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Scottlish Elections


Fistle1876
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As Andrew Haldene of the Bank of England recently pointed out, our yearly implicit subsidy to the banks is equal to the entire NHS budget. I think most people would rather see some regulation of the banking sector that got us into this mess rather than the punitive draconian measures dreamt up by people with even less empathy than even you.

 

We should have never bailed out the banks. :thumbsup2:

 

It's not more regulation we need, but allowing losers to lose.

 

Capitalism is about profit and loss, and if you bail out the losers there's no end to the cost.

Edited by Woodstock Jag
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Who knows what the difference might be? If you never try, you'll never know. We've tried 300 years of London, and that's enough, thank you.

So you want to divide a stable democracy where there are about 500 000 English living in Scotland and the same if not more Scots in England to basically "give it a go"? Again you use London. Geography. In England. Despite it being one of only two really international global cities where people from all over the world are attracted to (the other being New York) somehow as it's based in that far away land of England then it's bad.

 

What is there to be frightened of? Would independence mean the end of stable democracy? Of course not! Do general elections every 4-5 years signal the end of stable democracy? Of course not! Your point about the numbers of people from outwith Scotland living here, or Scots living elsewhere is irrelevant to the question of whether Scotland should/is capable of governing itself, and might do a better job of it for all the people who are living here.

 

 

 

[i]Oh, I forgot, the unionists in Holyrood blocked the only serious attempt to address alcohol abuse.[/i]

Minimum alcohol pricing is a tiny piece of what is needed. Culture needs to change. Moving away from "getting on the bevvy" plus councils and police already have huge powers to control drinking via current laws which are never used.

 

Agreed, but legislation as a tiny piece is at least a start. Just look at the change in attitudes towards driving after having had one or two drinks compared to how it used to be, or to wearing seat belts to how it used to be. Or to smoking in bars, restuarants, in offices etc. Legislation can play a role in helping to change attitudes. The unionist parties blocked the SNP's proposals for petty political reasons.

 

 

Yes, many people migrate, but it's usually because their economic and/or social situation makes their native country no longer attractive enough to keep them.

We live in a globalised world. Populations move all the time. 100 000 Poles came to Scotland at the peak and the majority all worked. Where did these jobs come from and why did native Scots not take them? There is a over reliance on the state and a work ethic that has been diminished in many parts. The left leaning SNP (when it suits them) wont help that. Entrepreneurship and getting off ones arse will help. Nationalism does not promote openness but inward looking and accusing fingers of not being Scottish enough and being a traitor wont attract people, keep them or open up investment. I think the main reasons people leave is the weather and the sense of adventure. That will never end.

 

Agreed about the globalized world, and there's nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is the illogical accusation of narrow-mindedness and xenophobia leveled at SNP supporters by British nationalists, by which I mean many (not all) of those who are desperate to save the union.

 

Overall to me nationalism is a bizarre political viewpoint. By luck you are born in Scotland. If you were born in England would you be a supporter of the English Democrats? Would you want to give two fingers to people in Newcasle, Liverpool, Leeds etc and say I'm doing my own thing. Thanks for Welfare State, NHS, ability to bail ourselves out from the credit crunch but GTF anyway and look at Ireland and Iceland who were part of the once mythical "Arc of Prosperity".

 

Not really sure what you're getting at here, but it's impossible to state that that the world economic crisis would have affected Scotland in a worse way if we had been independent, because the entire economic context would have been different. And don't forget the the UK is trillions (yes trillions) of pounds in debt, that will probably never be paid off. That Arc of Prosperity wasn't at all mythical for as long as it lasted, and those countries will eventually recover. There are other small countries with a much higher level of prosperity than us.

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The Tories do not call the shots. There is a coalition of Conservative and Liberal Democrat which makes up the Westminster government and there is cross party work and private members bills. The SNP are in charge of the devolved areas so they need to stop blaming Westminster for these issues. They are very good at deflecting blame by blaming evil London - that multicultural, liberal, international city one hour away on a plane. I didn't choose the SNP yet they call the shots for me. The UK is stable and democratic. Watch the news and you see turmoil in places close to us like Greece. Look into the growing support for far right parties in surprising places like Denmark and Sweden. A politician is looking after their constituents but mostly their own back to climb the greasy poll in the party. Look at the history of Alex Salmond with the '79 group and his hard left policies and now he sucks up the business and dodges any real questions on independence.

