Steven H Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I quite agree. I have seen several games on an artificial pitch and I cannot think of one that was enjoyable. I have seen some games on a pretty poor pitch that were quite good. Certainly, a poor pitch doesn't help for good football and we have been unfortunate that the weather has been so severe this winter resulting in a poor playing surface. True football is played on grass, artificial football is played on artificial pitches. I am more in this camp. Can see the benefits of an artificial pitch but these benefits could still occur if we had summer football (dont see much finance coming in by hiring out the pitch on a dailly basis as I doubt there'd be much demand for it giving the location of Firhill). Also, I still harbour hopes that we'll be playing in the SPL soon and the cost of installing an artificial pitch, then ripping it up to get a grass one again, just aint viable. Summer football, not fake grass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Willjag Posted March 27, 2011 Members Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Ball bouncing all over the place on a frost affected pitch. Ball bobbling all over the place on a mud rutted surface or running true on a nice even surface conducive to the way IM is trying to get the side playing and helpful for skilful players like Erskine? I know which I'd prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I'd reluctantly accept an artificial pitch. But only if it was in the Thistle tartan. Why do they all have to be green, when people know that it's not grass? It's like vegetarian soya products being made to look and smell like sausages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hebridean jag Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 So basically the only arguement against artificial pitches is that football should be only be played on grass......nothing else. Nothing constructive, just pure and simple `that`s the way it`s always been done`. No mention of the financial benefits available or the probable positive affects on our skill levels. To those who don`t fancy artificial pitches........give one legitimate reason why they should`nt be introduced that does`nt involve pure sentiment. just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 So basically the only arguement against artificial pitches is that football should be only be played on grass......nothing else. Nothing constructive, just pure and simple `that`s the way it`s always been done`. No mention of the financial benefits available or the probable positive affects on our skill levels. To those who don`t fancy artificial pitches........give one legitimate reason why they should`nt be introduced that does`nt involve pure sentiment. just one. i did ask if there are still the same problems with knee and ankle injuries as i am sure that Steve Lovell couldnt train on artificial pitches when he was with us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hebridean jag Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 i did ask if there are still the same problems with knee and ankle injuries as i am sure that Steve Lovell couldnt train on artificial pitches when he was with us? A quick internet search seems to indicate that manufacturers of modern pitches using the latest artificial technology will provide it`s users with less joint strain than standard playing surfaces but I have to concede it is a good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady-isobel-barnett Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 So basically the only arguement against artificial pitches is that football should be only be played on grass......nothing else. Nothing constructive, just pure and simple `that`s the way it`s always been done`. No mention of the financial benefits available or the probable positive affects on our skill levels. To those who don`t fancy artificial pitches........give one legitimate reason why they should`nt be introduced that does`nt involve pure sentiment. just one. I wasn't aware my argument against artificial pitches was anything to do with sentiment. I have to concede that my main objection is perhaps subjective and I couldn't put forward any objections that aren't based on either my observations or that from other fans or those strongly connected with clubs who have or have had plastic pitches. I also concede that most of the plus points HJ puts forward are valid, especially from an economic viewpoint, but I don't appreciate my opinion being ignored or ridiculed as sentiment. Further to that I'd like to know from those in favour of SFL level artificial pitches matches they've seen, rather than just anecdotal, that have been enhanced by playing on an artificial surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 So basically the only arguement against artificial pitches is that football should be only be played on grass......nothing else. Nothing constructive, just pure and simple `that`s the way it`s always been done`. No mention of the financial benefits available or the probable positive affects on our skill levels. To those who don`t fancy artificial pitches........give one legitimate reason why they should`nt be introduced that does`nt involve pure sentiment. just one. Ok where in my earlier post is 'sentiment' the basis for not fancying artificial pitches? Think the points raised earlier re economic benefits are all good but, other than being able to hire out the pitch everyday (which imo wont increase revenue very much due to there not being enough demand for it in the area), then everything else can be achieved with summer football. If there were 3 choices and I was asked to put them in order of preference Id say: 1) Summer football. 2) Artificial pitch. 3) Keep it the same as it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodMcDonaldJag Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Ok where in my earlier post is 'sentiment' the basis for not fancying artificial pitches? Think the points raised earlier re economic benefits are all good but, other than being able to hire out the pitch everyday (which imo wont increase revenue very much due to there not being enough demand for it in the area), then everything else can be achieved with summer football. If there were 3 choices and I was asked to put them in order of preference Id say: 1) Summer football. 2) Artificial pitch. 3) Keep it the same as it is now. Not sure you are correct about that tbh. The Firhill Complex is constantly booked out for 7asides and its very difficult to hire a park on anything less than a weeks notice. I reckon there would be quite a high demand for people wanting to hire out the pitch most nights. Im sure most Thistle fans who play in regular games would love to play at Firhill for a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hebridean jag Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Ok where in my earlier post is 'sentiment' the basis for not fancying artificial pitches? Think the points raised earlier re economic benefits are all good but, other than being able to hire out the pitch everyday (which imo wont increase revenue very much due to there not being enough demand for it in the area), then everything else can be achieved with summer football. If there were 3 choices and I was asked to put them in order of preference Id say: 1) Summer football. 