Playing budget 23/24

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, erty13 said:

The squad just had too many senior players. For most of the season we had Mullen, Dowds, Smith, and Fitztrick on the bench. Great for the manager to have options, but not great for the senior players on the bench, as they all had limited game time. Most teams would only have two senior attacking options on the bench supplemented by loans or youth team.

McCall built a squad  that was more than the budget could sustain.

How do you know he overspent the Budget - he can only spend what the Board gives him 

Ive now heard this a few times - its clearly a deflection away from the fact we have serious financial issues 

wither you like McCall or not - its his squad that took us to a Heartbeat from Promotion - he is not responsible for the Clubs finances - the Board are 

[Garscube Road End 2]

6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

How do you know he overspent the Budget - he can only spend what the Board gives him 

Ive now heard this a few times - its clearly a deflection away from the fact we have serious financial issues 

wither you like McCall or not - its his squad that took us to a Heartbeat from Promotion - he is not responsible for the Clubs finances - the Board are 

Indeed. McCall's squad took us within a sitter miss from Bannigan of the top flight, but it wasn't McCall who took us there!

[Yellow & Redneck]

I don't know if I'm alone, but I'm certainly starting to feel quite resentful of the club. It seems as if previous boards (and I include the inept Gerry Britton in this) were happy to financially mismanage and roll the dice knowing that out gullable fans would bail them out again if it all went wrong. 

The fans of most clubs are there to supplement income generated by the board. But once again we are the ones expected to bail out the mistakes of others (and I do believe that those responsible knew we would). 

I just wonder how long the good will of the fans will last before they decide that it shouldn't be their responsibility to rescue the club once every five years. 

(Obviously, the fan ownership model concerns me at time like this where we need investment). 

[a f kincaid]

Yes, if only we had a multi-millionaire Thistle supporting friend willing to put money into the club.  Oh, haud oan a minute.....

[scotty]

5 minutes ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

I don't know if I'm alone, but I'm certainly starting to feel quite resentful of the club. It seems as if previous boards (and I include the inept Gerry Britton in this) were happy to financially mismanage and roll the dice knowing that out gullable fans would bail them out again if it all went wrong. 

The fans of most clubs are there to supplement income generated by the board. But once again we are the ones expected to bail out the mistakes of others (and I do believe that those responsible knew we would). 

I just wonder how long the good will of the fans will last before they decide that it shouldn't be their responsibility to rescue the club once every five years. 

(Obviously, the fan ownership model concerns me at time like this where we need investment). 

I believe the fan ownership model is the only viable way forward for our club. If there are investors out there willing to put money in they will. Why would anyone buy the club when there would be no financial return?

[Lambies Lost Doo]

42 minutes ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

(Obviously, the fan ownership model concerns me at time like this where we need investment). 

Anyone can invest in the club.  Fan ownership does not stop this.  Anyone can apply to be on the board.

Remember the fans own the club but do not run it.

1. There is a TJF board 

2. There is a club board

This is a model that other clubs like Hearts have.

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Garscube Road End 2 said:

Indeed. McCall's squad took us within a sitter miss from Bannigan of the top flight, but it wasn't McCall who took us there!

So we dont reinvent History - we were 1 point from 4th with 30 Points to play for 

At the end we finished 4th and on the last game of the Season -  we could have actually finished 6th if results had gone against us  

We had a great run in the Play Offs - the Squad clicked in the Playoffs 

 it would be churlish simply to ignore the fact that McCall assembled a Good Squad 

We have No idea what was going on in the background at the time - and the fact that we now find out that we were £600K in debt at the end of last Year is revealing - the fact that Februarys Wages would not be paid without the Cup Game is revealing 

So I dont think we should be judging anyone on the Football Side under these circumstances

The fact we sacked McCall but no one has resigned or been sacked over the Financial Mess is again "revealing" as to the culture at the Club  

I accept Football is brutal and Managers get sacked 

But why has no one else been sacked for putting the Clubs existence at risk - where is the Board ? 

