Eddie Prentice

[McKennan]

I'm not so sure 'blame' does begin and end there, surely fans should be accountable for their actions in the same way the BoD should be accountable for theirs? Ok the BoD are charged with responsibility and I am in agreement with a lot of the criticisms of them, but some of the way this criticism is expressed on here is uncalled for.

 

The BoD were misguided in their belief with regard to projected attendances, and maybe they always have been but imo there is at least 1000 fans missing from Firhill every week. Scottish football has a lot of blame for that but the 'stay-away' fans (as opposed to those who simply cannot make it to games for various reasons) should ask if their actions are in the best interests of the club?

 

 

Well, your first point sort of baffles me. Directors have a legal responsibility to the club and its shareholders. I'm not sure what responsibility the fans - unhappy or otherwise - have that's comparable. That's what I'm getting at, responsibility. Or lack of when the club (the business) is losing a fortune.

 

I also don't understand how fans, some of whom may be shareholders, can come onto a web forum and rip into this, that or the other director when the means of the director's removal are at hand. Maybe that's a responsibility they're shirking when they're getting that het up about it.

 

The attendances call is a difficult one to make. I think folk who've followed Thistle through thick and thin over the past 15 years have decided to be customers rather than fans and walked away. They've had it with unentertaining football and find better matches sitting in the pub or at home, instead of in the pissing rain up the east coast on a winter Saturday.

 

My generation of Jags fans is certainly stepping away. The generation that follows gets world class football at the touch of a button and doesn't know any different.

 

Scottish football has to take some of the responsibility ... there's that word again. I'm away for a nice mug of shutting the f*ck up for a while.

[Steven H]

Well, your first point sort of baffles me. Directors have a legal responsibility to the club and its shareholders. I'm not sure what responsibility the fans - unhappy or otherwise - have that's comparable. That's what I'm getting at, responsibility. Or lack of when the club (the business) is losing a fortune.

 

I also don't understand how fans, some of whom may be shareholders, can come onto a web forum and rip into this, that or the other director when the means of the director's removal are at hand. Maybe that's a responsibility they're shirking when they're getting that het up about it.

 

The attendances call is a difficult one to make. I think folk who've followed Thistle through thick and thin over the past 15 years have decided to be customers rather than fans and walked away. They've had it with unentertaining football and find better matches sitting in the pub or at home, instead of in the pissing rain up the east coast on a winter Saturday.

 

My generation of Jags fans is certainly stepping away. The generation that follows gets world class football at the touch of a button and doesn't know any different.

 

Scottish football has to take some of the responsibility ... there's that word again. I'm away for a nice mug of shutting the f*ck up for a while.

 

me too, but before i do let me just clear up the point that baffled you. I am not saying the levels of 'responsibility' are the same between fans and BoD but the fans should be accountable for there actions as well. Which links to the second point with regard to attendances and to the discussion taking place with regard to the Jags Trust. Apathy rules right now

[McKennan]

Amen.

 

Edited to add: Steven, to whom should the fans be accountable?

Edited July 17, 2010 by McKennan

[Jaggyman]

Does anyone else think it's appropriate or fair to expect Eddie to work for nowt or is it fair that anybody else works for nowt? I'm curious about this, given the number of volunteers who work for the club (that's unpaid to you and I).

 

Just about every moment of your matchday experience involves, in one way or another, unpaid labour. Perhaps a little more focus on and recognition of those people by fans and executives and less chewing over what Eddie earns might help.

 

As to how Thistle minded the no-shows are, in a former life on an earlier forum it was pointed out that the club is in danger of turning fans into customers. Fans don't walk away, customers do when they don't get what they want, and there's a fine line between.

 

Dont like going down this route, i for example have been a season ticket holder for 25 years or so hardly missing any home games. I am now unemployed and may not be able to make many games this season. Thats makes me a no show but does it make me any more less thistle minded than someone who is lucky enough to able to attend

[Jaggyman]

Hadn't replied earlier as other had done so for me.

 

But you are doing just what you accuse others of doing - making a statement without knowing. Now I don't know what he does either but I do know it sometimes seems he doesn't do it competently - e.g. delays with the Centenary Fund, the problems setting it up when volunteers in the Jags Trust had done it competently for years.

