton away last season). But I wouldn’t go as far as to say entertainment has been heavily prioritised.

[javeajag]

Ok…..steady on…..

I can understand that this  season has been a bit disappointing so far and there is a case for changing the management team but now ?

most clubs in our position would normally do this in dec/Jan given the transfer window, half way through the season etc etc 

Clubs who change managers at this time are usually (not always) those fighting relegation not promotion and we do still have a chance of promotion….. a change of manager has risks on the downside as well as 

so for me the sensible thing to do was keep McCall till the end of the season and assess things then

its a complete joke to call appointing Doolan a ‘strategic decision’…..in what planet is replacing an experienced manager with a complete novice with no experience or track record  ‘ strategic ‘ ?!…..let’s be clear it’s a risk appointment 

and if doolan doesn’t win 4 or 5 games does he go because another ‘strategic decision’ might bring in someone who might just get us into the top 4 ?

[Mr Scruff]

I would echo those passing on their thanks to IMcC and the team for their efforts, as well as the feeling of slight disbelief at the timing of the announcement.

But I would say that I've thought for a while that change was needed.  I had a quick chat with him after the Cove game and he gave the clear impression that he wasn't sure what was wrong and what needed to change.  Although honest, it also spoke to me of management through hope rather than positive planning.

I feared at that time that the interim nature of the board might paralyse them into inactivity, when they do still have a fiduciary and strategic duty to the club, and that we might just stagger on regardless of performance on and off the park.

The fact that they have acted, even with the questionable timing, gives me some hope that we might not just be rudderless in the coming period, and that the full transition to fan ownership will work out well (when a board is not Interim).

And to the point that we're 1 point off fourth, we're precisely the same off seventh and the direction of travel is clear.  Sometimes not making a decision is a bigger decision itself.

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

I highly doubt that the target league performance was an express written condition of anyone’s contract Jim.

What the Club’s operating budget would break even at, and what the league performance target set by the board is, and what the manager’s contract says, are three distinct things.

OK Understood 

But there is a Clear Distinction between Hitting Second Spot and a Playoff - and earning the Associated Revenue and the target being Outright Promotion - Managers are given targets in all walks of life Yearly ( seperate from there Contract )  Now if that hasnt been clearly set out - then a) Questions have to be asked and b) what were the current Board told ref the agreed objectives from the Previous Board -  as they have used them as a reason for dismissal c) we cannot remove the fact these are people who have been dismissed - and we treat them fairly 

If they had given the Management Team - the next Three Games and we slipped out of the possibility of a Play Off - then No Probs - they Go - But if there was No Clear ( or Contradictory Objectives ) then they have been treated very harshly 

Clubs Operating Budget has No bearing on the Managers Targets - thats a whole different kettle of Fish 🙂

 AR Stated the Target was second place with associated Revenue ( which is linked to Player Budget ) and as he stated - this was Covered by the Rangers Revenue by not getting second  

So we are left in the Position where the Current Board have dismissed the Management Team based on a set of Objectives-  given out at the Start of the Season by the previous Board ie Outright Promotion   - AR has stated a different set ( or Contradictory ) set of Objectives were given ie Second Place 

As you say the Board are there to make decisions - they have made them-  but I would like to think they were made on clear concise information ? As Ive said - its people Livliehoods - its not FIFA Manager 

- so Good Luck with it - only time will judge if they are the correct ones 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Jordanhill Jag

[MonehJags]

9 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

OK Understood 

But there is a Clear Distinction between Hitting Second Spot and a Playoff - and earning the Associated Revenue and the target being Outright Promotion - Managers are given targets in all walks of life Yearly ( seperate from there Contract )  Now if that hasnt been clearly set out - then a) Questions have to be asked and b) what were the current Board told ref the agreed objectives from the Previous Board -  as they have used them as a reason for dismissal c) we cannot remove the fact these are people who have been dismissed - and we treat them fairly 

If they had given the Management Team - the next Three Games and we slipped out of the possibility of a Play Off - then No Probs - they Go - But if there was No Clear ( or Contradictory Objectives ) then they have been treated very harshly 

Clubs Operating Budget has No bearing on the Managers Targets - thats a whole different kettle of Fish 🙂

 AR Stated the Target was second place with associated Revenue ( which is linked to Player Budget ) and as he stated - this was Covered by the Rangers Revenue by not getting second  

So we are left in the Position where the Current Board have dismissed the Management Team based on a set of Objectives-  given out at the Start of the Season by the previous Board ie Outright Promotion   - AR has stated a different set ( or Contradictory ) set of Objectives were given ie Second Place 

As you say the Board are there to make decisions - they have made them-  but I would like to think they were made on clear concise information ? As Ive said - its people Livliehoods - its not FIFA Manager 

- so Good Luck with it - only time will judge if they are the correct ones 

 

 

You forgot to mention that we are one point outside the Play Off Zone

[MonehJags]

As has been mentioned before, it might have been better if McCall was kept on in a scouting/DOF role, however that comes at a cost which apparently we dont have

[sandy]

Decent post from @laukat above re thanking McCall. In many ways Thistle have been his home.

