Livi Friday Away

[eljaggo]

Having a sporting director plus two co-managers seems to me would be a bit overcrowded. 

There appears to be an assumption on here that Graham and Wilson are inextricably linked; that neither can survive at Thistle without the other.  The Board can appoint whoever they wish.

[fifexile]

2 hours ago, jlsarmy said:

Have they done enough ? , they’ve won 6 games out of the 15 they’ve been involved in .

Think the point being made is they deserve a chance with a fully fit squad. In 50+ seasons watching Thistle I can't remember one that had more players out injured. Look at the bench for the last month, 2 keepers and most of the rest were academy players.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

12 hours ago, laukat said:

I read it more as he knows he's not getting the job and is now making it public that he can't go back into a dressing room as a player. If he's being blatant or trying to make a power play on anything its about making it clear that he wants to be released from his playing contract.

However surely Barraclough and whoever else was involved in recruiting the new head coach knew that if Graham was passed over we lost him as a player? 

I struggle to think of any profession were a person in temporary charge and pursuing the job fulltime would be comfortable with being passed over and expected to return to normal duties?

Loads of interim roles in my world.  They get exposure but also more eork and same pay 

[Auld Jag]

3 hours ago, Tom Hosie said:

I think what we saw from Brian last night was real heart on the sleeve stuff. I thought his Jagszone interview in particular was very emotional.

I hated him when he played against us in as much as you can 'hate' someone you don't know. I always wanted to see him play for us though. 

He has been exceptional for us since he signed back in 2020. Look at his scoring record. The division's leading scorer the last two seasons. At the age of 36 and 37. That alone would be near impossible to replace. 

I've got to know him a bit over the years, primarily through my association with PTW. I'm not claiming to be his best pal or anything, popping round for cups of tea and a chat but I have seen what kind of person he is. How he is with other people. How important his family is to him as it with us all. 

He's a top, top person. One of the best I've known kicking about the sidelines at Partick Thistle. 

He's passionate and emotional. 

Sometimes that gets him into trouble on the pitch or in the technical area. 

He's also as honest as they come. 

One of his best traits with PTW is inspiring players to the very best they can be. Sometimes when they didn't believe it themselves. When we stepped up to SWPL1 there were some that didn't believe they could play at that level. One has just retired after doing just that for 4 seasons. 

Hey I don't really know where this word salad is going. It certainly not about last night's game - a shade unlucky to lose on the night but Livi clear and deserved winners of the tie - and might have been better posted in another thread (Admin help - oops). 

There's nothing he said last night that isn't true. There's that heart on the sleeve again. There's that honesty. 

I want him to be our next permanent manager. Iif he isn't I'll be 100% behind who ever is as I've always been but I think we're losing a lot if he isn't. 

 

Thanks for this insightful post and the follow up one you also posted. Makes a refreshing change from some of the other wildly speculative and hear say posts we also get on this forum.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Took over 6 points clear - finished 2 points clear by the Skin of our teeth 

playoffs - poor against Ayr at Firhill - Great against them at Somerset - not at the races against Livvy 

But he is a great guy so give him the Job - what he did as a Player - with PTWFC etc etc - his track record as manager is underwhelming 

but he will get the job -mediocrity is the Thistle way 

Giving zero latitude to the number of injury free first team players in comparison available to Graham/Wilson.  Giving zero latitude re not having Roberts, Robinson & Milne for the entirety of their spell as interim managers.

I'm not making a case for Graham only pointing out that above stats are just that, stats. 

[Jordanhill Jag]

3 minutes ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Giving zero latitude to the number of injury free first team players in comparison available to Graham/Wilson.  Giving zero latitude re not having Roberts, Robinson & Milne for the entirety of their spell as interim managers.

I'm not making a case for Graham only pointing out that above stats are just that, stats. 

Same could be argued for McCall lots of key players missing - but we still sacked him 

we were not at the Races against Livvy - either Game 

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Have a look at the quality of our team in the three league games leading up to McCall's sacking. Apart from a second half red card nothing in the way of mitigation.

[stolenscone]

I don't really get the negativity around Graham.  His record as a player for the club is amazing. You might argue the he misses a barrow load and that a lot of the goals are tap ins, but I can’t see that changes anything. 

He's clearly ambitious and has wanted the job from the moment he replaced Doolan. Again, I can't see that as a bad thing. Should we be looking for a manager who doesn't care either way?