 

Do we see any added value from what he does compared to how things ran before he did it?

 

This is also part of the Board's general attitude - they must be aware of many fans' attutude towards this yet, like with everything else never try to explain - anything. Is that because they can't be arsed, have contempt for us or is it we wouldn' like the explanation?

 

I don't offfer any answers only making the point that they are not selling biscuits or whatever and is up to us whether we buy or not. They are supposed to be custodians for OUR club, the one we support and we ought to get a better attitude from them than we do.

 

Where in my post do i accuse anyone of anything?

[McKennan]

Dont like going down this route, i for example have been a season ticket holder for 25 years or so hardly missing any home games. I am now unemployed and may not be able to make many games this season. Thats makes me a no show but does it make me any more less thistle minded than someone who is lucky enough to able to attend

 

Who gets to decide what makes a good fan? Is there a points card? The days of attending games at all costs are long gone. Most fans feel they have some kind of obligation to the club, probably an emotional one. Sometimes the money to go just isn't there. That's life, and it makes the times when you're there and they're good all the better.

[Jaggyman]

Who gets to decide what makes a good fan? Is there a points card? The days of attending games at all costs are long gone. Most fans feel they have some kind of obligation to the club, probably an emotional one. Sometimes the money to go just isn't there. That's life, and it makes the times when you're there and they're good all the better.

 

Well said

[little_miss_jag]

Does anyone else think it's appropriate or fair to expect Eddie to work for nowt or is it fair that anybody else works for nowt? I'm curious about this, given the number of volunteers who work for the club (that's unpaid to you and I).

 

Just about every moment of your matchday experience involves, in one way or another, unpaid labour. Perhaps a little more focus on and recognition of those people by fans and executives and less chewing over what Eddie earns might help.

 

 

I volunteer but I get free entry to the game as a thanks,I think most people who volunteer do it for the love of the club nothing else, I am not doing it to hear thanks from anybody 2bh! A few hours "unpaid labour" on every other Saturday tho, I don't think can be compared to Eddie working full time and taking a wage? Can it?

[Willjag]

I volunteer but I get free entry to the game as a thanks,I think most people who volunteer do it for the love of the club nothing else, I am not doing it to hear thanks from anybody 2bh! A few hours "unpaid labour" on every other Saturday tho, I don't think can be compared to Eddie working full time and taking a wage? Can it?

You have to look at it as value for money though. Over the course of a year you will be paid in the region of £300- £400 in kind by the Club. Clearly the job your doing is good value for money for the Club at that rate. The question you then have to ask yourself is, "is Eddie Prentice doing 100 times more than I am for the same amount of money (cash)?"

 

The Board didn't think so and he was relieved of the position. I don't know if he's getting paid anything now or not, if not, then thanks for your efforts Eddie.

[Steven H]

Amen.

 

Edited to add: Steven, to whom should the fans be accountable?

 

Themselves. To decide not to go purely out of contempt at whichever board member(s), or decisions taken that they disagree with, is up to the individual fan but by asking if their actions are really in the best interest of the Club then they are being accountable for their own actions imo. If they then answer yes to the question I for one would like to know how.

 

To be clear, I am distinguishing between fans who can't go but want to and those who can go but choose not to out of some sort of protest against the current BoD.

[Hot Shot]

To Steven H

 

Before I say anything, totally understand the point you are making about fans staying away are not acting in the best interests of the club, clearly in a situation where we need bums on seats week in week out to generate more income it's a given that not giving that cash is not in the best interests of the club.

 

Don't particularly want to get dragged into this(probably just have) but You're point to me simply isn't valid, not everyone is staying away because of the BOD mistakes over the years, but being there and trying just isn't good enough, yes they are there trying, so f**kin' what? , this isn't a case of people don't like the BOD, the truth of the matter is that Partick Thistle Football Club were a financially sound business ,and over many years since taking the helm it has been run to the point it is now by the same guys, there has to be a cut off point and although i'm sure every fan has a different view of when that cut off point is, I think I can say with complete confidence that the cut off point for supporting the decisions made by this BOD(or at least certain members of it)came and went a long time ago, to me it's an absolute joke to defend their corner by saying at least they are there and trying.

