Tranche 2 & the Preservation of Power

[Jordanhill Jag]

7 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I asked you previously if you had looked at the accounts of Championship clubs. If you did you would see that virtually none of them can operate at a profit or without ongoing support from somewhere.

The world has changed since we got promoted. Promoted clubs in the last 10 years overspent in hundreds of thousands.

With a properly run non Football overhead we could be running at near breakeven - and not affect the Players Budget 

We are talking about taking out circa £250K from our Non Players Budget overhead   - that's achievable 

 

Edited November 13, 2024 by Jordanhill Jag

[Jordanhill Jag]

Just now, Lenziejag said:

Where are you taking that from ? Bearing in mind that a fair chunk of that overhead is going to be locked into contracts. I would think with that level of cut you are bringing the club to a standstill.

£150K of Savings will not bring the Club to a Standstill - even £200K will not affect our ability to carry out our core management requirements  

[Jordanhill Jag]

10 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I asked you previously if you had looked at the accounts of Championship clubs. If you did you would see that virtually none of them can operate at a profit or without ongoing support from somewhere.

The world has changed since we got promoted. Promoted clubs in the last 10 years overspent in hundreds of thousands.

Players Costs may have changed since we were last promoted 

But the amount of resource to run the Non Football parts of the Club has not 

And we now are averaging 1000 More Fans at each Home Game - from the last time we were promoted 

Edited November 13, 2024 by Jordanhill Jag

[Lenziejag]

4 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

We are not interested in "other clubs" we are interested in PTFC 

Without Tranche 2 we will struggle to pay our debts end of this Season ie we could go bust  

We Run at significant losses each Year 

There is No Plan to stop the losses - so they will continue 

The odds of getting continuing funding to shore up the losses are unlikely 

So what do you suggest ?  

 

It wasn’t me that introduced other clubs. I have just shown just how ridiculous an exercise it was.

I suggest that you go along to that open meeting in a couple of weeks time and articulate your concerns the way you do on here.

[Lenziejag]

6 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

With a properly run non Football overhead we could be running at near breakeven - and not affect the Players Budget 

We are talking about taking out circa £250K from our Non Players Budget overhead   - that's achievable 

 

You are just saying words with nothing to back it up.

[Jordanhill Jag]

18 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

You are just saying words with nothing to back it up.

Actually I'm not - I clearly stated - based on past experience and looking at our Non Football Squad overhead 

Obviously doing a quick Calc of where we could make Cuts - without stopping core functions - you requested a number & I gave you one 

Obviously I don't have access to the Management Accounts - so its an estimate ( based on past experience & direct experience of running a Business in Construction for 28 Years ) 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

25 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

It wasn’t me that introduced other clubs. I have just shown just how ridiculous an exercise it was.

I suggest that you go along to that open meeting in a couple of weeks time and articulate your concerns the way you do on here.

Why ? 

Nothing is going  to change - only TJF can change things - and they are backing Tranche 2 and the Board 100% - the Meeting & the Vote is simply Window Dressing - No one is going to Vote to put the Club out of Business 

There will be no EGM - where its a formal Vote on Tranche 2 - it will be shuffled into the AGM - and as our current Chairman stated - Published Accounts do not provide enough info for Due Diligence 

Only TJF can carry out Due Diligence 

I'm pointing out ( as I have done for 12 Months ) without a change in Direction and without a Change in Board Personnel - we will go bust   

[Tom Hosie]

37 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

 

And we now are averaging 1000 More Fans at each Home Game - from the last time we were promoted 

No we aren't. 

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 minutes ago, Tom Hosie said:

No we aren't. 

Ok - that was a guess - but a Good Crowd in the past was 3000 including away fans ? 

Now we are nearer 4000 

Obviously we had the Morton Game of nearly 9000 - which would have propped up the average ? 

[Tom Hosie]

9 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Ok - that was a guess - but a Good Crowd in the past was 3000 including away fans ? 

Now we are nearer 4000 

Obviously we had the Morton Game of nearly 9000 - which would have propped up the average ? 

We are not averaging 1,000 more than we were when we last won the Championship. 

If using stats to support an argument it's best to verify them first. 

Leaves you open to people potentially wondering what other summations may not stand up to greater scrutiny. 

[Jordanhill Jag]

39 minutes ago, Tom Hosie said:

We are not averaging 1,000 more than we were when we last won the Championship. 

If using stats to support an argument it's best to verify them first. 

Leaves you open to people potentially wondering what other summations may not stand up to greater scrutiny. 