 

I am Scottish because I was born in Scotland but what do I have in common with a fisherman from Peterhead, a crofter from Skye, a privately educated lawyer from Edinburgh and a farmer from the borders? A Nationalist cannot answer this because they are obsessed with geography, national borders and "us and them". I can answer it. F all. I have more in common with mates from Belfast, Manchester, Cambridge and London. We live on a small island, it's better to work together.

 

 

I really do not know where to begin with this post.

 

I assume you were quite happy with the likes of illegal wars in Iraq, after all you have more in common with the people who made those decisions than your fellow (Scottish) countrymen.

 

Alex Salmond being slagged off by a Lib Dem is hilarious. A party that has proved it has absolutely no principles whatsoever.

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I assume you were quite happy with the likes of illegal wars in Iraq, after all you have more in common with the people who made those decisions than your fellow (Scottish) countrymen.

 

Millions of people marched against the Iraq invasion in London, Scottish, Welsh and English. It was promoted by a government which was dominated by my fellow Scottish countrymen.

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People are disappointed about their life so they look at a promising future which could never the attained.

I've quite enjoyed reading this thread, it's good to be able to see such a spread of opinion, but this is by far the most depressing part. I remember when the smoking ban was going through thinking how progressive it was and that I was proud of Scotland for taking such action. That was just part of looking at a more promising future. There's been some more since, and I think that minimum pricing for alcohol was born of the same spirit (if you'll pardon the pun). It's a shame that it was blocked by petty party politics. I'm wondering if it will be back on the agenda now that the SNP have a majority.

 

I view independence with the same progressive attitude; I think it's the next logical step for Scotland and I've yet to see any argument against it other than the negative doom-sayers. No-one on the pro-independence side is saying that it'll be easy, or even a success, but I think it's clear to most in Scotland that the status-quo doesn't suit a more progressive Scottish psyche (which has been a long time coming)—the election results show that (in part at least).

 

Another 300 years of so hundreds of thousands of Scots experiencing "the benefits" of the union to the point that they prefer to abandon their country to settle somewhere else?

As someone who did just that in 2010 I can say that this was definitely part of the reason why we left. We considered a lot of arguments and it came down to this: we could stay and hope for independence and be facing maybe a generation of nation-building struggle (which our children would have to do, not us) or we could get out. In the end it seemed unlikely that independence was on the horizon, Labour had wrecked the UK and the Tories looked a shoe-in at the next election (to finish the job), so we escaped (and that's what it felt like to us). Now we're hoping that we might have to apply for Scottish passports in a few years and emigrate again!

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Alex Salmond being slagged off by a Lib Dem is hilarious. A party that has proved it has absolutely no principles whatsoever.

 

What, the SNP???

 

Trump, Souter, News International... :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

 

None of the mainstream political parties are worth getting excited over. They're all willing to sell out to the highest bidder :(

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I remember when the smoking ban was going through thinking how progressive it was and that I was proud of Scotland for taking such action. That was just part of looking at a more promising future. There's been some more since, and I think that minimum pricing for alcohol was born of the same spirit (if you'll pardon the pun). It's a shame that it was blocked by petty party politics. I'm wondering if it will be back on the agenda now that the SNP have a majority.

 

I view independence with the same progressive attitude; I think it's the next logical step for Scotland and I've yet to see any argument against it other than the negative doom-sayers. No-one on the pro-independence side is saying that it'll be easy, or even a success, but I think it's clear to most in Scotland that the status-quo doesn't suit a more progressive Scottish psyche (which has been a long time coming)—the election results show that (in part at least).

 

 

Head of nail firmly hit.

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I view independence with the same progressive attitude; I think it's the next logical step for Scotland and I've yet to see any argument against it other than the negative doom-sayers. No-one on the pro-independence side is saying that it'll be easy, or even a success, but I think it's clear to most in Scotland that the status-quo doesn't suit a more progressive Scottish psyche (which has been a long time coming)—the election results show that (in part at least).

For me I've yet to see any argument for other than the all promising vagueness of hope and deliverance. I don't think the Scottish psyche is any more progressive than say English people. If you were to say that about Indians or Africans then you could (and I am not accusing you before you jump down my throat) lead to accusations of gentle racism. Our psyche is good and bad as with all countries. Bad = sectarianism and you don't that in England who are bemused by it. Just look at the Chief Executives of SPL and SFA over the whole Lennon affair.