 

Like the dentist analogy, if you hired a builder to build a house, and no matter how much he tried and done his best he simply wasn't good enough,and knowing that much of his work has actually made your new house a bigger shambles than thought possible, would you continue to let him do it just because he was there and trying his best? I seriously doubt it.

[Steven H]

To Steven H

 

Before I say anything, totally understand the point you are making about fans staying away are not acting in the best interests of the club, clearly in a situation where we need bums on seats week in week out to generate more income it's a given that not giving that cash is not in the best interests of the club.

 

Don't particularly want to get dragged into this(probably just have) but You're point to me simply isn't valid, not everyone is staying away because of the BOD mistakes over the years, but being there and trying just isn't good enough, yes they are there trying, so f**kin' what? , this isn't a case of people don't like the BOD, the truth of the matter is that Partick Thistle Football Club were a financially sound business ,and over many years since taking the helm it has been run to the point it is now by the same guys, there has to be a cut off point and although i'm sure every fan has a different view of when that cut off point is, I think I can say with complete confidence that the cut off point for supporting the decisions made by this BOD(or at least certain members of it)came and went a long time ago, to me it's an absolute joke to defend their corner by saying at least they are there and trying.

 

Like the dentist analogy, if you hired a builder to build a house, and no matter how much he tried and done his best he simply wasn't good enough,and knowing that much of his work has actually made your new house a bigger shambles than thought possible, would you continue to let him do it just because he was there and trying his best? I seriously doubt it.

 

So because I am not slating them Im defending them? Im saying quite clearly that my problem is people going nuts about how the board are ruining the Club (and I agree they are)while at the same time backing fans who have decided to stay away or minimise their support for the club because of the board. Thats different from defending the BoD. By 'trying' I mean they are doing something, what are those who choose to stay away doing?

 

In response to your analogy, of course I wouldn't, Id sack him. Id also get rid of some of the board at our club but I dont have that power (we as a group of fans might tho if we showed our worth instead of crowing on here about how much of a disgrace such and such is). Time to stand up and be counted imo and Ive been saying that for months, Im sick and tired saying it but the only people who can enforce change is the fans and to do that we need to show how much support we have to offer the Club.

 

If you want my thoughts on our BoD (of which I have given very little) then we'll need to go for a beer or something because I won't be revealing them on here .

[Hot Shot]

Fair doos and I admit my own choice of words wasn't great, the point I was trying to make wasn't so much wether you or anyone else was defending them, just that I think it's ridiculous to even give them any kind of credit at all because they are there trying while other fans like to talk but do nothing, I do agree with you on many points, I agree as fans we have choices and it's one thing to shout about it on the internet and another to actually even attempt to do something about it.

 

There ARE people at the club that should be recognised for being there and doing what they can to contribute, folk like yourself that volunteer time and effort on matchday , and folk doing far more than that as employees, it just seemed to me when reading that a comparison was being made between fans staying away and therefore not acting in the best interest of the club, and those that are at the club who are at least doing something, it read to me that the latter was being portrayed as being more to the benefit of the club, to which it's very clear is not always the case, the worst offenders sitting directly at the top of the tree.

 

I dislike the board on various levels, not all levels ,but many, and i'm not shy when it comes to ripping into them but my intentions were not to board bash for the sake of board bashing ,I didn't agree with that comparison as I interpreted it, apologies if i'm confusing the issue with bad choice of words.

[Steven H]

Fair doos and I admit my own choice of words wasn't great, the point I was trying to make wasn't so much wether you or anyone else was defending them, just that I think it's ridiculous to even give them any kind of credit at all because they are there trying while other fans like to talk but do nothing, I do agree with you on many points, I agree as fans we have choices and it's one thing to shout about it on the internet and another to actually even attempt to do something about it.

 

There ARE people at the club that should be recognised for being there and doing what they can to contribute, folk like yourself that volunteer time and effort on matchday , and folk doing far more than that as employees, it just seemed to me when reading that a comparison was being made between fans staying away and therefore not acting in the best interest of the club, and those that are at the club who are at least doing something, it read to me that the latter was being portrayed as being more to the benefit of the club, to which it's very clear is not always the case, the worst offenders sitting directly at the top of the tree.

 

I dislike the board on various levels, not all levels ,but many, and i'm not shy when it comes to ripping into them but my intentions were not to board bash for the sake of board bashing ,I didn't agree with that comparison as I interpreted it, apologies if i'm confusing the issue with bad choice of words.