Well as Ive already gone at lengths to point out - all Financial info I used in my opening post came from the Club 

they then in essence confirmed what I was arguing was correct by stating we will struggle to pay our debts this Season 

So “ wonder away” the simple fact is we are spending more than we bring in - but lots of people seem to be comfortable with the status quo - I wonder why ? 

[Woodstock Jag]

We should replace the Seville Calculator with the Alexander Abacus.

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

We should replace the Seville Calculator with the Alexander Abacus.

No probs - Crowds are up 500 

Deflect away 

but it doesn't change the fact we are running up large losses / no plan to stop them -and will struggle to pay our debts this Season 

Pretty much which Ive been saying for 12 Months but was told “ I didn't understand business “ 

 

[Woodstock Jag]

5 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

No probs - Crowds are up 500 

400.

Alexander Abacus still poorly calibrated I see.

[Norgethistle]

The projected loss is half of what it was previously, that’s moving in the correct direction.

Could it move faster? With a blank canvas, ie not having historic commercial deals still running that we could get more money for now yes.

If ground maintenance had been kept up previously, Yes.

We don’t have a blank canvas we are trying to balance soon, but you need cash flow to buy that time, that’s what Tranche 2 does, it gives cash flow, and a safety net cash sum in a high interest account.

It also allows greater controls on spend as part of the agreement.

Where would you save £280k from Jim mid season if not from playing staff?

[Jordanhill Jag]

17 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

The projected loss is half of what it was previously, that’s moving in the correct direction.

Could it move faster? With a blank canvas, ie not having historic commercial deals still running that we could get more money for now yes.

If ground maintenance had been kept up previously, Yes.

We don’t have a blank canvas we are trying to balance soon, but you need cash flow to buy that time, that’s what Tranche 2 does, it gives cash flow, and a safety net cash sum in a high interest account.

It also allows greater controls on spend as part of the agreement.

Where would you save £280k from Jim mid season if not from playing staff?

Please stop inventing numbers - the loss at the end of Season 22/23 was £350K not £600K - the Rangers Game was luck - but the current Board would take the same luck and use the money 

why are you going on about Commercial Deals going to solve your problem ?

First you have no idea if they can be replaced

- Second you have no idea if you will get better terms - thats just Pie in the Sky rubbish to give the impression there is a Plan - there isnt

the Board knew of the Ground Maintenance requirements when the set the Budgets last Year / they had forecasted break even taking Ground Maintenance into consideration - again stop trying to defend this shambles 

As a starter - when they forecast a loss of £280K with only £75K in the bank Months ago - you stop spending money on staff outwith the Playing Squad - you start making cuts - look for efficiencies instead they kept spending money -we did not have 

TJF allowed all of this to happen - its there responsibility to take required steps to correct the large losses continuing or we will go bust 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2024 by Jordanhill Jag

[Jordanhill Jag]

25 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said:

400.

Alexander Abacus still poorly calibrated I see.

TJF Fingers and Toes - agreeing a £280k forecast loss with £75K in Cash Reserves and saying it will be ok 

[Tom Hosie]

18 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Well as Ive already gone at lengths to point out - all Financial info I used in my opening post came from the Club 

they then in essence confirmed what I was arguing was correct by stating we will struggle to pay our debts this Season 

So “ wonder away” the simple fact is we are spending more than we bring in - but lots of people seem to be comfortable with the status quo - I wonder why ? 

I see you are continuing to theorise on what people's views are without having anything to support your theory. 

I can only speak for myself of course, but I suspect I'm no different from most Thistle fans in that I have a great number of views on a great number of subjects relating to Partick Thistle. 

You should read nothing into me choosing not to share those views on here. Or engage in what passes for reasoned, balanced debate with you. It's an utterly pointless exercise. 

As a general point any argument loses credibility when it is backed up by statistics that are demonstrably inaccurate. 

Just as any argument loses credibility through needless repetition. 

You should take it as given that everyone engaging on this thread has read the statement put out by the Club. There is no need to ask if they have. 

For the avoidance of doubt there is no need to repeat the same point in every response. Especially when it is unrelated to the point being made. 

And finally, how an argument is presented can be very important. An argument without randomised capital letters, with basic words spelt correctly just looks more credible and less like, well less like someone incoherently ranting away. 

 

[Tom Hosie]

3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Please stop inventing numbers 

 

 

What like we are averaging more than 1,000 at the gate than we did the last time we won the Championship? 

[Jordanhill Jag]

Just now, Tom Hosie said:

I see you are continuing to theorise on what people's views are without having anything to support your theory. 