You cant sack McCall and have different rules for others 

 

 

 

 

 

[laukat]

5 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So we dont reinvent History - we were 1 point from 4th with 30 Points to play for 

At the end we finished 4th and on the last game of the Season -  we could have actually finished 6th if results had gone against us  

We had a great run in the Play Offs - the Squad clicked in the Playoffs 

 it would be churlish simply to ignore the fact that McCall assembled a Good Squad 

We have No idea what was going on in the background at the time - and the fact that we now find out that we were £600K in debt at the end of last Year is revealing - the fact that Februarys Wages would not be paid without the Cup Game is revealing 

So I dont think we should be judging anyone on the Football Side under these circumstances

The fact we sacked McCall but no one has resigned or been sacked over the Financial Mess is again "revealing" as to the culture at the Club  

I accept Football is brutal and Managers get sacked 

But why has no one else been sacked for putting the Clubs existence at risk - where is the Board ? 

You cant sack McCall and have different rules for others 

 

 

 

 

 

I was going to make a very similar comment. I think its wrong to assume the overspend was solely down to throwing money at the playing squad.

From the information posted yesterday we lost £280k despite extra income of £300k from a cup game and an unknown amount from a fan donation. So this year we overspent by £600k.

McCall clearly was allocated some of that but the playing squad never increased by much in terms of size.

 We already had Sneddon, Brownlie, Graham, Holt, Docherty, Bannigan Tiffoney, Turner, Smith, Akinola, Mccready, Stanway, Ocholi and Owens on existing deals at the club so their wages won't have increased by much or by an unknown amount.

How much more are Mitchell, Milne, McMillan, Muirhead, Fitzpatrick, Lawless, Dowds, Mullen, MacKinnon and Hodson costing compared to Foster, Bell, Mayo, Jackubiak/Rudden, McKenna, Gordon, Niang, Crawford, Hastie, Hendrie and McAllister?

Is the difference on about 10 players wages really £600k? That would mean there were getting an extra £60k than the person they were replacing and we're paying most of them around £100k p.a. That just doesn't seem possible. 

I would love to hear where the money has gone at the club. My suspicion is quite a lot was spent on Jlow and pals vanity projects.  On the last few accounts the head count of non-playing staff looked very high when compared to pre-Jlow championship seasons. Who are the extra people? What value do they bring? Were some of the directors getting paid either directly on indirectly by the club? 

[Fawlty Towers]

3 minutes ago, laukat said:

I was going to make a very similar comment. I think its wrong to assume the overspend was solely down to throwing money at the playing squad.

From the information posted yesterday we lost £280k despite extra income of £300k from a cup game and an unknown amount from a fan donation. So this year we overspent by £600k.

McCall clearly was allocated some of that but the playing squad never increased by much in terms of size.

 We already had Sneddon, Brownlie, Graham, Holt, Docherty, Bannigan Tiffoney, Turner, Smith, Akinola, Mccready, Stanway, Ocholi and Owens on existing deals at the club so their wages won't have increased by much or by an unknown amount.

How much more are Mitchell, Milne, McMillan, Muirhead, Fitzpatrick, Lawless, Dowds, Mullen, MacKinnon and Hodson costing compared to Foster, Bell, Mayo, Jackubiak/Rudden, McKenna, Gordon, Niang, Crawford, Hastie, Hendrie and McAllister?

Is the difference on about 10 players wages really £600k? That would mean there were getting an extra £60k than the person they were replacing and we're paying most of them around £100k p.a. That just doesn't seem possible. 

I would love to hear where the money has gone at the club. My suspicion is quite a lot was spent on Jlow and pals vanity projects.  On the last few accounts the head count of non-playing staff looked very high when compared to pre-Jlow championship seasons. Who are the extra people? What value do they bring? Were some of the directors getting paid either directly on indirectly by the club? 