All this can be true, but I would still prefer a new manager with no connection to the club. That's as much about what has gone before,  if I'm honest. After a string of internal appointments, I would prefer to see an entirely fresh start. Yes, we're all scarred by Caldwell and it might (or might not) be unfair on Graham, but whoever gets the job has a few years of rebuilding to do, and I hope we give them time.

[Jordanhill Jag]

2 hours ago, Tom Hosie said:

Just to expand on my earlier post and clear up some misunderstanding among those that may choose to misinterpret. 

I'm not suggesting that Brian Graham should be appointed manager soley because he is a good guy. That's ludicrous. Clearly. I think most people would realise that. The type of person someone is though will impact on their interpersonal skills which is a factor is assessing how they will man manage, so it's not entirely irrelevant either. 

The growth and development of PTW across the last 5 years is the primary body of work I have to form my personal assessment of Brian Graham as a potential manager of the men's team. I like how he's improved players. I like how the professionalism of the set up has improved, how the preparation has improved. I like how he is tactical aware and adaptable. 

The women's game and the men's game are different environments, the dynamic is different. What works in one environment doesn't necessarily translate to the other. 

There's a three month period though to assess Brian Graham (and Mark Wilson) with the men's squad. 

We were 4th when they took over and we finished 4th. 

They knew what they were getting in to when they took over. They didn't come into post blind, but I do feel they were dealt a difficult hand to play with. 

A reduced squad after January further hit by injury. You don't hire open topped buses for maintaining 4th position but equally I think getting that depleted squad over the line into the play-offs shouldn't be downplayed either. 

We've had players, injured players, putting their bodies on the line when perhaps they shouldn't have been playing. Many of you will have seen the pictures of Fitzpatrick's feet for example. That suggests to me that they are capable of inspiring and getting a squad to play for them. 

I like too Mark Wilson's connections with the Academy. That provides knowledge and trust in the players in that set up. Craig Dargo's role in that should be acknowledged too. 

The Club should, of course, explore all options available. I'm certain they will have done so. 

In my view they are a great number of very compelling arguments as to why Brian Graham should be appointed permanent manager. I hope he is. 

Hopefully that provides a little more substance to my earlier lengthy post. 

But if mEDocRIty iS tHe ThIStLe wAY is the way to interpret that I can't help that, just as I can't help influence who the next Thistle manager is. 

No more lengthy posts to follow. Will wait and see what happens and hopefully whoever is the next Thistle manager is a huge success. 

We were 6 points clear in 4th - finished 2 points clear last day of the Season with RR running us close 

on what basis is that progress that he should get the job ? 
 

His performance as Manager is mediocre - so appionting him as a “legend” simple confirms the mediocrity of our ambitions and the over- riding desire to maintain the Status Quo 

As for a few years of rebuilding - if thats the case - what has been going on for the last 2 Seasons ? 

 

Edited May 17 by Jordanhill Jag

[Tom Hosie]

Again, for the hard of understanding, nobody is suggesting that Brian Graham should be appointed manager on the basis of being a "legend". 

Why one poster in particular tries to constantly misrepresent what people have said is a mystery. 

Is it deliberate or just poor comprehension skills? 

[JeanieD]

For me, all the damage surrounding this mediocre season was done in those early games of the season when sendings off and conceding penalties seemed to be obligatory. The season was hobbled from then and injuries, inevitable suspensions and playing catch up from that point on was never going to have a great outcome. 
in six weeks time there will be the dawning of a new season - much work requires to be done in the interim if a repeat, as regards the disappointment of 2024/25, is to be avoided, in my view.

[Fawlty Towers]

5 minutes ago, JeanieD said:

For me, all the damage surrounding this mediocre season was done in those early games of the season when sendings off and conceding penalties seemed to be obligatory. The season was hobbled from then and injuries, inevitable suspensions and playing catch up from that point on was never going to have a great outcome. 
in six weeks time there will be the dawning of a new season - much work requires to be done in the interim if a repeat, as regards the disappointment of 2024/25, is to be avoided, in my view.

For me it goes back to pre season. A period with no CEO/GM in place, a lack of proper friendlies (why did anyone think a game against Glenafton plus a couple of bounce games would be sufficient) and what seemed like a scatter gun approach to recruitment did not give us the best opportunity to start well.

[Third Lanark]

7 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

For me it goes back to pre season. A period with no CEO/GM in place, a lack of proper friendlies (why did anyone think a game against Glenafton plus a couple of bounce games would be sufficient) and what seemed like a scatter gun approach to recruitment did not give us the best opportunity to start well.