2) Artificial pitch. 3) Keep it the same as it is now. Summer football has three huge downsides for me (although a better option than the status quo). It would mean chaos to fixture lists every two years when the major championships take place. Our weather is still likely to mean cancellation of fixtures. A season must have a duration of approx 9 months in order to fulfill fixtures. That means a close season of 3 months (nearer 2). Rainfall and colder weather conditions affect this country for far longer periods. Summer football will not take away the problem of the deterioration of playing surfaces. Firhill would still be a grassless mud heap irrespective of when the season starts given current circumstances. In all honesty I feel that taking out three months in mid winter (pick three) would have little real impact on our playing surfaces and has been seen this month, games are still called off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Taking our games at Hamilton as the most recent occasions when I watched professional matches on an artificial pitch, it was clear that Thistle players in particular had problems dealing with the way the ball bounced and the speed of passes along the surface. Nothing different there, one might say, but Accies' home record that season showed clearly that they were at an advantage from being so experienced on it. More recently I've watched some lower-level matches, including Thistle youths, and nobody seems to want to slide in to tackle on these surfaces. And I'm not talking about potentially dangerous tackles from behind, I'm talking about perfectly legitimate, sometimes last-ditch tackles that are a part of the enjoyment of the game. Yes, of course a form of football can be played on artificial pitches, and it can even be entertaining to watch, but it's not exactly the same as what you might hope to see on a natural surface, whether that's a lush lawn or a tattie field. So the question is whether people are happy to watch a different type of football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bunny Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) Taking our games at Hamilton as the most recent occasions when I watched professional matches on an artificial pitch, it was clear that Thistle players in particular had problems dealing with the way the ball bounced and the speed of passes along the surface. Nothing different there, one might say, but Accies' home record that season showed clearly that they were at an advantage from being so experienced on it. More recently I've watched some lower-level matches, including Thistle youths, and nobody seems to want to slide in to tackle on these surfaces. And I'm not talking about potentially dangerous tackles from behind, I'm talking about perfectly legitimate, sometimes last-ditch tackles that are a part of the enjoyment of the game. Yes, of course a form of football can be played on artificial pitches, and it can even be entertaining to watch, but it's not exactly the same as what you might hope to see on a natural surface, whether that's a lush lawn or a tattie field. So the question is whether people are happy to watch a different type of football. I think the question really rests on what kind of artificial pitch is used. The quality of pitches are improving all the time, although I'd guess (don't really know) that the kind that are more like "real" pitches (and can be slid on) are more expensive than the so called "plastic" pitches we've seen in the past. If we did go down that route it would be essential we got something that didn't affect the way players played too much. In fact we probably couldn't afford to go for this option unless we got something that was suitable for playing rugby on too as we'll depend on money from Warriors for a few years yet. Edited March 28, 2011 by Mr Bunny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Accies' home record that season showed clearly that they were at an advantage from being so experienced on it. It was a good record, however that is quite common. Look at Man Utd's league record this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberteeb Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Having watched gamed on both surfaces I prefer grass. Same way in the NFL I’d rather watch an outside game on a grass surface than a dome game on astro turf. Whether that is just sentiment or not I don’t know but given the choice I’d rather play on grass. Same way when you were a wee guy who preferred ash pitches to grass ones? Nobody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 It was a good record, however that is quite common. Look at Man Utd's league record this season. Great, Hamilton Accies and Man Utd considered together! I don't have the stats at hand, but somehow I doubt whether Accies lost only 3 away games in 15, which is currently the case for Utd. When Accies won the league they, like everybody else, were no great shakes. But their artificial pitch gave them a great home advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Not sure you are correct about that tbh. The Firhill Complex is constantly booked out for 7asides and its very difficult to hire a park on anything less than a weeks notice. I reckon there would be quite a high demand for people wanting to hire out the pitch most nights. Im sure most Thistle fans who play in regular games would love to play at Firhill for a start. Was thinking of the Firhill Complex when I said that, felt the demand would already be with them but didnt realise it was such a busy place...but would the revenue gained at Firhill via an artificial pitch be as much as an extra 5000 punters through the gates over the course of a season (which I feel would be achievable with with summer football)? I also feel the problems regarding the Euro's and World Cups can be overcome without too much difficulty, other countries do it without too much hassle. It would also benefit our Clubs in Europe because it would take away that stupid thing we have now where for most their first competative match is a Champs League or Europa Cup qualifier. The other big issue for me with regards to the artificial pitch is the SPL's stance on not allowing them. Until that changes there is no viable economic sense in laying an artificial surface at Firhill because any money we make from it will be lost as we'd need to pay to get it removed so we can return to a grass surface in the event we do gain promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimp Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 u all talk about better football, but in my eyes, the best football is winning, no matter how you do it. u could pass beautifully on a nice flat artificial surface, play beautiful football but get done 13-0. 