But the Interim Board took an objective view - and performances have been stale. Jan-Mar 2022 was bad enough, recent results haven’t been good enough. 

Sentiment doesn’t come into the equation in a results-orientated business. 

We are where we are, let’s get behind Dools.

Edited February 16, 2023 by sandy
typo

[Lenziejag]

4 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Wrong. They were relieved of their duties because the Club Board made an assessment that the Club’s footballing objectives were less likely to be met with the existing management team in charge than with a change of management team.

This is not the same as simply saying McCall “didn’t meet his targets”.

£240k.

No, it could be anything from a worsening of £50k on our current league position (if we fall to 8th) and a £240k gain (if, miraculously, we finish 2nd). It’s £160k if we finish 3rd and £80k if we finish 4th.

This is only true if you believe Alan Rough has his sums right and that the following other things are all true:

 (a) the Club increased income to cover the £215k operating loss of the previous season

(b) the Club fully replaced the non-recurring revenue from the Queen’s Park groundshare

 (c) the Club, separately, increased income to cover any increase in the player budget compared to the previous season

 (d) the Club, separately, increased income to cover rising off-field costs (given inflation challenges and roof repairs in the summer

The above are all necessary (or at least highly likely) budget assumptions for the 2022-23 season, based on what we know about the Club’s operating costs and income from the 2021-22 season.

If the Club are telling you that meeting the 2022-23 budget is going to face “significant challenges” its safe to say it isn’t because Ian McCall wasn’t given enough money for players. It’s because one or more of the budgeting assumptions isn’t holding up, and/or because the team is underperforming and prize money will be lower than expected.

If, even after the Rangers money, they are still telling you that “significant challenges” exist you know pretty much for certain that one or more of the non-footballing assumptions hasn’t held up. Which is what makes Alan Rough’s break even claim not credible.

All purely footballing speculation. A lot of fans don’t share your optimism about how McCall would have done.

Only if someone shares your assessment of Ian McCall’s performance and expected future performance.

Correct. But putting McCall on gardening leave has no significant negative impact on those finances unless you believe McCall would have finished 2nd or 3rd in the league. You clearly think that. Lots of others don’t.

Only if it has significant cost implications. Which it’s safe to assume giving the gig to Doolan, as opposed to (say) Jim Goodwin, does not.

I mean it kind of is the key issue Jim. Teams that get promoted don’t (in almost all cases) get pumped at home by part time teams that concede over five goals a game in their previous six games.

As I pointed out earlier, McCall has an established track record at this level of starting very strongly in a season, the arse falling out of the season, and finishing mid table or worse. I like the guy and he’s left the Club in a better place than he found it. But with the players at his disposal there was really no excuse for being 5th at this stage in the season: injuries or otherwise.

Do TJF still not have sight of the club budgets and finances ?

[Lenziejag]

2 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said:

Because going off on one publicly would have achieved precisely nothing. It’s not something that can be undone.

They are, but they’re completely irrelevant to this decision made by the Club Board, not the Trust.

You’d have to ask the Club Board when it made the decision. The press reporting suggests the decision was taken after the Cove Rangers game.

So that would suggest “no they didn’t” because the Hodson money was made available before the Dunfermline game, a clear fortnight earlier, and when the transfer window was still open. Their assessment has clearly been influenced by what happened subsequently.

I don’t think I will ever believe it is based on those 2 results against Cove & Hamilton. Ok, we lost to QP on Jan 2nd, but those were the only 3 defeats in the last 10, which included 5 wins and 2 draws. That form was close to the start of the season that had us top of the league. Something stinks.

[Dick Dastardly]

1 hour ago, MonehJags said:

As has been mentioned before, it might have been better if McCall was kept on in a scouting/DOF role, however that comes at a cost which apparently we dont have

If the board have deemed that he has failed in his role, why should they reward him with a new job ? Having him hovering around the new manager is hardly going to be helpful going forward.