 

Emigration is a "fresh start" no matter where you are from. For me NZ is expensive, far away and pretty boring but for you it means other things. I don't buy your romanticism that you had to leave from the tryany of Labour and Conservatives.

 

The main thing for me which I find daft is if Scotland was independence you would have a SNP rump who would say "we are Scotland's party" you must vote for us and the other parties will be Labour/Social Democratic, Liberal, Conservative, Green.

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For me I've yet to see any argument for other than the all promising vagueness of hope and deliverance. I don't think the Scottish psyche is any more progressive than say English people. If you were to say that about Indians or Africans then you could (and I am not accusing you before you jump down my throat) lead to accusations of gentle racism. Our psyche is good and bad as with all countries. Bad = sectarianism and you don't that in England who are bemused by it. Just look at the Chief Executives of SPL and SFA over the whole Lennon affair.

 

Emigration is a "fresh start" no matter where you are from. For me NZ is expensive, far away and pretty boring but for you it means other things. I don't buy your romanticism that you had to leave from the tryany of Labour and Conservatives.

 

The main thing for me which I find daft is if Scotland was independence you would have a SNP rump who would say "we are Scotland's party" you must vote for us and the other parties will be Labour/Social Democratic, Liberal, Conservative, Green.

 

Can you provide an arguement about the benefits of Scotland remaining in the union without deflecting the issue by insinuating someone is a lying racist? I have yet to read anything from you that is anything more than deflection and insulting folks intelligence.

 

At best you are saying politicians in an independent Scotland would be no better and no worse than politicians in Westminster, which is really not arguing against independence at all. At worst you are saying all pro-independent Scots are racist and basing their beliefs on some 'them and us' divide. From what Ive read on this thread there is no justification for this and pro-independents have made a reasonably valid case while those against independence are being insulting and quite frankly arguing for arguings sake am I wrong? If so, please be more clearer in what your points are :thumbsup2:

 

Let me cut a long story short...do you believe , as a nation, Scotland has the right to choose? By choose I mean who should represent us, whether we should be an independent country, whether we have the right to make the decisions that affect our country, because it seems like we are not being listened to while we are part of the union.

 

Edited to add: In terms of your final point, don't you think the other parties would change their ways in an independent Scotland and become more attuned to the Scottish voter? The Tories have got it wrong for longer than Ive been born, and Labours last Scottish election campaign highlighted just how out of touch they are with the Scottish voter. An independent Scotland would leave parties outwith the SNP with no choice but to become more like parties for Scotland (or Scotland's parties if you prefer).

Edited by Steven H
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We live on a small island, it's better to work together.

 

I understand the unionist argument - I think it tends towards scaremongering in general, and certainly did in the election camapaign when Labour plumbed new depths and were rewarded. But this bit above is where the argument comes off the rails - what does the fact that we share an island with England and Wales have to do with anything? You're using geography arbitrarily in the same way as you accuse the SNP of doing. By this logic, should we hand over Northern Ireland? It is also part of a small island, just not the same one as us. What about the Falklands, would they be better off working together with Argentina?

 

I'm not quoting Braveheart or painting my face, but Scotland is not just part of a small island - it's a separate country. I can accept and possibly even agree with those arguing in favour of a much more federalised UK, with full powers over taxation, natural resources etc devolved respectively. But many of your posts here make out Scotland to be something that it's not.

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I understand the unionist argument - I think it tends towards scaremongering in general, and certainly did in the election camapaign when Labour plumbed new depths and were rewarded. But this bit above is where the argument comes off the rails - what does the fact that we share an island with England and Wales have to do with anything? You're using geography arbitrarily in the same way as you accuse the SNP of doing. By this logic, should we hand over Northern Ireland? It is also part of a small island, just not the same one as us. What about the Falklands, would they be better off working together with Argentina?

 

I'm not quoting Braveheart or painting my face, but Scotland is not just part of a small island - it's a separate country. I can accept and possibly even agree with those arguing in favour of a much more federalised UK, with full powers over taxation, natural resources etc devolved respectively. But many of your posts here make out Scotland to be something that it's not.

