[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

Strange lack of prominence given by the BBC to the huge NO campaign rally taking place through Edinburgh just now - especially in light of the alacrity with which they have been acting as a mouthpiece for said campaign. Does anyone know if today's rally was the reason for the New Rainjurs game being switched to last night?

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

Not really a non-sequitor if the underlying premises are around the political and economic direction that westminster has taken since thatcher has led to the kind of rising inequality that leads to the phenomena of more foodbanks. When one looks at whats on offer between the parties there is no divergence from the neoliberal consensus and thus corresponding prospects of an increasing immiseration amongst those of us who haven't done well out of the post thatcher years.

 

I think what motivates a lot of people to vote yes is the possibility of shifting policies in a different direction and the powers that exist within develotion are probably not suitable for going in that direction. (for example welfare policy is a reserved matter). Going towards a beveridge style welfare state including full employment is most definately not possible under devolution.

 

Now whether such choices are also constrained by wider 'structural' matters is another question, but even if one accepts that there are constraints from the way the global economy is structured, this does not negate the idea that national soverignty should be used in a fashion that at least amilierates the social ramifications of such policies or indeed challenges such a state of affair (albeit as a small nation with limited clout in the international arena). For those of us who are motivated by such concerns there are absolutly no prospects of such policy directions being undertaken in the UK.

 

As for all the chat on this forum about the overarching need to 'balance the books' as the only worthy imperative of consideration for economic policy - all i can say is no thanks! If keynsianism is totally unsustainable, fair dos but id much rather start looking for alternative ways of going about how we produce and distrubute our goods and service rather than the ideas we have in circulation at the moment in westminster.

 

Great stuff Mr D!!

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

sorry you think it is deliberate lol as opposed you you and Jaggernaut who always put out straight facts...not.

 

i only ask a simple question of the yes camp, which is show me why we would be better off independent, something that they have singularly failed to do.

 

The OECD certainly thinks so.in terms of GDP per capita (as of March 2014)..

 

1 Luxembourg $89,417

2 Norway $66,135

3 Switzerland $53,641

4 United States $51,689

5 Australia $44,407

6 Austria $44,141

7 Ireland $43,803

8 Netherlands $43,348

9 Sweden $42,874

10 Denmark $42,787

11 Canada $42,114

12 Germany $41,923

13 Belgium $40,838

14 Scotland (Onshore + geog oil) $39,642

15 Finland $39,160

16 Iceland $39,097

17 France $36,933

18 United Kingdom $35,671

19 Japan $35,482

20 Italy $34,143

21 New Zealand $32,847

22 Spain $32,551

23 Israel $31,364

24 Korea $30,011

25 Slovenia $28,482

26 Czech Republic $27,522

27 Slovak Republic $25,848

28 Portugal $25,802

29 Greece $25,586

30 Estonia $24,260

31 Poland $22,783

32 Hungary $22,635

33 Chile $21,486

34 Turkey $18,315

35 Mexico $17,019

 

Then again Johann did say that we did not have the genetic blueprint for self governance - even with the economic advantage that independence offers us!! Others in the NO camp have been send out a strong message to our international trading partners that we are an economic basket case. That will really help consolidate our place on the world stage no matter the result of the referendum.

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

So currency union now fully denied I await plan B from Alec with baited breath

 

So that the mess in Iraq today may in any way be connected to Britain's illegal invasion of 2003 (100,000 lives later at a conservative estimate) now fully denied by Blair (oh what a fear that we may possibly lose our 'influence' in the world by having our own distinctive voice). I await plan B from the 'sainted' Westminster (that we are governed by the House of Lords alone is a disgrace!) with bated (not baited) breath.

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

ahh now the cop out, yes they can give us information on how much things would cost and how taxation rates..in fact they have on business tax, you have had decades to come up with a workable plans yet all we have got so far were either un costed promises or wild fantasy talk that even swinny has admitted was not the case.

 

I think this wisdom must form a core component of the British values curriculum that Dave Cameron wants in our schools...we could maybe also conduct a consultation exercise, over Ibrox way, with the fans of New Rainjurs to ensure that their views are central to this curriculum.

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

If you want to see REAL poverty go to some of these countries

 

I don’t WANT to see REAL poverty – I see it in work every day – in an ever increasing volume! I’d better get off to work now to see this illusory poverty that we have in Scotland – this is becoming like the Four Yorkshiremen sketch from Monty Python – remember that?

 

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:

Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 't gravel, work twenty hours a day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

And you try and tell that to the young people of today ..... they won't believe you.

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

Its not continuing to peddle fear it is reality, companies will invest where they believe their cash is secure, which means in a country with a stable currency, known tax laws and rates, known import / export regs and costs.

 

The countries I can see that have went independent in the last 20 years in Europe, or recently joined the EU are

 

Czech Republic which had an established large manufacturing capacity and not high wages €900 a month and unemployment of 8%

Slovakia has excelled since the velvet revolution with a wage ave of €650 and an unemployment of 13%

Serbia was separated after the war and now has an average wage of €550 and unemployment level of 20%

Bosnia & Herzegovina again separated after the war in the Balkans has an average wage of €500 a month with an unemployment rate of 45%

Kosovo average wage €364 of with unemployment of 30% and 45% below the poverty line

Romania average wage of €685 with unemployment of 7%, due to the low wage and massive amount of universities (100,000 students in Cluj alone) lots of companies have moved there

 

Scotland average wage of €2400 a month with unemployment of 7%

 

All of these countries have higher unemployment than Scotland (Some frighteningly high) and significantly lower wages, all of these countries also got massive levels of investment from the EU, UN etc after they entered the EU or separated after a war, for a foreign company they are encouraged to go there by the EU and due to the ridiculous low labor costs, high level of education it is incredibly tempting.

