New Legislation

[Steven H]

Is it offensive chanting? Is it sectarian songs being sung? Is it 'illicit' chanting? What's the difference between them?

 

Say we sing 'oh the Airdrie are shite', are we liable to face a maximum punishment of 5 years in the big hoose? What about the aftermath of Culter? Clearly offensive to some going by the reaction on here but should those fans face criminal charges?

 

I'm all for anything that helps rid our country of the sectarian bile that can be found all over Scotland, but not sure this actually does that. How is it gona be policed? One person may get offended at something while another 1000 don't. What about the 'you're no' very good' song, is that now taboo because the shite player in question might take offense?

 

Anyway, at the risk of sounding like an OF fan, it seems like a pointless and unworkable piece of legislation to me.

[honved]

You do sound like one of those Old Firm apologists that are floating around at the moment. Full of ah but and whitaboot.

 

Here's a good one.

 

"Most people are convicted of sectarian offences away from football grounds and matchdays, so that means it's not connected with football" © some OF walloper on Twitter last night.

 

Who cares what the legislation says, who cares how it's gonna be policed? Those are questions for lawmakers and those administering the laws, the important thing is to try to get it to stop at the football and then we might have a fighting chance of reducing it down to mere intolerance rather than hatred.

[Allan Heron]

It's one that's likely to result in a bunch of inconsistent arrests and punishments. It's been suggested (and, frankly, as a means of avoiding engaging in a more substantive discussion) that this is a huge message from the Scottish Parliament. Well, if the Scottish Parliament can't make any huge pronouncements without having to accompany each one with a piece of legislation then it's in not doing its' job properly.

 

The legislation is also flawed as its' focus remains within the football ground. It does nothing to address the rise in violent crime that accompanies Old Firm games. It does nothing to address the rise in domestic abuse either.

 

The fundamental problem is really not one of legislative backup. The law has already been there to deal with, but the police have pretty much stood back and let it happen week after week after week. What would have been more appropriate would be a bullet up the backsides of the Chief Constables to rectify this.

 

Of course, none of this is helped by the football authorities who time and again bottle it when up against either of the Old Firm. If they'd taken a harder and more consistent line over the year, the need for political intervention might be lessened.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Allan Heron

[Steven H]

You do sound like one of those Old Firm apologists that are floating around at the moment. Full of ah but and whitaboot.

 

Here's a good one.

 

"Most people are convicted of sectarian offences away from football grounds and matchdays, so that means it's not connected with football" © some OF walloper on Twitter last night.

 

Who cares what the legislation says, who cares how it's gonna be policed? Those are questions for lawmakers and those administering the laws, the important thing is to try to get it to stop at the football and then we might have a fighting chance of reducing it down to mere intolerance rather than hatred.

 

Just playing devils advocate. I know OF fans are the targets here, I know it's an attempt to cure some serious issues in our country. What I don't know is how it will affect us. Same argument as OF fans I guess, but with a bit more credibility.

 

I would argue that the power has always been there to deal with it and nothing has been done, so how does this change anything?

 

It's a brave move by the SNP imo as they are now seen as 'out to get' the OF, I just hope it doesn't come back to bite them on the arse.

[Allan Heron]

It's a brave move by the SNP imo as they are now seen as 'out to get' the OF, I just hope it doesn't come back to bite them on the arse.

 

If so, then that will be by people who are not really part of their natural constituency so I suspect they could care less

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

If it does aid a more tolerant view of others' religion amongst Scottish society, whether whilst attending a sporting event or just in daily life, I'll be quite happy. However, this new law could do more to inflame the situation than calm it.

 

For example, the law makers have refused to issue a list of the songs (or even words?) which might put one in the chokey. Two of the most booed and despised songs are Good Save the Queen and The Soldiers Song. These two are not only hated because of the assumption made about one's religion, but also on a nationalistic and political level. I presume these two songs will not be banned. They have no sweary words and are recognised national anthems of internationally respected nation states.Therefore because of the connotations of both songs you can bet your bottom dollar they will be belted out with renewed bigoted vigour and received with as muched derision and contempt.