I can only speak for myself of course, but I suspect I'm no different from most Thistle fans in that I have a great number of views on a great number of subjects relating to Partick Thistle. 

You should read nothing into me choosing not to share those views on here. Or engage in what passes for reasoned, balanced debate with you. It's an utterly pointless exercise. 

As a general point any argument loses credibility when it is backed up by statistics that are demonstrably inaccurate. 

Just as any argument loses credibility through needless repetition. 

You should take it as given that everyone engaging on this thread has read the statement put out by the Club. There is no need to ask if they have. 

For the avoidance of doubt there is no need to repeat the same point in every response. Especially when it is unrelated to the point being made. 

And finally, how an argument is presented can be very important. An argument without randomised capital letters, with basic words spelt correctly just looks more credible and less like, well less like someone incoherently ranting away. 

 

Thanks for the English lesson Tom and advice on use of Social Media - as you are well aware - English was never my Forte - I can however look at numbers at see if they stack up and ours dont 

[Jordanhill Jag]

Just now, Tom Hosie said:

What like we are averaging more than 1,000 at the gate than we did the last time we won the Championship? 

Im i inventing the fact we cant pay our debts ? 

[Tom Hosie]

1 minute ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Im i inventing the fact we cant pay our debts ? 

You don't see the irony in you asking someone not to invent figures when you have just done precisely that? 

Are you really that lacking in self awareness? 

[Barney Rubble]

4 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Thanks for the English lesson Tom and advice on use of Social Media - as you are well aware - English was never my Forte - I can however look at numbers at see if they stack up and ours dont 

Spending less time looking at numbers - where your analysis is dodgy at best - and devoting time to achieving basic standards of English language construction might be a more constructive use of your time JJ..................

[Norgethistle]

3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Please stop inventing numbers - the loss at the end of Season 22/23 was £350K not £600K - the Rangers Game was luck - but the current Board would take the same luck and use the money 

why are you going on about Commercial Deals going to solve your problem ?

First you have no idea if they can be replaced

- Second you have no idea if you will get better terms - thats just Pie in the Sky rubbish to give the impression there is a Plan - there isnt

the Board knew of the Ground Maintenance requirements when the set the Budgets last Year / they had forecasted break even taking Ground Maintenance into consideration - again stop trying to defend this shambles 

As a starter - when they forecast a loss of £280K with only £75K in the bank Months ago - you stop spending money on staff outwith the Playing Squad - you start making cuts - look for efficiencies instead they kept spending money -we did not have 

TJF allowed all of this to happen - its there responsibility to take required steps to correct the large losses continuing or we will go bust 

 

 

Without the Rangers game we were £600k in the hole, we needed directors loans to get us through till ST money came in, those directors loans were repaid as Tranche 1 came in.

Ok we lay off ALL the admin staff, where do we find the other £40 or £50k and hope the office and club runs itself.

You were at the AGM the spend was presented and office staff was a minute spend compared to annual footballing wages (£1.7m) and just over half of the annual stadium running costs (over £400k)

As for commercial deals, that was also mentioned at AGM, which you also attended.

Whilst attendances may be up, how does the mix compare? If it’s more adults then great, if the demographic is moving to have more U18’s and more over 65’s and less adults then it’s a false marker.

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, Norgethistle said:

Without the Rangers game we were £600k in the hole, we needed directors loans to get us through till ST money came in, those directors loans were repaid as Tranche 1 came in.

Ok we lay off ALL the admin staff, where do we find the other £40 or £50k and hope the office and club runs itself.

You were at the AGM the spend was presented and office staff was a minute spend compared to annual footballing wages (£1.7m) and just over half of the annual stadium running costs (over £400k)

As for commercial deals, that was also mentioned at AGM, which you also attended.

Whilst attendances may be up, how does the mix compare? If it’s more adults then great, if the demographic is moving to have more U18’s and more over 65’s and less adults then it’s a false marker.

 

Where did I say we lay off all the office staff ? 
i said in response to Lenzie Jag that £150 to £200K of cost reductions are feasible without taking cash out of the playing squad Budget 

no one says its painless but going bust is a lot more final 

your comments on Crowds are correct 

but its been pointed put that Crowds are only up 400 since we last got promoted 

to run the Club - we had one Full Time Accounts person ( job share) Maxi as GM 

Amie doing press - commercial sales and hospitality sales 

and a YTS admin person 

now Maxi also had a Football input as well as GM  - Recruitment - Contracts - away game logistics etc 

Matchday was pretty much mainly cash throughout the Stadium 

So how come we managed to put Games on and recruit a Title Winning Team ?