Not to mention the fact that Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland, Lithuania, Estonia etc etc and many others are smaller than Scotland and bordered or surrounded by bigger countries. They co-operate with their neighbours, but run their own affairs, including their foreign policy, their broadcasting etc. etc.; precisely what unionists are happy about denying us.

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Not to mention the fact that Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland, Lithuania, Estonia etc etc and many others are smaller than Scotland and bordered or surrounded by bigger countries. They co-operate with their neighbours, but run their own affairs, including their foreign policy, their broadcasting etc. etc.; precisely what unionists are happy about denying us.

 

The tide is turning and the unionists and their supporters numbers are diminshing as most Scots (excluding likes of LLD) are increasingly realising the age old arguments from south of border why we should not be independant, is just english propaganda and lies, and Scotland as a nation has it well within itself to grow and prosper as a completely Independant country, while still trading and co-operating on various levels with the country to the south of us.

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The tide is turning and the unionists and their supporters numbers are diminshing as most Scots (excluding likes of LLD) are increasingly realising the age old arguments from south of border why we should not be independant, is just english propaganda and lies, and Scotland as a nation has it well within itself to grow and prosper as a completely Independant country, while still trading and co-operating on various levels with the country to the south of us.

 

 

well have your vote then, you will lose it :thumbsup2:

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Can you provide an arguement about the benefits of Scotland remaining in the union without deflecting the issue by insinuating someone is a lying racist? I have yet to read anything from you that is anything more than deflection and insulting folks intelligence.

 

 

the problem is i have seen nothing to say it would be better if we were independant, infact as far as i can see it would be worse and i have yet to see where big alex is going to get all the money for this apart from taxing the hell out of us.

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the problem is i have seen nothing to say it would be better if we were independant, infact as far as i can see it would be worse and i have yet to see where big alex is going to get all the money for this apart from taxing the hell out of us.

Below is a letter cut and pasted in its entirety from today's Herald.

 

During the recent Scottish election all three of the now-departed leaders of the Labour, Conservative and LibDem parties claimed to be strong supporters of the Union, but they all failed to produce specific reasons why it should continue in its present form.

Instead they patronised the voters with simplistic assertions such as “we are stronger together than apart”, but provided no detailed evidence of the benefits of being bound together in what seems to be an imbalanced and increasingly dysfunctional partnership. In the forthcoming referendum, how can we make up our minds without honest and reliable information?

How does Scotland benefit from sending to the London Treasury all the personal and business taxes collected in Scotland, and then getting back an annual block grant which may or may not be a fair return? What advantage is it to have all decisions on our economic and taxation policies taken by a UK parliament in which we have less than 10% representation? As one example, how do we benefit by having junior UK ministers representing our important fishing industry interests at European summits?

What are the attractions to the English of being tied up with a small country to the north, which many see as a nation of scroungers and whingers who pay no taxes and rely on Barnett Formula subsidies from English taxpayers to keep them in booze and from having to work for a living? Perhaps the benefit is being able to base the UK’s nuclear arsenal and submarines as far away as possible from London, or the constant supply of Scottish soldiers to fight in illegal or pointless wars?

If there is to be a referendum in three years’ time on Scotland’s independence, whatever that may mean in today’s world, let’s use the time to have a meaningful debate on all the pros and cons, and don’t insult us with patronising statements that Scotland is too small or incapable of supporting its own economy. New Zealand, with a smaller population, seems to have managed to do that for the last 100 years on just sheep and butter. Surely Scotland has at least as much potential and natural resources, and the ability to manage our own affairs?

Let us have a grown-up debate with all the real facts and figures, not political propaganda or sexed-up dossiers. And then let the people decide.

Iain A D Mann,

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Below is a letter cut and pasted in its entirety from today's Herald.

 

During the recent Scottish election all three of the now-departed leaders of the Labour, Conservative and LibDem parties claimed to be strong supporters of the Union, but they all failed to produce specific reasons why it should continue in its present form.

Instead they patronised the voters with simplistic assertions such as “we are stronger together than apart”, but provided no detailed evidence of the benefits of being bound together in what seems to be an imbalanced and increasingly dysfunctional partnership. In the forthcoming referendum, how can we make up our minds without honest and reliable information?

How does Scotland benefit from sending to the London Treasury all the personal and business taxes collected in Scotland, and then getting back an annual block grant which may or may not be a fair return? What advantage is it to have all decisions on our economic and taxation policies taken by a UK parliament in which we have less than 10% representation? As one example, how do we benefit by having junior UK ministers representing our important fishing industry interests at European summits?