 

If they were to ban them, one could make an objective conclusion that The Flower of Scotland should also be be banned. Otherwise accusations of a North Korean style, follow the great leader dictatorship was the direction our political masters were taking this issue.

 

Mt view is that none of this stuff matters to me once I don my Jags scarf. I'm more concerned about us scoring more goals than them than I am about whether Brittania still rules the waves, our day will come, what my father wore, what happens when the music stops or even if we can still rise now and be a nation again.

 

I agree with Allan's point about the new laws "sending out a message" and the impotency of such a gesture. I fear that those sending that message know not what they deal with and by getting involved, simply to be seen to be doing something, could be wholly ineffective and at worst disruptive. Honved ask's who cares about the logistics, technicallities, practicalities? Anyone paying taxes should have the utmost concern. It's YOUR MONEY that will be used to resolve these details.

 

KEEP RELIGION, RACISM AND POLITCS AWAY FROM THE SPORTS FIELD!

 

F.T.O.F. Let them sing what they want. It say's more about them than it does about us. If they get violent, hammer them! If you don't like what they say, you have a choice, do your best to ignore it or avoid where they go. There are plenty laws to deal with the ar*eholes already.

 

 

edit to add : let them and us and anybody else sing what we want!

Edited December 14, 2011 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[honved]

Well to be fair, and in the spirit of whitabootery that surrounds this whole issue, it wasn't the politicians that started this bigotry, it's wholly in the hands of those whose clubs are being fined by UEFA to stop it and it's my taxes that are used to clear up folks' sore faces in the Royal Infirmary after an OF game.

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

Well to be fair, and in the spirit of whitabootery that surrounds this whole issue, it wasn't the politicians that started this bigotry, it's wholly in the hands of those whose clubs are being fined by UEFA to stop it and it's my taxes that are used to clear up folks' sore faces in the Royal Infirmary after an OF game.

 

Whit aboot Gerry Adams or Ian Paisley? Eamon De Velera or LLoyd George? How far back would you take it so we can pin-point who started it? Does that matter?

 

In passing legislation to tackle the issues the politicians are confirming the opinion that it is not, and should not, be wholly in the hands of those whose clubs are being fined by UEFA to stop it and that those clubs cannot be held wholly responsible. The numskulls are unlikely to listen to Ally or Neil's call for calm. Is Alec such a prophet that he will lead the bigots to redemption?

 

I doubt the staff at the Royal will be looking forward to any old firm games soon, in anticipation of an easy shift. Meanwhile, their emergency service colleagues at the London Road and Hellen Street Nick will i' sure be rubbing their hands with glee at all the extra overtime, paperwork and interesting theological debates over what is and what is not a "sectarian song".

Edited December 14, 2011 by ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz

[uberteeb]

I had a discussion with an SNP MSP over this, he is one of the ones deeply involved with it. The motives behind it are all well and good but when I pointed out to him the fact that the authorities do not enforce any rules on OF fans due to their sheer numbers and the fact it might make things kick off more the only response is, “that shouldn’t happen but is ultimately a policing issue”.

 

The OF away fans all stand throughout the game and nothing is done, they sing songs they shouldn’t and nothing is done (by the Scottish authorities), etc. Of course it’s much easier to nick a small clubs fans amongst a tiny crowd for standing up or singing anti-sectarian songs and that has to be a bit of a concern for us, especially as we will likely be the team that Strathclyde’s finest trial any actions out on before taking them to Ibrox or Parkhead.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

Just playing devils advocate.

Could you please change that expression. That reference to My Lord Satan offends my beliefs.

[Woodstock Jag]

Just to be clear here, I think that actual sectarian chanting has no place at football grounds.

 

But I don't think that we should criminalise free speech. This is what the Sectarianism Bill does. It is a total travesty and should be consigned to the shredder.

 

The existing laws are entirely adequate to deal with the behaviour we want to get rid of, through a combination of the police power to eject and issue football banning orders and to charge people with breach of the peace. If anything the BOTP powers are still too broad. What we have here is a lack of willpower on the law-enforcement side.

 

New offences don't make police better.