Over the summer we had to sort the pitch and the Colin Weir Stand roof so I would imagine that would account for some of the additional expense but you would know you are doing that so would budget for it - or am I just mad?

[scotty]

36 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

So we dont reinvent History - we were 1 point from 4th with 30 Points to play for 

At the end we finished 4th and on the last game of the Season -  we could have actually finished 6th if results had gone against us  

We had a great run in the Play Offs - the Squad clicked in the Playoffs 

 it would be churlish simply to ignore the fact that McCall assembled a Good Squad 

We have No idea what was going on in the background at the time - and the fact that we now find out that we were £600K in debt at the end of last Year is revealing - the fact that Februarys Wages would not be paid without the Cup Game is revealing 

So I dont think we should be judging anyone on the Football Side under these circumstances

The fact we sacked McCall but no one has resigned or been sacked over the Financial Mess is again "revealing" as to the culture at the Club  

I accept Football is brutal and Managers get sacked 

But why has no one else been sacked for putting the Clubs existence at risk - where is the Board ? 

You cant sack McCall and have different rules for others

 it would be churlish simply to ignore the fact that McCall assembled a Good Squad

He maybe assembled them but didn't get the best out of them.

[watties wallies]

would Kris Doolan have been made aware of this shortfall before he took on the manager role

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, scotty said:

 it would be churlish simply to ignore the fact that McCall assembled a Good Squad

He maybe assembled them but didn't get the best out of them.

We finished 4th and could have finished 6th if results had gone against us 

There was not a massive change under Dools in results average during the Season 

play offs were obviously a different matter 

 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

Just now, watties wallies said:

would Kris Doolan have been made aware of this shortfall before he took on the manager role

The shortfall had been halved due to the Rangers Game 

[Jordanhill Jag]

10 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

Over the summer we had to sort the pitch and the Colin Weir Stand roof so I would imagine that would account for some of the additional expense but you would know you are doing that so would budget for it - or am I just mad?

Thats not £600k though ? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

16 minutes ago, laukat said:

I was going to make a very similar comment. I think its wrong to assume the overspend was solely down to throwing money at the playing squad.

From the information posted yesterday we lost £280k despite extra income of £300k from a cup game and an unknown amount from a fan donation. So this year we overspent by £600k.

McCall clearly was allocated some of that but the playing squad never increased by much in terms of size.

 We already had Sneddon, Brownlie, Graham, Holt, Docherty, Bannigan Tiffoney, Turner, Smith, Akinola, Mccready, Stanway, Ocholi and Owens on existing deals at the club so their wages won't have increased by much or by an unknown amount.

How much more are Mitchell, Milne, McMillan, Muirhead, Fitzpatrick, Lawless, Dowds, Mullen, MacKinnon and Hodson costing compared to Foster, Bell, Mayo, Jackubiak/Rudden, McKenna, Gordon, Niang, Crawford, Hastie, Hendrie and McAllister?

Is the difference on about 10 players wages really £600k? That would mean there were getting an extra £60k than the person they were replacing and we're paying most of them around £100k p.a. That just doesn't seem possible. 

I would love to hear where the money has gone at the club. My suspicion is quite a lot was spent on Jlow and pals vanity projects.  On the last few accounts the head count of non-playing staff looked very high when compared to pre-Jlow championship seasons. Who are the extra people? What value do they bring? Were some of the directors getting paid either directly on indirectly by the club? 

I think we have to look at costs not related to the First Team as an overall % of the budget 

[watties wallies]

2 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The shortfall had been halved due to the Rangers Game 

but was Doolan given the financial status of the club when offered the job

[Barney Rubble]

5 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

We finished 4th and could have finished 6th if results had gone against us 

There was not a massive change under Dools in results average during the Season 

play offs were obviously a different matter 

 

 

 

McCall - 33 points from 23 games = 1.435 points per game (by extrapolation 52 points over 36 games)

Doolan - 24 points from 13 games = 1.846 points per game (by extrapolation 66 points over 36 games)

The extrapolations are clearly hypothetical. However to suggest - as you do JJ - that there was not a massive change in average results performance under Kris Doolan is simply not borne out by the facts.