Also, I am far from convinced that he is any better than average for the Championship in his recruitment. Yes he has found some really good players, but he has also brought in some total dross.

Finally, we must get rid of this jobs for the boys mentality. We need new blood and new ideas. No problem with Dools getting the interim manager role, but I would prefer an outsider to get the permanent role (but equally would not complain 1 bit id Dools has a 100% record to the end of the season !)

[Dick Dastardly]

2 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I don’t think I will ever believe it is based on those 2 results against Cove & Hamilton. Ok, we lost to QP on Jan 2nd, but those were the only 3 defeats in the last 10, which included 5 wins and 2 draws. That form was close to the start of the season that had us top of the league. Something stinks.

Or looking at the stats in another way 1 win in the last 6 since the turn of the year puts a different perspective on form.

[Lenziejag]

2 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Or looking at the stats in another way 1 win in the last 6 since the turn of the year puts a different perspective on form.

But we’ve already been here. We’d lost 6 in a row before recovering. I don’t believe the boards statement. I think they have already settled for 8th. They have given Doolan no chance and no support, and their inexperience is going to cost us for many seasons.

[Dick Dastardly]

20 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

But we’ve already been here. We’d lost 6 in a row before recovering. I don’t believe the boards statement. I think they have already settled for 8th. They have given Doolan no chance and no support, and their inexperience is going to cost us for many seasons.

I was only pointing out that you can use recent form stats to highlight whatever point you are trying to make. Last 6 is different from last 10 is different from last 16. I think that just shows how consistently inconsistent we are. Also, 1 point from playoff is also 1 point from 7th which also paints a different picture.

[javeajag]

49 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

If the board have deemed that he has failed in his role, why should they reward him with a new job ? Having him hovering around the new manager is hardly going to be helpful going forward.

Also, I am far from convinced that he is any better than average for the Championship in his recruitment. Yes he has found some really good players, but he has also brought in some total dross.

Finally, we must get rid of this jobs for the boys mentality. We need new blood and new ideas. No problem with Dools getting the interim manager role, but I would prefer an outsider to get the permanent role (but equally would not complain 1 bit id Dools has a 100% record to the end of the season !)

The ‘strategic’ sacking of McCall is predicated on the basis Doolan will improve the results that McCall would have achieved …..no matter what way you dress it up that’s taking a risk birth financially and in performance.

[Dick Dastardly]

3 minutes ago, javeajag said:

The ‘strategic’ sacking of McCall is predicated on the basis Doolan will improve the results that McCall would have achieved …..no matter what way you dress it up that’s taking a risk birth financially and in performance.

And also unable to be proven one way or the other. No one knows what would have happened if McCall had stayed.

[Mr Scruff]

Just now, Dick Dastardly said:

And also unable to be proven one way or the other. No one knows what would have happened if McCall had stayed.

Precisely.

[MonehJags]

1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said:

If the board have deemed that he has failed in his role, why should they reward him with a new job ? Having him hovering around the new manager is hardly going to be helpful going forward.

Also, I am far from convinced that he is any better than average for the Championship in his recruitment. Yes he has found some really good players, but he has also brought in some total dross.

Finally, we must get rid of this jobs for the boys mentality. We need new blood and new ideas. No problem with Dools getting the interim manager role, but I would prefer an outsider to get the permanent role (but equally would not complain 1 bit id Dools has a 100% record to the end of the season !)

Cant argue with much of that to be honest. 

The signing of Tiffoney probably saved him from the sack when we were in the league below.

Ian Holloway would make an interesting appointment..........

[Jimmy McD]

What happens if this all goes terribly wrong for Doolan, he goes back to his coaching job ,, and never gets the chance of being the manager in the future, just a thought..

[Dick Dastardly]

22 minutes ago, Jimmy McD said:

What happens if this all goes terribly wrong for Doolan, he goes back to his coaching job ,, and never gets the chance of being the manager in the future, just a thought..

Risk for both club and Dools. What happens if it all goes terribly right ? Doc lifts the 2026 Champions League and Doolan rejects offers from Barcelona to stay with the club he loves 

[Lenziejag]

1 hour ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I was only pointing out that you can use recent form stats to highlight whatever point you are trying to make. Last 6 is different from last 10 is different from last 16. I think that just shows how consistently inconsistent we are. Also, 1 point from playoff is also 1 point from 7th which also paints a different picture.

The point I was trying to make was that the rationale that Kris Doolan has more chance of achieving the objective of promotion than Ian McCall is cloud Cuckoo Cuckoo land. So they should come clean and tell us what has happened.