To My Friends In Labour

[ScottyDFA]

[ScottyDFA]

What a bunch we Scots are, eh!

 

We get all worked up singing "Flower of Scotland", which includes the words "when will we see your like again, that fought and diedfor your wee bit hill and glen..."

 

Then, when we are presented with the opportunity to win self-determination without firing a shot, half of us are shitting ourselves.

[kni]

What a bunch you SNP trolls are eh? You have posted that inanity on every thread.

 

As posted in reply to you on other threads, Scotland can't have self-determination if it is in the EU or uses rUk's Pound.

[ScottyDFA]

Scotland is in the EU and using the UK pound at present...

 

What's your argument?

[kni]

Scotland is in the EU and using the UK pound at present...

 

What's your argument?

 

Scotland would have to leave the EU to avoid implementing the EU-US Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. It's a European Commission, not a Tory, initiative. It will apply to Scotland before "independence day" and afterwards If and when Scotland is a EU Member.

 

A Yes vote will not stop NHS "privatisation" if the TTIP is signed. Only EU exit, after independence or as part of the UK, will allow Scotland to escape the TTIP. As Salmond is committed to Scotland joining the EU, UK exit following a referendum could be a more effective means of stopping NHS "privatisation".

Edited September 17, 2014 by kni

[Blackpool Jags]

^ ^ There is a wider and more fundamental question, that of democracy itself, which should be considered when we take a look at the situation which has given rise to current, and future, greater expansion of, NHS privatisation. The fact that the NHS is now hostage to the Any Qualified Provider (AQP) criterion - initially set out as 'Any Willing Provider (AWP)! - when considering tendering out any of its services, is down to the fetid Health & Social Care Act, introduced by the then Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley. This revolutionary bill was not made reference to in the Tory manifesto, went way beyond what even Thatcher could have wished for and was only enacted with the collusion of the ultra-malleable Cleggites. It is universally despised across the NHS spectrum from clinicians to Trade Unions to managers to a host of other stakeholder groups.

 

None of this would be possible in any other modern, democratic state. Scotland has a glistening opportunity to cut free, once and for all, from the shackles of the Tory maggots who infest democracy and disable it

 

What an alluring prospect.

[ScottyDFA]

I hear you, Kni - but what you appear to be pointing up is that the NHS-privatisation-EU-TTIP situation is a mess that Scotland is mired in because it is part of the EU (as part of the UK).

 

Would an iScotland government (within the EU) have arrogantly ignored calls for the NHS to have been exempted?

 

We can get into all sorts of discussions about what iScotland-style independence means relative to Swiss-style independence, etc., and the relative merits of both - all of that discussion lies in wait if we have a yes vote tomorrow; but the wider issue here is what our situation is now relative to what it could be if we vote yes. Having government that more accurately reflects the values of the population it represents surely can't be a bad thing.

[The Devil's Point]

Scotland has a glistening opportunity to cut free, once and for all, from the shackles of the Tory maggots who infest democracy and disable it

 

Well vote No then!

 

You can't give up on your beliefs now.

 

In 1939, 'the few' went up to save Great Britain. In 2014, we should appreciate the fact we have pretty safe airports.

[kni]

I hear you, Kni - but what you appear to be pointing up is that the NHS-privatisation-EU-TTIP situation is a mess that Scotland is mired in because it is part of the EU (as part of the UK).

 

Would an iScotland government (within the EU) have arrogantly ignored calls for the NHS to have been exempted?

 

We can get into all sorts of discussions about what iScotland-style independence means relative to Swiss-style independence, etc., and the relative merits of both - all of that discussion lies in wait if we have a yes vote tomorrow; but the wider issue here is what our situation is now relative to what it could be if we vote yes. Having government that more accurately reflects the values of the population it represents surely can't be a bad thing.

 

The UK Government can't have healthcare exempted from the TTIP as the EU Commission negotiates the terms with the US on behalf of all the Member States. An independent Scotland, if in the EU, would have been required to ignore the calls to exempt healthcare too.

 

It is the SNP that is arrogantly trying to tell the EU that its Treaties and laws must be broken to allow Scotland to join without going through the application and accession process. Salmond is trying to deceive voters on the key EU issues, such as the requirement for new Members to join the Eurozone and Schengen Area.

 

We are not being asked to say Yes to real independence and self-determination tomorrow. The reality is that we are being asked vote to give even more power and control of our currency, economy, healthcare, public services, laws, courts and borders to 28 other countries.

[Norgethistle]

Scotland is in the EU and using the UK pound at present...

 

What's your argument?

 

Im in the family house using the wife credit card...... what happens when I walk out on her tomorrow??

 

(For the avoidance of doubt this is a made up scenario, I'm not married and my girlfriend wouldn't let me use her credit card)

Edited September 17, 2014 by Norgethistle

[Guy Incognito]

Scotland would have to leave the EU to avoid implementing the EU-US Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. It's a European Commission, not a Tory, initiative. It will apply to Scotland before "independence day" and afterwards If and when Scotland is a EU Member.

 

A Yes vote will not stop NHS "privatisation" if the TTIP is signed. Only EU exit, after independence or as part of the UK, will allow Scotland to escape the TTIP. As Salmond is committed to Scotland joining the EU, UK exit following a referendum could be a more effective means of stopping NHS "privatisation".

 

Kni, things like TTIP make me think you are right to distrust the EU. However, my understanding of TTIP is that the NHS only be vulnerable to it (if vulnerable is the right word, I suspect it is) if it has already been opened up to the private sector. In England it has. In fact, the NHS in England is no longer run by the government, it is run by various NHS trusts. This has not happened in Scotland, and so we could still protect our health service from TTIP - even if we are in the EU - provided our government do not open it up to private industry.

 

I would argue, then, that if we remain in the UK, if Holyrood remains reliant on Westminster funding - which is looking highly likely to be cut - then we may have no choice but to sell parts of the NHS off to private contractors, thus making us susceptible to TTIP.

[kni]

^ The EU Commission decides, on behalf of all Member States, which sectors to which the TTIP applies. That was the case with other FTAs. If you are in the EU, foreign trade policy is decided by the Commission. My understanding is that there are no opt-outs by sector for Member States. The EU does not like opt-outs, especially Britain's.

 

Funding is a complex matter but Holyrood, under existing rules, could guarantee current spending levels for NHS Scotland. The role of private contractors would be decided by iScotland and, if a Member, the EU under the laws of the Single Market. The EU currently has a lot of powers on healthcare, e.g. pharmaceuticals and staff hours. The private healthcare sector has a huge market share in other EU countries.