The Wrong Type of Democracy

[JeanieD]

This whole debate is beginning to become a less interesting replay of the “knicker wetter/happy clappy” arguments that plagued the site back in the day.

Can we not try to agree to disagree instead of this nauseating back and forth between individuals one of whom thinks the current structure of club ownership is fine and dandy and another who finds it unpalatable in the extreme.

The seeming, and oft repeated, passing off of opinion as fact is like something from a primary school playground (or even worse Holyrood or Westminister).

[madcapmilkdrinker]

17 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

No it comes from Fans - not TJF - they just so happen to be the conduint

But take away Cup Runs take away the Handouts we don't balance the books   

Tranche 2 Cash Reserves - squandered - that's on TJF   

I think it’s disingenuous at best and malicious at worst to say that the funding provided to the club by fans has nothing to do with TJF. Without TJF there is nowhere near that level of investment from everyday supporters like this nomad who’s been to precisely six Thistle games in 51 years of supporting them.

If your objective is to have the club better run then you should get involved. To spend this much time and energy posting without actually doing anything meaningful to help the club makes you seem like someone prepared to damage the whole place because one of your friends noses got put out of joint at some stage. 

[Jordanhill Jag]

15 minutes ago, madcapmilkdrinker said:

I think it’s disingenuous at best and malicious at worst to say that the funding provided to the club by fans has nothing to do with TJF. Without TJF there is nowhere near that level of investment from everyday supporters like this nomad who’s been to precisely six Thistle games in 51 years of supporting them.

If your objective is to have the club better run then you should get involved. To spend this much time and energy posting without actually doing anything meaningful to help the club makes you seem like someone prepared to damage the whole place because one of your friends noses got put out of joint at some stage. 

There has been funding via our Fans from different forms all the way back to the 800 Club therefore Fans have always been willing to contribute - it happens to be TJF but there is nothing unique and its the norm for any Club - there is therefore nothing disingenuous or malicious from stating what is a norm 

As for "damaging the whole place" actually I think you will find that the Board with TJF Backing are more than capable of doing that without my assistance - £1MN of investment squandered & record losses - a Board who refuse to answer questions on the Record losses at the AGM - in effect blaming it on one person 

I had mentioned the removal of Alastair Creevy as an example of the closed shop mentality that if your not linked to the inner circle and try and make changes - your removed - prior to Alastair Creevy being removed I had never met nor spoken to him - so again your statement is wrong 

So no one is "damaging" anything - I suggest you aske pertinent questions on accountability & responsibility of the huge losses and squandered cash ~ these things were obvious to anyone that read what the financial statements were being made  

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

But you are repeating the same points endlessly which you have done on multiple occasions previously, there isn’t a lot new in what you are saying.

you have by now pointed out what you wanted to and any fans interested have your full picture. I haven’t gone over my views on not spending money we don’t have  as that was in the past but I will in the future if warranted. If you were making points related to this years accounts I could understand it, but your not.

It would be much simpler to either engage with TJF or Graeme directly as to be honest less and less people are listening.

 

As with anyone on the Forum - your entitled to your opinion - No I'm not saying anything New _ I'm pointing out that despite the Spin we are in the same loop of being dependant on Money from Cup Draws and Handouts - and nothing has changed  

Despite there detailed involvement - at no point have TJF accepted they had a major part to play in running up massive losses

I never tell people what they should post - that's up to them.

 

[Woodstock Jag]

1 hour ago, JeanieD said:

Can we not try to agree to disagree instead of this nauseating back and forth between individuals one of whom thinks the current structure of club ownership is fine and dandy and another who finds it unpalatable in the extreme.

This isn’t what I think though?

I’ve never even remotely suggested that “the current structure of club ownership is fine and dandy”; indeed I’m part of an organisation that is explicitly calling for it to be overhauled!

[javeajag]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

As with anyone on the Forum - your entitled to your opinion - No I'm not saying anything New _ I'm pointing out that despite the Spin we are in the same loop of being dependant on Money from Cup Draws and Handouts - and nothing has changed  

Despite there detailed involvement - at no point have TJF accepted they had a major part to play in running up massive losses

I never tell people what they should post - that's up to them.

 

Having said you don’t need to say anything more, you have made your point.

[Norgethistle]

1 hour ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

There has been funding via our Fans from different forms all the way back to the 800 Club therefore Fans have always been willing to contribute - it happens to be TJF but there is nothing unique and its the norm for any Club - there is therefore nothing disingenuous or malicious from stating what is a norm 

As for "damaging the whole place" actually I think you will find that the Board with TJF Backing are more than capable of doing that without my assistance - £1MN of investment squandered & record losses - a Board who refuse to answer questions on the Record losses at the AGM - in effect blaming it on one person 

I had mentioned the removal of Alastair Creevy as an example of the closed shop mentality that if your not linked to the inner circle and try and make changes - your removed - prior to Alastair Creevy being removed I had never met nor spoken to him - so again your statement is wrong 

So no one is "damaging" anything - I suggest you aske pertinent questions on accountability & responsibility of the huge losses and squandered cash ~ these things were obvious to anyone that read what the financial statements were being made  

Ok what other “conduit” has put over £500k into the club? Let alone in space of just over 2 and half years.