'no danger power ranger, played some excellent stuff today but we got gubbed 13-0.' i think the tatty field helps us. a nice synthetic surface would help a lot of teams, but i think when teams come and see how bad firhill is and the desperately have to try, rethink their gameplan to fit in how bad it is it will help us. i think the tatty field makes it part of what is great to be a thistle fan, one to tell our grandsons about how the rugby buggers used it on a friday night and turned firhill into passechdale and how we used it to our advantage to gazump teams to get into the premier. i say no to artificial surfaces, firhill is grass, mud and howitzer craters and i want to keep it that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hebridean jag Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Let me introduce a purely selfish aspect to this debate. It would be nice to attend a game in the certain knowledge it would be taking place. It would be great to be able to plan for a weekend trip with the certainty that the weather would`nt make the exercise or expenditure pointless. That`s three out of the last four games someone from our party has made the journey to the mainland only to have the game cancelled. Trust me it makes a huge difference in our match attendance. I repeat though that summer football would make little difference when it comes to waterlogged pitches, we`d still get them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Let me introduce a purely selfish aspect to this debate. It would be nice to attend a game in the certain knowledge it would be taking place. It would be great to be able to plan for a weekend trip with the certainty that the weather would`nt make the exercise or expenditure pointless. That`s three out of the last four games someone from our party has made the journey to the mainland only to have the game cancelled. Trust me it makes a huge difference in our match attendance. I repeat though that summer football would make little difference when it comes to waterlogged pitches, we`d still get them. is it not a bit of a moot point as of the 11 matches postponed only two have been at Firhill, so although we might have the best pitch in the league we would still have another nine crap pitches to play on which could put us at an disadvantage at away games. just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Let me introduce a purely selfish aspect to this debate. It would be nice to attend a game in the certain knowledge it would be taking place. It would be great to be able to plan for a weekend trip with the certainty that the weather would`nt make the exercise or expenditure pointless. That`s three out of the last four games someone from our party has made the journey to the mainland only to have the game cancelled. Trust me it makes a huge difference in our match attendance. I repeat though that summer football would make little difference when it comes to waterlogged pitches, we`d still get them. How's that? No football during Dec, Jan and Feb would mean the pitch ain't taking such a battering thus reducing the effect of any rain during the season (I know, November was a bugger too and that's one of the problems with summer football, or even a winter break, when do we have it?). The Falkirk game at Firhill would never have been postponed due to a waterlogged pitch if the pitch wasn't fecked to begin with. Summer football would not eliminate the risk of postponements but it would reduce it considerably, same with artificial pitches...even artificial grass gets frozen so nothing is a given. In addition, we would have bigger crowds in summer months because the prospect of a cold, wet, windy afternoon is not appealing whereas warm, sunny and bright always brings about bigger crowds. As Jags tho, we are likely to suffer more than most due to our colours being attractive to bloody wasps...I hate wasps I do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 A few years ago I would have said no way to fake pitches. I'm very much a traditionalist when it comes to football. However, given the current state of Firhill and having sampled the new 4G surface recently I would now be in favour of an artificial surface. Pretty well summed up HJ in any case. We've just lost far too many games to the weather this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 A few years ago I would have said no way to fake pitches. I'm very much a traditionalist when it comes to football. However, given the current state of Firhill and having sampled the new 4G surface recently I would now be in favour of an artificial surface. Pretty well summed up HJ in any case. We've just lost far too many games to the weather this season. Maybe so, but imo what has really cost us is that we've lost far too many games to diddy teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hebridean jag Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 is it not a bit of a moot point as of the 11 matches postponed only two have been at Firhill, so although we might have the best pitch in the league we would still have another nine crap pitches to play on which could put us at an disadvantage at away games. just a thought My first post on this clearly stated that the SFL should make artificial pitches available to all member clubs by subsidising the relaying. I also think that the SFL should consider making it mandatory for clubs to have all weather pitches thus opening up a huge (relative) number of playing surfaces to local communities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) My first post on this clearly stated that the SFL should make artificial pitches available to all member clubs by subsidising the relaying. I also think that the SFL should consider making it mandatory for clubs to have all weather pitches thus opening up a huge (relative) number of playing surfaces to local communities. i may be wrong but at around £400000 (From a quick Google) a pop i cant see that happing anytime soon and it would need to be about 99% subsidised at the moment with our finances Edited March 28, 2011 by jaggybunnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinny Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 i may be wrong but at around £400000 (From a quick Google) a pop i cant see that happing anytime soon and it would need to be about 99% subsidised at the moment with our finances Well, that depends. How much do the club spend on training facilities and USH over a season? Add on the potential income from pitch hire and I think we'd be doing alright. We could also ask the SRU to help out (they'll benefit from lower chance of called off games and home advantage in rugby from plastic pitches will be bigger, since footballers train often on artificial surfaces whereas I imagine it is rare in rugby). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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