Meister Jag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 No problem signing this and the others. I think I'll be having a look at my shares portfolio and asking my broker to invest heavily in the ink and related writing implements sector. Would seem that pens and paper might shortly be back in vogue - thinking all these anti-cuts petitions etc that I'm signing these days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 When you've signed the other petition, you can register you're disgust at the Tories intervention on behalf of Vodafone here... here http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/2010/10/vodafone-rebukes-tax-claim/ and i presume by your silence you are happy with the chuckle brothers and labour useing public money on advisers so they could save on tax? i want ALL loop holes closed and blame ALL parties, not just the ones i dont like, unlike some before people get on there high horse they want to look at there parties first and in labours case why in 13 years they did nothing...... oh thats right because it did not suit there needs at the time, pot and kettle jumps to mind with some people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 i want ALL loop holes closed and blame ALL parties, not just the ones i dont like, unlike some ...and I presume you have therefore signed the petition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 ...and I presume you have therefore signed the petition? No, for the reasons given before, they are obviously anti Tory. Set up a petition that includes all parties and I will happily sign This illusion that labour wants to close the loop holes is fiction, if they were that bothered why did they not do it when they were in power. Its double standards and hypocrisy at its best or worst, you pick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 The question has nothing to do with Labour jaggybunnet, it is to do with the Chancellor telling us that we are all in this together when it comes to cuts yet taking measures to avoid paying his share. The Tory party, whether you like to admit it or not, is the most self serving organisation known to man. How can anyone be expected to take a man who has such double standards seriously. Please don't play the Labour are just as bad card (my feelings on Labour - particularly Scottish Labour are well known) What is Osbourne going to come out with next? Let them eat cake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Its double standards and hypocrisy at its best or worst, you pick Oh don't be so hard on yourself. You're obvious pro-tory stance is blinding you to the blatant hypocrisy, but there's really no need to beat yourself up so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 The question has nothing to do with Labour jaggybunnet, it is to do with the Chancellor telling us that we are all in this together when it comes to cuts yet taking measures to avoid paying his share. The Labour/SNP party, whether you like to admit it or not, is the most self serving organisation known to man. How can anyone be expected to take a man who has such double standards seriously. Please don't play the Labour are just as bad card (my feelings on Labour - particularly Scottish Labour are well known) What is Osbourne going to come out with next? Let them eat cake? why not, I keep saying it but here we go again, Labour (the workers party) had13 years to do it, so why not. fixed that for you Grant ok sorry Grant, just for you, SNP (salmond) are just as bad with a few things rattling in the wardrobe. I might be wrong but is that not a myth and she never actually said it. 38 Degrees is just more poisonous liberal/lefty propaganda who are gutted because the only way they can get in power is to hang onto the tails of the Tories (lib) or as labour did, turn in to (badly) Tories Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Oh don't be so hard on yourself. You're obvious pro-tory stance is blinding you to the blatant hypocrisy, but there's really no need to beat yourself up so much. nothing blinding me sadly the choice of labour again ment that even though i dont realy like all that the tories say/do i believe labour even less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 nothing blinding me sadly the choice of labour again ment that even though i dont realy like all that the tories say/do i believe labour even less But if you insist you are against loopholes abused by ALL parties, you must think it's ok for the tories if you don't sign the petition. Find one that fits with your opinions of labour and post it on here if you want to "balance up the score". Despite your protestations to the contrary it is clear that your toryism is blinding you to the system abuses by the tories (the flip-side of the same coin you are quick to accuse others of) Saying the whole thing is pro-labour is quite simplistic and naiive (no offence intended btw). There are known labour AND SNP etc voters voicing an opinion here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 But if you insist you are against loopholes abused by ALL parties, you must think it's ok for the tories if you don't sign the petition. Find one that fits with your opinions of labour and post it on here if you want to "balance up the score". Despite your protestations to the contrary it is clear that your toryism is blinding you to the system abuses by the tories (the flip-side of the same coin you are quick to accuse others of) Saying the whole thing is pro-labour is quite simplistic and naiive (no offence intended btw). There are known labour AND SNP etc voters voicing an opinion here. no, i wont sign it due to its obvious anti tory view, when all parties do it, i will happily sign a petion which is A-political and includes everyone. could be wrong but i said it was a LIB/Lefty site not labour, i used labour to point out they were just as bad and they had 13 years to close the loop holes, but didnt. whats wrong with that? i dont want to "balance up the score" i would like for people to admitt that THERE party is just as bad (which they are) as the tories i know, i go to the matches with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 no, i wont sign it due to its obvious anti tory view, when all parties do it, i will happily sign a petion which is A-political and includes everyone. could be