800 club? Lottery? Jags Trust? Save the Jags? 

Fans have bought into TJF, its ethos, its events and its merchandise. If they hadn’t it wouldn’t have nearly 2000 members putting a significant 6 figure sum into the club.
 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

16 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Ok what other “conduit” has put over £500k into the club? Let alone in space of just over 2 and half years.

800 club? Lottery? Jags Trust? Save the Jags? 

Fans have bought into TJF, its ethos, its events and its merchandise. If they hadn’t it wouldn’t have nearly 2000 members putting a significant 6 figure sum into the club.
 

 

First given the timescales you cant compare numbers so your statement is hardly comparable 

In addition you have to compare Fan Numbers & routes to communication - even things like available disposable income have to be factored in - but the 800 Club & STJ are certainly comparable.

The Jags Trust at one point had plans to launch its only Monthly Lottery which would have raised decent sums - however the Club wanted to launch there Centenary Fund so the Jags Trust merged there lottery into the Clubs.

The point being is that its the norm for Fans to support Fund Raising for the Club in most instances its not linked to anything beyond that - so to suggest Fans have bought into the TJF ethos is stretching things 

There was no actual major demand for Fan Ownership - Colin Weir said we were having it and that was that - obviously there are arguments over what he believed was how Fan Ownership operated & how TJF saw it 

The fact that TJF cant get enough people to stand as candidates + the Fan Rep position got three for Two Reps would tend to suggest Fans are not overly fussed    

[JeanieD]

1 hour ago, Woodstock Jag said:

This isn’t what I think though?

I’ve never even remotely suggested that “the current structure of club ownership is fine and dandy”; indeed I’m part of an organisation that is explicitly calling for it to be overhauled!

Apologies for misrepresentation- I should have suggested that in contrast to the other main contributor to this debacle of a debate you are more content with the current situation than he - although perhaps not completely happy with all aspects thereof.

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 hour ago, javeajag said:

Having said you don’t need to say anything more, you have made your point.

I don't tell you or any other poster what they should say or not say - if you don't like what I post - don't read them 

[javeajag]

30 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

I don't tell you or any other poster what they should say or not say - if you don't like what I post - don't read them 

As expected, no one is telling you what to say just wondering why you keep repeating it.

[Norgethistle]

58 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

First given the timescales you cant compare numbers so your statement is hardly comparable 

In addition you have to compare Fan Numbers & routes to communication - even things like available disposable income have to be factored in - but the 800 Club & STJ are certainly comparable.

The Jags Trust at one point had plans to launch its only Monthly Lottery which would have raised decent sums - however the Club wanted to launch there Centenary Fund so the Jags Trust merged there lottery into the Clubs.

The point being is that its the norm for Fans to support Fund Raising for the Club in most instances its not linked to anything beyond that - so to suggest Fans have bought into the TJF ethos is stretching things 

There was no actual major demand for Fan Ownership - Colin Weir said we were having it and that was that - obviously there are arguments over what he believed was how Fan Ownership operated & how TJF saw it 

The fact that TJF cant get enough people to stand as candidates + the Fan Rep position got three for Two Reps would tend to suggest Fans are not overly fussed    

800 club had around 550 members at its peak, and jags trust never came above 1000 members, any lottery would have been that amount, but that’s payment for a potential prize. The £15k a month that TJF members put to club comes with no prize, it’s passed over willingly 

[Jordanhill Jag]

6 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

800 club had around 550 members at its peak, and jags trust never came above 1000 members, any lottery would have been that amount, but that’s payment for a potential prize. The £15k a month that TJF members put to club comes with no prize, it’s passed over willingly 

And your ignoring average wage at the time - disposable income - ability to communicate via Social Media ease of setting up payment methods etc etc 

So both of the Fund Raising efforts mentioned  + Save the Jags -simply demonstrate that Fund Raising is standard practice amongst most Clubs - no one is suggesting TJFs contributions are not welcome - but they come with conditions ref influence ( unlike those in the past) 

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

40 minutes ago, javeajag said:

As expected, no one is telling you what to say just wondering why you keep repeating it.

Why does it bother you so much ? 
 

And yes - you are telling me what to say 
 

[Barney Rubble]

52 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Why does it bother you so much ? 
 

And yes - you are telling me what to say 
 

He isn't telling you what to say.

He's quite rightly indicating what NOT to repeat ad infinitum.

[Jordanhill Jag]

1 minute ago, Barney Rubble said:

He isn't telling you what to say.

He's quite rightly indicating what NOT to repeat ad infinitum.

And who is he to “indicate” to anyone ? On what not to say ? 
 

or anyone else for that matter - no one is forcing you to read it 

[madcapmilkdrinker]

6 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The point being is that its the norm for Fans to support Fund Raising for the Club in most instances its not linked to anything beyond that - so to suggest Fans have bought into the TJF ethos is stretching things 

This is just crazy. The Jags Foundation has 2000 members! That’s the definition of ‘buying in’. 