I do recall Doolan saying in his pre season interview that last season he felt there were too many friendlies and this season he wanted to cut them back and use some of the league cup games that would help improve their fitness etc

[allyo]

36 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

We were 6 points clear in 4th - finished 2 points clear last day of the Season with RR running us close 

on what basis is that progress that he should get the job ? 
 

His performance as Manager is mediocre - so appionting him as a “legend” simple confirms the mediocrity of our ambitions and the over- riding desire to maintain the Status Quo 

As for a few years of rebuilding - if thats the case - what has been going on for the last 2 Seasons ? 

 

The 6 points versus 2 points comparison is very disingenuous. Completely ignores the fact that other teams had games in hand and we probably weren't favourites to make top four when they took over. Also ignores how the form of other teams (in this case Raith Rovers) affects the points needed to qualify.

Points per game ratio improved, under difficult circumstances with injuries and taking over a team low on confidence.

Again, I'm not trying to make a case either, just trying to provide balance and context.

Edited May 17 by allyo

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, allyo said:

The 6 points versus 2 points comparison is very disingenuous. Completely ignores the fact that other teams had games in hand and we probably weren't favourites to make top four when they took over. Also ignores how the form if other team (in this case Raith Rovers) affects the points needed to qualify.

Points per game ratio improved, under difficult circumstances with injuries and taking over a team low on confidence.

Again, I'm not trying to make a case either, just trying to provide balance and context.

So in short - nothing much changed after they took over - dools would have probs done about the same 

[allyo]

Who knows. Complete speculation 

[ChiThistle]

The sackings are less to do with position than momentum/form, right?

It’s not a question of “you’re in 4th and we budgeted for 4th so you’re fine”.

[scotty]

1 hour ago, Tom Hosie said:

Again, for the hard of understanding, nobody is suggesting that Brian Graham should be appointed manager on the basis of being a "legend". 

Why one poster in particular tries to constantly misrepresent what people have said is a mystery. 

Is it deliberate or just poor comprehension skills? 

Or just blind attachment to a pal who is they think is the only person who could possibly manage Thistle.

[Albert's Ghost]

2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

We were 6 points clear in 4th - finished 2 points clear last day of the Season with RR running us close 

on what basis is that progress that he should get the job ? 
 

His performance as Manager is mediocre - so appionting him as a “legend” simple confirms the mediocrity of our ambitions and the over- riding desire to maintain the Status Quo 

As for a few years of rebuilding - if thats the case - what has been going on for the last 2 Seasons ? 

 

Name your choice then.  Or STFU.

[Winter of '63]

2 hours ago, lady-isobel-barnett said:

Have a look at the quality of our team in the three league games leading up to McCall's sacking. Apart from a second half red card nothing in the way of mitigation.

I distinctly recall swithering about leaving the house after seeing the team for the Hamilton game - Graham, Dowds, Tiffoney & Lawless all out injured leaving Fitzpatrick & Mullen as our only forward options - I didn't think we would score and we didn't. Unlike some, I have long since got over McCall's sacking.

My main take from this season is that the so many games were just plain dull & boring. A distinct change in approach may well be what is needed but I would distinctly prefer Graham as manager to Imrie whose main achievement is apparently not getting his team relegated.

[CotterJag]

I'd be more than happy if the two current co-managers got the job(s).

I've seen and heard enough to support that choice and their enthusiasm for the club is clear.

Grahams leadership on the field has never been in doubt, as far as I'm concerned and it would feel like a massive mis-step and merciless quite honestly, if we just 'ditched' them at this stage.

The treatment of McCall might not sit well with many of us but that is no reason to do the same to others.

[laukat]

2 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

We were 6 points clear in 4th - finished 2 points clear last day of the Season with RR running us close 

on what basis is that progress that he should get the job ? 
 

His performance as Manager is mediocre - so appionting him as a “legend” simple confirms the mediocrity of our ambitions and the over- riding desire to maintain the Status Quo 

As for a few years of rebuilding - if thats the case - what has been going on for the last 2 Seasons ? 

 

Graham & Wilson took over after we lost 3-0 away to Raith. 

