Albert's Ghost Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 3 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: The Thistle Trust own the Shares - TJF are a Trustee of the Thistle Trust How she came about the Shares is of No Relevance - Colin Weir obviously trusted her What is Relevant is that a Near identical Shareholding - gets a Place on the Board ad infinitum - preference Shares & numerous powers of Veto over Club Decisions - and as a Club Shareholder that doesn't look like an equitable arrangement As for FanBoy - I held Jacqui Low to task on various occasions at AGMs The Point is what 8% Buys regards influence at the Club OK "fanboy" was a cheap shot - my apologies for that. According to Woodstock Jag, Jacqui's shares were left to her in Colin's will, so fair enough. Donald (and his pals) pumped £1m into the club, and in return they were issued pro rata shares and Donald got a place on the board. You seem to have a problem with that but it's not very clear why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 1 minute ago, Albert's Ghost said: OK "fanboy" was a cheap shot - my apologies for that. According to Woodstock Jag, Jacqui's shares were left to her in Colin's will, so fair enough. Donald (and his pals) pumped £1m into the club, and in return they were issued pro rata shares and Donald got a place on the board. You seem to have a problem with that but it's not very clear why. Donald has 8% - Same as Jlo No issue with his place on the Board However - there is No Right of Removal by the Board or the Majority of Shareholders ~ its guaranteed for as long as he wishes ( which is highly unusual for a Minority Shareholder ) ~ and I'm not aware of any other Club with a similar arrangement for a Minority Shareholder - He has Right of Veto on Numerous Decisions - even if the Board & the Majority Shareholder Vote for them ( again highly unusual for a Minority Shareholder ) ~ and I'm not aware of any other Club with a similar arrangement for a Minority Shareholder - the 20% Shares that were sold are Preference ie they are first in line for getting there Money Back if the Club went bust - which puts them in a unique position on multiple levels 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 I was about to say the Club won't go bust, but that would just start you off again, so I won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 41 minutes ago, Albert's Ghost said: I was about to say the Club won't go bust, but that would just start you off again, so I won't. Really ? The Club nearly went bust three Seasons ago and if it wasn't for a Significant unsecured Loan from a former Chairman - supported by another Board Member- we would have quite literally run out of Cash Last Season we ran up Record Debts without adequate Cash Reserves to cover them ~ again Running Out of Cash a distinct possibility - we were bailed out by selling off 10% of the Club Shares ( which were eaten up by the Debt) So in Two of the last Three Seasons we have needed external funding via Loans & selling Off Assets to prevent us going bust This Season we relied on the Cup Money to balance the Budget So I'm not sure what numbers your looking at but - but going bust has been a distinct Threat for the last Few Seasons To be Successful on the Park - you have to have a well run Club off it - to fund a decent Squad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 As I said - that would have started you off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 1 hour ago, Albert's Ghost said: As I said - that would have started you off. You made a statement that the Club would not go bust - its totally incorrect -our Finances for some time have been a Carcrash perhaps direct your ire at those who have created the mess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 5 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said: You made a statement that the Club would not go bust - its totally incorrect -our Finances for some time have been a Carcrash perhaps direct your ire at those who have created the mess I didn't make that statement, as that would have started you off. Do keep up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delurker Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 3 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Says Who ? It was as much as a Fan Group as The Jags Trust Nonsense. The Jags Trust was a (moribund) organisation created by fans and still elected and run by fans. The PTFC Trust as it was re-worked by JLo was a collection of her placemen, hastily assembled to receive the shares, then presented to a bemused and enraged fanbase as 'meet your new owners'. Beastall said at the time 'we elected ourselves'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 1 hour ago, delurker said: Nonsense. The Jags Trust was a (moribund) organisation created by fans and still elected and run by fans. The PTFC Trust as it was re-worked by JLo was a collection of her placemen, hastily assembled to receive the shares, then presented to a bemused and enraged fanbase as 'meet your new owners'. Beastall said at the time 'we elected ourselves'. When was the last time The Jags Trust held an election ? Who decides who sits on there Board ~ who is actually on there Board ( seems like they "elect themselves" ) This is your opinion ref The PTFC Trust ~ however it was deemed the Model closest to Colin Weirs wishes by the Person who he gave Control of the Shares to ( + gifted her personally 8% ) + his Lawyer Now ultimately they decided TJF were not to get Control - nor were The Jags Trust even mentioned So what we have is a set up that was not the intended model of Fan Ownership ( according to those Colin Weir trusted to pass over the Shares ) Nor has this particular Model moved the Club forwards one inch from the Jlo Board - on the Park & Financially - but they have sold 20% of the Shares Gifted by Colin Weir - which in Asset Terms is roughly the Bing - which he bought from Propco & was sold again almost immediately If Beastall "elected" himself ~ then TJF decided they were imposing there version of Fan Ownership with Minority backing of the Fans - and have kept tight control ever since - with very little to show for it as a Club in real terms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 9 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Donald has 8% - Same as Jlo No issue with his place on the Board However - there is No Right of Removal by the Board or the Majority of Shareholders ~ its guaranteed for as long as he wishes ( which is highly unusual for a Minority Shareholder ) ~ and I'm not aware of any other Club with a similar arrangement for a Minority Shareholder Tony Bloom at Hearts. As explained by the Foundation of Hearts at the time. You're welcome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: If Beastall "elected" himself ~ then TJF decided they were imposing there version of Fan Ownership with Minority backing of the Fans - and have kept tight control ever since - with very little to show for it as a Club in real terms “Minority backing of the fans” give yer heid a wobble, they have over 1900 paying members, that’s hardly minority Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 (edited) 1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said: Tony Bloom at Hearts. As explained by the Foundation of Hearts at the time. You're welcome. Nearly 30% of the Club ( not 8%) No Voting Rights - Unlike the deal that we did No Right of Veto on key decisions And Tony Bloom brings one of the most advanced recruitment strategies in Modern Football as part of the package which has helped put Hearts top of the Premier and your seriously suggesting our deal is remotely comparable grasping at straws there methinks Edited April 30 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted April 30 Report Share Posted April 30 Just now, Norgethistle said: “Minority backing of the fans” give yer heid a wobble, they have over 1900 paying members, that’s hardly minority At the time when TJF took over the Shares it was not 1900 - and we have a Fanbase of circa 4000 Three Years later its still not 2000 - despite allowing Youngsters to join. And The Jags Trust had been inactive for Years and as Ive said - those responsible for carrying out Colin Weirs wishes did not want TJF to get Control of the Shares Three Seasons under Fan Ownership we are no further forwards as a Club - Finances not much better - and we made the playoffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenziejag Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 10 hours ago, Woodstock Jag said: Tony Bloom at Hearts. As explained by the Foundation of Hearts at the time. You're welcome. I think it is fair to say though that Tony Bloom’s position is to avoid contravening any of Uefa’s controlling interest conflicts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norgethistle Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 (edited) 9 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: At the time when TJF took over the Shares it was not 1900 - and we have a Fanbase of circa 4000 Three Years later its still not 2000 - despite allowing Youngsters to join. And The Jags Trust had been inactive for Years and as Ive said - those responsible for carrying out Colin Weirs wishes did not want TJF to get Control of the Shares Three Seasons under Fan Ownership we are no further forwards as a Club - Finances not much better - and we made the playoffs Jags Foundation was due to get shares till they pressed to do financial due diligence, then they were called “not fit or proper” and The PTFC TRUST was gerrymandered to be a puppet recipient of fan ownership Foundation of Hearts have 8000 members from a support nearly 3 times that The Well Society have 2500 members from nearly 8000 season ticket holders 1900 TJF members from a support of around 4000 I think is a bloody good ratio. Edited May 1 by Norgethistle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 10 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: Nearly 30% of the Club ( not 8%) No Voting Rights - Unlike the deal that we did No Right of Veto on key decisions And Tony Bloom brings one of the most advanced recruitment strategies in Modern Football as part of the package which has helped put Hearts top of the Premier and your seriously suggesting our deal is remotely comparable grasping at straws there methinks You’re shifting the goalposts here. Your original claim was, and I quote, “highly unusual” for a specific minority shareholder to be given a guaranteed right to sit on a football club board. I could also have pointed out that even after Foundation of Hearts became the majority shareholder, Anne Budge also retained such a right under the Bidco Agreement they had. It is therefore surprising that you claim you are “not aware of any other Club with a similar arrangement for a Minority