What are the attractions to the English of being tied up with a small country to the north, which many see as a nation of scroungers and whingers who pay no taxes and rely on Barnett Formula subsidies from English taxpayers to keep them in booze and from having to work for a living? Perhaps the benefit is being able to base the UK’s nuclear arsenal and submarines as far away as possible from London, or the constant supply of Scottish soldiers to fight in illegal or pointless wars?

If there is to be a referendum in three years’ time on Scotland’s independence, whatever that may mean in today’s world, let’s use the time to have a meaningful debate on all the pros and cons, and don’t insult us with patronising statements that Scotland is too small or incapable of supporting its own economy. New Zealand, with a smaller population, seems to have managed to do that for the last 100 years on just sheep and butter. Surely Scotland has at least as much potential and natural resources, and the ability to manage our own affairs?

Let us have a grown-up debate with all the real facts and figures, not political propaganda or sexed-up dossiers. And then let the people decide.

Iain A D Mann,

 

 

you are getting this wrong, those that want independance MUST prove that it is better not the other way round or as i have seen on here the lets just give it a shot mob.

 

and the big bad boys from westminster stole our pocket money isnt propaganda :rolleyes:

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Below is a letter cut and pasted in its entirety from today's Herald.

 

During the recent Scottish election all three of the now-departed leaders of the Labour, Conservative and LibDem parties claimed to be strong supporters of the Union, but they all failed to produce specific reasons why it should continue in its present form.

Instead they patronised the voters with simplistic assertions such as “we are stronger together than apart”, but provided no detailed evidence of the benefits of being bound together in what seems to be an imbalanced and increasingly dysfunctional partnership. In the forthcoming referendum, how can we make up our minds without honest and reliable information?

 

Undoubtedly accurate analysis and one that particularly annoys me as a Liberal Democrat. Labour and Conservative parties might be "strong supporters of the Union" (in reality, they are strong supporters of heavily centralised government) but the liberal tradition has been in favour of a federal arrangement within the UK. Whatever that may make us, supporters of the union as it stands it should never be stated as but the Scottish Liberal Democrats leadership allowed this to be the case.

 

As Alex Salmond once said (probably over a few pints after some football at Tynecastle) "Independence is a process, not an event" It's becoming even clearer now that the SNP are open to conferederal solutions (indeed, I might argue that the purist version of independence is no longer possible in today's world) and as such are looking increasingly the most likely best hope for liberal ambitions of a more decentralised polity.

 

Having said that, there are some contra-indications - the proposal for a single police force is an abomination; the previous proposal for a local income tax was anything but local but a nationally imposed and controlled means of raising revenue.

 

In any event, one watches with interest

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you are getting this wrong, those that want independance MUST prove that it is better not the other way round or as i have seen on here the lets just give it a shot mob.

 

and the big bad boys from westminster stole our pocket money isnt propaganda :rolleyes:

No they don't. What party has ever PROVED that their policies are better before an election? Not a single one. People take what they say on trust. And for far too long the Scottish electorate's trust has been abused by Westminster, regardless of what party has been in power. Thankfully, more and more Scots are now not only realizing this, but they are prepared to take appropriate action to give themselves what they consider (and it doesn't need to be proved beforehand) a better option and a better country (or even to allow their trust to be abused a bit nearer home, maybe. ;) )

 

Don't forget, although dinosaurs were around for a long time they became extinct because they couldn't and wouldn't adapt to changes in the environment. That analogy translates well to politics.

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No they don't. What party has ever PROVED that their policies are better before an election? Not a single one. People take what they say on trust. And for far too long the Scottish electorate's trust has been abused by Westminster, regardless of what party has been in power. Thankfully, more and more Scots are now not only realizing this, but they are prepared to take appropriate action to give themselves what they consider (and it doesn't need to be proved beforehand) a better option and a better country (or even to allow their trust to be abused a bit nearer home, maybe. ;) )

 

Don't forget, although dinosaurs were around for a long time they became extinct because they couldn't and wouldn't adapt to changes in the environment. That analogy translates well to politics.

 

 

you cant be talking about polititions :shocked:

 

so waht you are saying is let give it a pop, if it all falls to bits and we go bust as a country...well thats ok because we gave it a go :blink:

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