Asking for a friend, does this forum offer an ignore function? 

[madcapmilkdrinker]

5 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

And yes - you are telling me what to say 
 

He’s asking you straightforward and pertinent questions about what you’re hoping to achieve. That you point blank refuse to answer him says everything. 

[Jordanhill Jag]

44 minutes ago, madcapmilkdrinker said:

He’s asking you straightforward and pertinent questions about what you’re hoping to achieve. That you point blank refuse to answer him says everything. 

What are you going on about ?

i have discussed TJF and its growing influence over the Club which in my view is not healthy - no different from when I attempted to Flag up that the Finances were a mess and was in effect told to shut up ( until of course it came out that the Finances were a mess) 

Flagging up issues that can impact the Club long term is exactly that and TJF saying there not correct is the exact MO as previous 

So stop peddling conspiracy theories and maybe ask pertinent questions instead  

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

53 minutes ago, madcapmilkdrinker said:

This is just crazy. The Jags Foundation has 2000 members! That’s the definition of ‘buying in’. 

Asking for a friend, does this forum offer an ignore function? 

Fans bought into the 800 Club roughly in similar proportions given the time 

it didn't have an “ethos” to buy into - supporting the Club financially is just that - lots of members of TJF will see it as a variation of the 800 Club - including myself it doesn't mean you buy into an “ethos” 

[jagfox]

1 hour ago, madcapmilkdrinker said:

Asking for a friend, does this forum offer an ignore function? 

Thankfully yes but not as effective if ignored person is quoted...

[Norgethistle]

13 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

And your ignoring average wage at the time - disposable income - ability to communicate via Social Media ease of setting up payment methods etc etc 

So both of the Fund Raising efforts mentioned  + Save the Jags -simply demonstrate that Fund Raising is standard practice amongst most Clubs - no one is suggesting TJFs contributions are not welcome - but they come with conditions ref influence ( unlike those in the past) 

 

 

Jags Trust is £10 a year

800 club was effectively a lottery

 

Don’t come close to what TJF has achieved even during a cost of living crisis.  Ultimately you don’t like them 

[Jordanhill Jag]

42 minutes ago, Norgethistle said:

Jags Trust is £10 a year

800 club was effectively a lottery

 

Don’t come close to what TJF has achieved even during a cost of living crisis.  Ultimately you don’t like them 

If you read my post - I referred to the proposed JT Lottery which had the potential to grow - this was under a New JT  there was a deal done that the % numbers transferred over from the JT lottery to the CF would result in a share transfer to the JT each year 

the 800 Club was over 30 Years ago 

you cannot compare TJF fund raiser and say its more successful as your not comparing apples for apples as these Fund Raisers did not have Social Media or FinTech to make payment easy 

My View of TJF is irrelevant the point is our Fans have always raised Funds for the Club - TJF happens to be the current vehicle - for a lot of members its no different from the 800 Club 

the idea of all members buying into the TJF “ethos” is nonsense they cant even get enough people to hold an election 

Fund Raising and there control of the Club are not connected 

[fifexile]

4 hours ago, Norgethistle said:

Jags Trust is £10 a year

800 club was effectively a lottery

 

Don’t come close to what TJF has achieved even during a cost of living crisis.  Ultimately you don’t like them 

As a sidebar to some of the comments. I loved the 800 club. They organised the mascots back then and my youngest nephew got the chance to be a mascot at a game when he was 6. 20 years on he is still Thistle daft and is in the JLS whenever he's not working. Also one cold December day my numbers were read out as winning the top prize Merry Christmas to me!

Not suggesting the 800 club is revived, in case some on here jump on this, its just some happy memories for a family of Jags fans.

 

[Woodstock Jag]

It is worth pointing out, is it not, that the 800 Club and the artist formerly known as the Centenary Fund (which absorbed The Jags Trust lotto) were essentially precursors to what is now the Club Lottery.

Something that TJF exists over and above.

Four years ago the Club received, in sum total, about £2k from its two main supporters' organisations, in the form of ad board/programme sponsorship.

The Club itself alone now receives a guaranteed £150k per annum from TJF, in practice typically receives another £20k over and above that thanks to additional fundraising through things like the Takeover Event, the Academy receives at least £24kpa of fan fundraising and the Women's team receives a £5k per season guarantee.

GoCardless and Stripe both existed before TJF. Other fan-based revenue streams existed before TJF. And those other streams have been retained while TJF has built-up monthly pledges.

The reality is that this is money the Club wasn't getting before the summer of 2023. And anyone who tells you otherwise has been eating grapes so sour they're at risk of aggressive acid reflux.

But of course no, it's payment processing platforms that deserve the credit, rather than the fellow fans working hard to create a membership organisation people want to be a part of and to contribute to, and a fan owned football club they feel they can add value to.

Edited August 6 by Woodstock Jag