Shareholder” when there are high profile examples of it, and at that at another Scottish fan-owned club. I could also mention St Mirren, where the main minority shareholder was also given not one but two guaranteed nominees under its equivalent of the Club-Trust Agreement. Notable minority shareholders who have invested financially don’t just rarely get guaranteed representation on the boards of majority fan owned football clubs; it is a common situation and typically a consequence of blending fan ownership with the need for private capital. If your beef is with the other rights attaching to the main Class C shareholder, just say so. TJF have often said that, all other things being equal, we would have preferred a deal that didn’t involve dilution of voting share capital. But board representation, the specific point you made, is a clear red herring, because minority shareholders get board seats, either through special classes of shareholders or through shareholder agreements, almost routinely. It’s part and parcel of many small and medium sized businesses. There is of course another important difference between Donald’s shareholding and Tony Bloom’s, and that’s that no one involved ever actually expects that Donald (or others who invested alongside him) will get his (or their) money back, himself included. While his shares are in theory redeemable if we sell Ben Stanway to Barcelona for £3 million, in practice the Club is unlikely to be in a position to trigger the redemption any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 55 minutes ago, Lenziejag said: I think it is fair to say though that Tony Bloom’s position is to avoid contravening any of Uefa’s controlling interest conflicts. I don’t follow at all. This explains why his shares are non-voting shares. It doesn’t explain why he gets the right to join the Hearts board or to nominate someone else to it. Just like Donald has at Thistle and just like Kibble (for two positions) does at St Mirren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 19 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: While his shares are in theory redeemable if we sell Ben Stanway to Barcelona for £3 million, in practice the Club is unlikely to be in a position to trigger the redemption any time soon. Only £3 million? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Albert's Ghost said: Only £3 million? I picked that number a bit out of the air but obviously: (a) Barcelona should pay £65 million minimum (b) the Class C shares are only redeemable on the excess of a cash balance in a set of accounts above £2 million So a £2 million profit would mean they could (in theory) start to be paid back, but to get Donald back below the threshold and so where he would lose his automatic right to a board seat, you’d need to redeem more than half of the Class C shares (so in practice to be more than £3 million in the black). Edited May 1 by Woodstock Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delurker Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 1 hour ago, Norgethistle said: Jags Foundation was due to get shares till they pressed to do financial due diligence, then they were called “not fit or proper” and The PTFC TRUST was gerrymandered to be a puppet recipient of fan ownership Foundation of Hearts have 8000 members from a support nearly 3 times that The Well Society have 2500 members from nearly 8000 season ticket holders 1900 TJF members from a support of around 4000 I think is a bloody good ratio. Out of likes, spot on. The straw-clutching trying to denigrate TJF as 'not representative enough' is ludicrous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 9 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: I picked that number a bit out of the air but obviously: (a) Barcelona should pay £65 million minimum (b) the Class C shares are only redeemable on the excess of a cash balance in a set of accounts above £2 million So a £2 million profit would mean they could (in theory) start to be paid back, but to get Donald back below the threshold and so where he would lose his automatic right to a board seat, you’d need to redeem more than half of the Class C shares (so in practice to be more than £3 million in the black). Surely we'd blow the £65 million on Ben's replacement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delurker Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 17 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said: When was the last time The Jags Trust held an election ? I briefly joined it a couple of years ago, to see what it was all about. During that time, I received info for an election of office bearers. Don't remember who stood or who I voted for, but it happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 2 minutes ago, Albert's Ghost said: Surely we'd blow the £65 million on Ben's replacement? Replacement ? Irreplaceable ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delurker Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 39 minutes ago, Woodstock Jag said: This explains why his shares are non-voting shares. UEFA set the 30% ceiling also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert's Ghost Posted May 1 Report Share Posted May 1 1 minute ago, Dick Dastardly said: Replacement ? Irreplaceable ! True - and in fact we should blow £66 million just for the lolz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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