[Fawlty Towers]

10 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Thats not £600k though ? 

I don't think I said it was. I was just looking at things that were obvious, you would know better than I the main costs in running PTFC. There is the football side, the stadium costs and other "bits and pieces". I would assume also that like most households the club's utility bills will have jumped up. How we overspent by that amount though my small brain cannot comprehend.

[laukat]

17 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

I think we have to look at costs not related to the First Team as an overall % of the budget 

Agree, I'm having issues accessing the previous account on the HMRC site but from what I can remember of previous years it doesn't really do that. The only real numbers that showed some indicators was the playing staff and non-playing staff headcount.

Given the board now recognise TJF can understand accounts it would be really useful if TJF could give some analysis on where the extra money was spent and a suggested plan of how it could be brought in line?

[Alb]

2 hours ago, Yellow & Redneck said:

I don't know if I'm alone, but I'm certainly starting to feel quite resentful of the club. It seems as if previous boards (and I include the inept Gerry Britton in this) were happy to financially mismanage and roll the dice knowing that out gullable fans would bail them out again if it all went wrong. 

The fans of most clubs are there to supplement income generated by the board. But once again we are the ones expected to bail out the mistakes of others (and I do believe that those responsible knew we would). 

I just wonder how long the good will of the fans will last before they decide that it shouldn't be their responsibility to rescue the club once every five years. 

(Obviously, the fan ownership model concerns me at time like this where we need investment). 

So, without going into the wrongs or rights, and remembering there are two sides to every story. The recent news and releases could also be perceived as the old board knew about the projected loss, but had funds in place to cover most/all of it....but when they were ousted, strangely that money was not forthcoming which has left the big hole that's currently there. 

[Lambies Lost Doo]

More positive news.  Fans are stepping up to help get the club back in the black

https://twitter.com/Jags_Foundation/status/1666563562116972545?t=A7fDmAC4-XJKnGxFPibn1w&s=19

 

[stolenscone]

15 minutes ago, Alb said:

So, without going into the wrongs or rights, and remembering there are two sides to every story. The recent news and releases could also be perceived as the old board knew about the projected loss, but had funds in place to cover most/all of it....but when they were ousted, strangely that money was not forthcoming which has left the big hole that's currently there. 

I guess that's possible, but since none of the previous board had put any of their own money into the club in previous years, it would seem unlikely that that was about to change. 

[stolenscone]

36 minutes ago, laukat said:

Given the board now recognise TJF can understand accounts it would be really useful if TJF could give some analysis on where the extra money was spent and a suggested plan of how it could be brought in line?

That level of detail would not be available from the published accounts. 

[eljaggo]

First of all let's be quite clear that Gerry Britton is an administrator and is not responsible for the decisions that have affected the financial plight of the Club.  That responsiblilty lies fair and square with the Board.

It would be very helpful to the discussion and future actions if a detailed cash flow statement that covered the last 3 years could be calculated and made available to the fans.  Perhaps the previous Board operated on the understanding that they had access to additional funding (perhaps from the Weir family). Who knows?

It would also be helpful if a projected 1 year cash flow could be published that included capital items such as maintenance and repair.

The discussion on the future of the Club is hampered by a lack of information, and unless that is addressed, I suspect that fans will be reluctant to respond for additional help.

Edited June 8, 2023 by eljaggo

[exiledjag]

With Tiffoney going to Dundee, Killie talking to Docherty, earlier rumours of Sneddon going to another Championship club and just having read on this thread that Turner is likely to go as well the squad is really starting to break up. God help Doolan.

Nevertheless I shall be buying a season ticket  on Friday (last bought one 2 years ago) and will be at Firhill for as many games next season as I can physically manage.

Wonder how the people who created this financial situation sleep at night.