wrong but i said it was a LIB/Lefty site not labour, i used labour to point out they were just as bad and they had 13 years to close the loop holes, but didnt. whats wrong with that? i dont want to "balance up the score" i would like for people to admitt that THERE party is just as bad (which they are) as the tories i know, i go to the matches with him Sorry JB but you are just as guilty of hypocrisy as you claim your "lefty/lib" counterparts are. Has someone posted a petition slating Labour for a similar thing you'd have been all over it like pubic lice! Go on..... admit your bias and maybe some of the "lefty/libs" may do likewise. Until then I think its wrong of you to cry "hypocrisy" It's hard to listen to your allegations of the aforementioned hypocrisy when it is clear to any observer that you appear to be the pot calling the kettle in this instance. Just my humble opinion. Not a personal attack by any means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Aargh. Why did I get involved in this??? To put it in the simplest terms possible. Please ignore all other parties and petty points scoring for the purposes of this debate. Do you think it is right that George Osbourne is telling the country to accept cuts while finding tax loopholes for himself in order to benefit his own personal wealth at the expense of the British taxpayer? All other issues are secondary to this question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Wow, what an utterly abhorrent vile tasteless blog. And what it fails to point out is that Vodafone were routing their UK profits through a German subsidiary to avoid UK tax, and that the Tory Govt decided not to consult HMRC litigators before dropping the case. And in the aftermath, Cameron is off globetrotting to promote the firm whilst the UK Treasury has just been duped out of £6BN. Oh yeah, and the Govt is hiring Vodafone execs as Tax advisors now! Hmmmm, what is that smell, cos it's making my nose bleed? A few factual inaccuracies in there. Firstly I'm reasonably certain that the profits were routed through a Luxembourg subsidiary and not a German one, because the corporation tax rate is lower in Luxembourg than here. The "Tory Government" (even that is inaccurate) did not drop the case. HMRC deal with tax bills and not the Government. HMRC issued an initial demand for £6billion. It is normal for HMRC when dealing with complex mergers and other such business activity involving foreign subsidiaries, to issue an initial figure much higher than the tax they actually expect will be due, knowing that there will be a great deal of reluctance on the part of the other party to go through extensive legal proceedings when they could reach a more financially beneficial agreement by negotiation. The problem here was that HMRC, following further proceedings, dropped the demand to £1.2billion. Vodafone had set aside £2.2billion, which to me suggests that if you looked at the letter of the law the actual tax liability if it had gone to the end-game of maximum judicial arbitration, would have come to a figure around that, probably less, possibly a bit more. The fault lies squarely with HMRC and not with the Treasury itself. Even then, the amount of tax that has ACTUALLY been "lost" is in the region of £1-2billion and not £6billion. Tax avoidance is a skill. These avoided taxes are in respect of the failure of the last Labour Government to close the tax loopholes. Now I'm not going to suggest that tax loopholes are easy to close by any stretch of the imagination (quite the contrary, Tax Law is hideously complex) but to blame the current government for the successful avoidance tactics of a company in respect of business activity carried out under the jurisdiction of the previous one is at the least mistaken and at worst disingenuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Aargh. Why did I get involved in this??? To put it in the simplest terms possible. Please ignore all other parties and petty points scoring for the purposes of this debate. Do you think it is right that George Osborne is telling the country to accept cuts while finding tax loopholes for himself in order to benefit his own personal wealth at the expense of the British taxpayer? All other issues are secondary to this question. I have no objection to tax avoidance. It is the legitimate arranging of one's affairs to limit state sanctioned theft. If, however, you do not share my notion of tax, I can see why someone would consider it hypocritical for a policy maker to claim he is cracking down on tax avoidance whilst himself engaging in such activity. I don't believe that the argument about cuts, however, is connected (but it is related). If anyone seriously thinks, however, that marginal differences in George Osborne's personal fortune is going to make a dent in either the budget or structural deficit, they are sorely mistaken. People and companies will always try to limit their tax liability and that is their prerogative. If you accept tax as anything other than state theft, then it follows that the government's role is to make avoidance for its own sake rather than for a legitimate commercial interest as difficult as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Aargh. Why did I get involved in this??? To put it in the simplest terms possible. Please ignore all other parties and petty points scoring for the purposes of this debate. Do you think it is right that George Osbourne is telling the country to accept cuts while finding tax loopholes for himself in order to benefit his own personal wealth at the expense of the British taxpayer? All other issues are secondary to this question. no i dont and have stated that, my problem is with the petition and its all the big bad tories fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 no i dont and have stated that, my problem is with the petition and its all the big bad tories fault. So you accept that a man that is telling us what to do is guilty of a massive bout of hypocracy? He is the guy that is dishing out the medicine for us mortals but refusing to take it himself. You can be damn sure that if this was a Labour politician, the right wing press would hang him out to dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Sorry JB but you are just as guilty of hypocrisy as you claim your "lefty/lib" counterparts