 

All these countries were also ex communist states

Maybe those countries should give up their sovereignty to Westminster and join us over here in proudly waving our Union Flag in order to 'enjoy' the economic miracle delivered by Darling and Osbourne. Surrounded by food banks, driving through areas of abject poverty and living in a country that is about to 'boast' the lowest life expectancy in Western Europe (those pesky ex Communist countries are fair catching up with us on that one as well) will surely sell the benefits of Union to them! Westminter really delivers.....for some.

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

Thats like me offering you a new job, but not telling you the hours,pay, position and conditions till after you have quit your old one and started with this new fantastic one I've offered you

 

Which of course is in sheer contrast to the clarity offered on our future by the NO camp - the Tory offer of new powers (that kills off the Barnett Formula - which corrects some of the discrepancy that has seen us as net contributors to the UK treasury in every financial year since 1978 - and will lead to an NHS in Scotland funded on the same basis as the rUK), the Lib Dem version (unlikely to go anywhere as they are finished) or Johan's version that enhances powers over the issuing of dog licences? or will it be like 1979 when, in spite of the fact that we voted for devolution, we didn't get it and the enhanced version on offer from the Tories never came to pass? both the new job offered AND the existing one involve risk. For me it comes down to the type of society that we want to live in - hopefully one where I don't have to listen a monarch talk about equality in her speech to parliament!!

["bp Boss Warns Of 'uncertainties' Due To Scottish Vote"]

Any answers yet on what will happen with the following

• Passports
  
• Cross-border taxation (As happens with NI and the Eire, and Sweden and Norway)
  
• Cross-border pensions (As happens currently between 2 different countries in the EU), with double dip taxing
  
• Immigration, Salmond has stated he wants to grow the country to 6 million, now that will impact the rUK if Scotland is seen as a fast track to the island and possibly Europe.
  
• Defense contracts which put a hell of a lot of money to the Scottish economy, through the likes of Rolls, BAE etc, the UK has always attempted to where possible have its defense manufacturing within the UK and I am sure the rUK will do the same.
  
• Currency, what will we trade in?? The rUK have said no to sterling and the EU have stated membership will not be automatic, or will we go with a "Panama Dollar" scenario
  

 

 

Any answers yet on

• Whether or not we will retain the Barnet Formula
  
• What the mysterious 'guaranteed' new powers are that the Lab-Con partners have agreed on for the Scottish Parliament
  
• How the democratic deficits, of the West Lothian question or the fact that we don't vote Tory but end up with Tory governments, will shape up in Dave and Gideon's 'good cop bad cop' future
  
• Will we still be in the EU after the in-out referendum in 2017 that could remove us from the grasp of the evil 'johnny foreigner'
  

or even

 

Will we finish above Ross County or St Mirren - at least (most of us can agree) in this regard - in Archie we trust!!

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

Given the intervention from little Gideon Osbourne has led to an increase in the Yes vote, I wonder what Project Fear has up its sleeves for us next. Will they stick with Capt Darling - the financial wizard who brought every family in Scotland the largest sovereign debt in Europe? - under the Union!! Will they dream up some other horror stories? - earthquakes, flooding etc etc

[Just Say Yes]

Thought I'd get the debate going again - apologies for the referendum weary!! Are there any actual positive messages to be given by the NO campaign? As far as I can see it:

• We should be proud of people like Dave Cameron being the representative of us 'Jocks' on the international stage.
  
• In spite of being a resource rich nation, democratic and potentially very wealthy we would be thrown out of (i) NATO (ii) the Commonwealth (iii) Europe (iv) sterling - even though we could throw the rest of the UK out of sterling - it is OUR currency.
  
• Our pensions would be destroyed - eh I am currently suffering BIG time from Better Together ripping off of my pension to fund tax cuts to the super rich.
  

The people who annoy me are those who go abroad and describe themselves as 'Scottish' whilst being totally committed to being a Brit when it comes to the vote. If we vote NO I will always describe 'Scotland' as 'North Britain' (we will have voted for it) when I am abroad - whilst seeing if I can change my passport to a country that can stand up for itself (Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Luxembourg, Switzerland.....etc).

 

Can any New Labour supporter really tell me how being ruled by the Tories from Westminster is Better Together?

[One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.]

Yes

[Just Say Yes]

Given the independence would bring powers over (i) the economy (ii) foreign policy & (iii) defence under the control of Edinburgh, it would be interesting to look at the 'achievements' of a Better Together approach over the last ten years:

 

(i) Darling's economic mess, a failed austerity response and retirement age for those of us in the public sector rising from 60 to 68.

(ii) Iraq, Afghanistan... need I say more

(iii) Aircraft carriers without aircraft. Twenty five billion on Trident MkII

 

I can see why Better Together want to concentrate on creating worries through scare stories about independence rather than defend their own position. A once in a lifetime opportunity to get rid of the Tories and people are worried.

 

If you want to make this about football - why should Scotland have an 'international' football team when its people see see it in the same league as Humberside or Cornwall - a region of Great Britain!!