Doolan had pretty much the same squad as Graham between January 1st and the Raith game and picked up 1 point from 5 games which meant a 0.2ppg (Arguably Doolan had a stronger squad as he still had Milne until the start of February)

Over the course of Doolan's 24 games in charge this season he got 35 points for 1.45ppg. Had he continued we would have got 52 points and finished 5th. If We exclude the period from January to February as Doolan had by then lost a couple of his squad his ppg is still only around 1.68ppg which would have been comfortable for 4th but nowhere near promotion.

Under Graham & Wilson won 6, drew 3 and lost 2 to get to the playoffs which was 21 points from 11 games or 1.91ppg

So that's either an increase of almost half a point per game on Doolan or an increase of almost 2 points per game when they had reasonably comparable squads. Falkirk won the league with 1.94ppg so Graham & Wilson were getting close to league winning results with a squad that wasn't theirs.

 It could be argued that Graham & Wilson had a new manager's bounce from end of February through March and that the run against Airdrie, Hamilton and to a lesser degree Dunfermline was a return to type. However they then arrest the decline and get a injury ravaged squad to beat the top 3 teams in the league. That's a pretty tall order and they did it.

Then there's the subjective evidence of what we all witnessed. Suddenly we had a management team who changed formation and tactics to try and get results. Something that was missing under Archibald, Caldwell, McCall etc. We also had for the first time in a long time a management team who would make a substitution to try and win games rather than making substitutions when we were a goal down trying to turn it around.

So there is evidence in the numbers that Graham & Wilson had done a very good job with someone else's squad, were substantially better than Doolan and were getting results that would have put us closer to promotion had they had a full season. I doubt we'll get to find out what they could do with their own squad.

[Third Lanark]

16 minutes ago, laukat said:

Graham & Wilson took over after we lost 3-0 away to Raith. 

Doolan had pretty much the same squad as Graham between January 1st and the Raith game and picked up 1 point from 5 games which meant a 0.2ppg (Arguably Doolan had a stronger squad as he still had Milne until the start of February)

Over the course of Doolan's 24 games in charge this season he got 35 points for 1.45ppg. Had he continued we would have got 52 points and finished 5th. If We exclude the period from January to February as Doolan had by then lost a couple of his squad his ppg is still only around 1.68ppg which would have been comfortable for 4th but nowhere near promotion.

Under Graham & Wilson won 6, drew 3 and lost 2 to get to the playoffs which was 21 points from 11 games or 1.91ppg

So that's either an increase of almost half a point per game on Doolan or an increase of almost 2 points per game when they had reasonably comparable squads. Falkirk won the league with 1.94ppg so Graham & Wilson were getting close to league winning results with a squad that wasn't theirs.

 It could be argued that Graham & Wilson had a new manager's bounce from end of February through March and that the run against Airdrie, Hamilton and to a lesser degree Dunfermline was a return to type. However they then arrest the decline and get a injury ravaged squad to beat the top 3 teams in the league. That's a pretty tall order and they did it.

Then there's the subjective evidence of what we all witnessed. Suddenly we had a management team who changed formation and tactics to try and get results. Something that was missing under Archibald, Caldwell, McCall etc. We also had for the first time in a long time a management team who would make a substitution to try and win games rather than making substitutions when we were a goal down trying to turn it around.

So there is evidence in the numbers that Graham & Wilson had done a very good job with someone else's squad, were substantially better than Doolan and were getting results that would have put us closer to promotion had they had a full season. I doubt we'll get to find out what they could do with their own squad.

A very good job is for me an exaggeration.  They have done okay- some good results and some bad.  They didn’t come in completely fresh as Graham would have known the players and their strengths and Weaknesses at that time even if he couldn’t sign players.

We also only won one of the 4 playoff games.  For all the plaudits given by fans to us against Livingston- did their keeper even have a save to make in the 2 games.

Okay but to say they have been excellent and I don’t think they have did any better than Doolan when he took over in his interim period when McCall was sacked

[Emsca]

1 hour ago, Albert's Ghost said:

Name your choice then.  Or STFU.

Do you really need to ask ?

[JeanieD]

3 hours ago, Fawlty Towers said:

For me it goes back to pre season. A period with no CEO/GM in place, a lack of proper friendlies (why did anyone think a game against Glenafton plus a couple of bounce games would be sufficient) and what seemed like a scatter gun approach to recruitment did not give us the best opportunity to start well.

FT

i cannot disagree with your assessment - indeed looking back our lack of preparation was ruthlessly exposed as early as the Clyde defeat which predates the early season penalty/sendings off fiascos!