 

Nah your doing what I thought and linking the two issues, the problem wi forums is its hard to be completely clear on what Im saying so I did expect people to think I was making comparisons but Im not. In my mind the two issues aren't linked other than fans deciding not to support the Club due to the BoD incompetences. Do the BoD deserve criticism? Yes. Do the fans who choose to stay away deserve to be criticised? Yes for the reasons they stay away. Do both deserve the same level of criticism? No, not imo.

 

My thinking is solely on what is in the best interests of the Club and both groups discussed are failing in that regard...infact many of us are to a certain extent, myself included.

 

Oh and I no longer work for the Club on matchdays and the irony of that, given the discussion on this thread, will be clear to the few who know why that is

[Hot Shot]

with you now

 

On that note ,what I will say then is that in my own personal opinion i'd refrain from directing critism at those fans who choose to stay away because of certain board members and the way they run PTFC, despite the absence of their cash not being in PTFCs best interest. Just IMO mind you

 

Although they could well be critisised for shouting the odds on the internet but doing nothing about in reality.

[erzamacaroonbars]

Well it looks like Steve H and Hot Shot have now disected the problem and I think the points you both come up with are exactly the point! Quite apart from the quality of job and getting paid for it that the directors do, and not just Mr Pretntice, its the reaction of fans thats the point. Now I believe everybody has a right to an oopinion and to take whatever action, but if you truley believe the BoD are doing a bad job (and I think most folk on here to one degree or another think this is the case)then perhaps rather than walking away they should do something. There have been numerous posts on here suggesting a combined effort but even the response to those are minimal compared to the pages given to critisism.

[McKennan]

I volunteer but I get free entry to the game as a thanks,I think most people who volunteer do it for the love of the club nothing else, I am not doing it to hear thanks from anybody 2bh! A few hours "unpaid labour" on every other Saturday tho, I don't think can be compared to Eddie working full time and taking a wage? Can it?

 

That depends - if you're a volunteer medic and you're equipped to save lives you're certainly higher in my estimation that a gladhander at hospitality. Joking apart, if every volunteer walked away from Firhill at 1pm on a Saturday, like the fat bloke says, go compare.

[McKennan]

Themselves. To decide not to go purely out of contempt at whichever board member(s), or decisions taken that they disagree with, is up to the individual fan but by asking if their actions are really in the best interest of the Club then they are being accountable for their own actions imo. If they then answer yes to the question I for one would like to know how.

 

To be clear, I am distinguishing between fans who can't go but want to and those who can go but choose not to out of some sort of protest against the current BoD.

 

 

Okay, I can see where you're coming from on that. Let me ask you about the part of your statement I highlighted in bold. Do you feel there's never a time when a fan should withdraw her support because of the conduct of the club's executives?

[Vladimir Putin]

 

 

Like the dentist analogy, if you hired a builder to build a house, and no matter how much he tried and done his best he simply wasn't good enough,and knowing that much of his work has actually made your new house a bigger shambles than thought possible, would you continue to let him do it just because he was there and trying his best? I seriously doubt it.

 

This is not a realistic compasion. If you hired a builder to build you a house and it became clear he didn't know what he was doing, of course you would get rid of him and bring in someone else - choosing from the large number of builders out there who would be happy to step in. Our problem with the board is that there is nobody else out there ready to step in. In a situation like ours you have to consider the alternatives, and we (unlike someone building a house) don't have any.

[northernsoul]

This is not a realistic compasion. If you hired a builder to build you a house and it became clear he didn't know what he was doing, of course you would get rid of him and bring in someone else - choosing from the large number of builders out there who would be happy to step in. Our problem with the board is that there is nobody else out there ready to step in. In a situation like ours you have to consider the alternatives, and we (unlike someone building a house) don't have any.

 

This is mentioned time and again. How do we know this for definite? We don't, and before anyone starts the usual "knight in shining armour" stuff, I highely doubt there is one out there, but theres always a possibility.

 

With regards to fresh investment, I remember back on .net one poster said that a buisness offered to invest £40k into the playing budget and Cowan never got back to him. Read into that what you want but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Just like it wouldn't surprise me that certain members on the board have lied to the fans regarding new investors if it meant that their positions were under threat.

 

After all were all used to the constant patronising comments coming out of Cowans mouth, aren't we?

[Steven H]

Okay, I can see where you're coming from on that. Let me ask you about the part of your statement I highlighted in bold. Do you feel there's never a time when a fan should withdraw her support because of the conduct of the club's executives?

 

Its a personal choice I suppose, but if it was me I'd look at other ways to deal with the issue.

[Mad Mull Jag]

This is mentioned time and again. How do we know this for definite? We don't, and before anyone starts the usual "knight in shining armour" stuff, I highely doubt there is one out there, but theres always a possibility.

 

With regards to fresh investment, I remember back on .net one poster said that a buisness offered to invest £40k into the playing budget and Cowan never got back to him. Read into that what you want but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Just like it wouldn't surprise me that certain members on the board have lied to the fans regarding new investors if it meant that their positions were under threat.

 

After all were all used to the constant patronising lies coming out of Cowans mouth, aren't we?

 

Until a realistic concrete alternative to the current BOD is indentified, to allow supporters to either back it or condem it, then we are always goign to trot out the old there is no white knight/how do you know there isnt arguement, it does the arguement around the BOD no favours and doesnt move the arguement on anything.

 

If the .net poster would be able to identity the said businessman , i would be inclined to belive it , but yet again it is an unsubstantiated rumour around investment in the club.

 

If the BOD are lying re investors how havent these investors come out in public and said we were knocked backed, this is what i plan to do etc, or gone around the BOD to the Bank cause ultimately they will make the decison on what happends at Firhill

Edited July 18, 2010 by Mad Mull Jag

[McKennan]

This is not a realistic compasion. If you hired a builder to build you a house and it became clear he didn't know what he was doing, of course you would get rid of him and bring in someone else - choosing from the large number of builders out there who would be happy to step in. Our problem with the board is that there is nobody else out there ready to step in. In a situation like ours you have to consider the alternatives, and we (unlike someone building a house) don't have any.

 

I disagree. I think the builder is a valid and realistic comparison. If you engage someone in a job of work - be it as an executive of a football club or someone to renew the roof on your house - you are entitled to have your job done competently. If the roof is not watertight you get the builder back and see that it's done properly. If the executive fails in her job and the club is not making a profit for its shareholders there will be a series of warnings and penalties in place.

 

The builder's client and the club's shareholders' interests are protected by law.

 

If someone is not doing their job properly, you cannot afford to keep them. It's that simple. When was the last time Thistle made a profit? I said it earlier in the thread (or was it another?), the club's shareholders are the ones who can remove people from the board. If they don't act then they're satisfied with losing money and the eventual closure of the club.

[McKennan]

Its a personal choice I suppose, but if it was me I'd look at other ways to deal with the issue.

 

 

Then you are a far more patient and tolerant person. Arguably, that would make you a better fan of the club.

[chapwithwings]

Themselves. To decide not to go purely out of contempt at whichever board member(s), or decisions taken that they disagree with, is up to the individual fan but by asking if their actions are really in the best interest of the Club then they are being accountable for their own actions imo. If they then answer yes to the question I for one would like to know how.

 

To be clear, I am distinguishing between fans who can't go but want to and those who can go but choose not to out of some sort of protest against the current BoD.

 

So you'd rather that people meekly went along to the terrapin every two weeks, handed over their sixteen quid, bough their programme and their pie and bovril, and sat on their hands while the squad is reduced, staff are cut, the ground is semi-bulldozed and the support treated with borderline contempt? Yes, that's being Thistle minded. Let's all get shirts with Nero printed on the back while we're at it, eh?

 

Presumably in your book as well the FCUM guys should never have set up the club, and the folk buying green and yellow scarves to wear to Old Trafford should swap them for officially branded club merchandise in case their actions put United further into debt.

 

If a supporter feels strongly enough that they choose not to go watch the club they've seen every year, week in week out, because they object to the way it's being run (or in this case, run into the ground), it's because making an economic protest is just about the only option remaining now.

 

Finger pointing and accusations of not acting in the club's best interest - the old Thistle-minded argument again - does nobody any favours. It shouldn't be a case of 'you're staying away, you're ruining the club', it should be a case of 'why are you staying away, and what would bring you back again?'.