are. Has someone posted a petition slating Labour for a similar thing you'd have been all over it like pubic lice! Go on..... admit your bias and maybe some of the "lefty/libs" may do likewise. Until then I think its wrong of you to cry "hypocrisy" It's hard to listen to your allegations of the aforementioned hypocrisy when it is clear to any observer that you appear to be the pot calling the kettle in this instance. Just my humble opinion. Not a personal attack by any means. dont be sorry hamiltonjag its not your fault. No No and i will freely admitt to be being more to the right, 13 years of an inept labour Goverment have seen to that and glad to hear it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 So you accept that a man that is telling us what to do is guilty of a massive bout of hypocracy? He is the guy that is dishing out the medicine for us mortals but refusing to take it himself. You can be damn sure that if this was a Labour politician, the right wing press would hang him out to dry. to be honest, yes my point is that they ALL do it but people cant seem to admit that. he is the guy that is trying to sort out labours mess. do you mean like the ones i posted that were swept under the carpet, as they wouldnt do that would they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 to be honest, yes my point is that they ALL do it but people cant seem to admit that. he is the guy that is trying to sort out labours mess. do you mean like the ones i posted that were swept under the carpet, as they wouldnt do that would they. I'm not on here to defend Labour. I am here to point out the massive damage being inflicted on the country (Scotland) by the Tories and the double standards of Osbourne. He's not setting a good example of sorting out anyone's mess when he is the man who should be leading by example. Strong leadership is being seen to be doing the right thing, not doing a bit of creative accounting. The arrogance of the man is breathtaking. There is, of course, an opportunity to do something about it once and for all at the ballot box early next year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 I'm not on here to defend Labour. I am here to point out the massive damage being inflicted on the country (Scotland) by the Tories and the double standards of Osbourne. He's not setting a good example of sorting out anyone's mess when he is the man who should be leading by example. Strong leadership is being seen to be doing the right thing, not doing a bit of creative accounting. The arrogance of the man is breathtaking. There is, of course, an opportunity to do something about it once and for all at the ballot box early next year... that damage has already been done by labour and due to ( i am sure SNP said they would) SNP putting off the cuts for a year, we will suffer more next year. i will give you 10 out of 10 for effort, unlike the SNP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 I'm not on here to defend Labour. I am here to point out the massive damage being inflicted on the country (Scotland) by the Tories and the double standards of Osbourne. He's not setting a good example of sorting out anyone's mess when he is the man who should be leading by example. Strong leadership is being seen to be doing the right thing, not doing a bit of creative accounting. The arrogance of the man is breathtaking. There is, of course, an opportunity to do something about it once and for all at the ballot box early next year... Curiously the cuts are actually smaller (19%) than those Alistair Darling said Labour would make before the election (20%). I have no idea how much tax Osborne actually saves by the arrangement of his affairs otherwise than would be anticipated, but I'd be surprised if it was the equivalent of 1% difference in departmental spending hence likewise in the Scottish block grant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 (edited) God u labour supporters have short memories. They were the worst govt. ever they destroyed this country. socialism doesnt work because lazy folk just take the piss. hope the tories can clean up their mess Firstly, I'm not a Labour supporter and have rarely voted for them since they kicked me out with a number of, erm, comrades, during the Militant purge. For the record, I wasn't actually a member of the party within a party; I just bought the paper and defended a few of them as I believed them to be good socialists. Some still are and some have been proved to be gobsh**e careerist wee b***ar** of the first order. But I digress... Secondly and I fully accept that this is a matter of opinion and taste, but history has taught us never to trust a Tory. And IMHO, Blair and his project team were but a b*w hair away from Thatcher and her cronies. The Tories are to politics what Fred and Rose West were to the hitch-hiking community. Show them a single parent and they'll show you who is at fault for all that is wrong with our green and pleasant land. Problem is that they want to return it to a green and peasant land... with them owning all the good bits. Finally, I've read some of this stuff and it really is a red rag to a communist; which I'm not incidentally. Okay, everyone is entitled to an opinion but FFS guys: From the minute during the Spending Review Osborne said "we are bringing the economy back from the brink", the bulls**it flowed and it didn't stop flowing. He mentioned "fair" fifteen times in a review that couldn't be further from fair. He kept mentioning "progressive" numerous time when the word he should have been using was regressive. All the time he was spouting this complete and utter sh*t, Alexander and Clegg sat their with smirks on their faces. It was a truly gut wrenching spectacle. To show how "progressive" he was he released a bar chart to suggest that the top ten percent were paying more than all the rest of us. What he didn't mention was the fact that he was actually using tax changing measures brought in by the previous Labour government - measures that were actually broadly progressive. Strip away the Labour measures and the Tories have formulated a spending review so that the bottom 30% will lose more as a percentage than the top ten percent. As ever, they are looking after their own kind. Not much "fairness" in that! Not satisfied in attacking the poorest and and slashing benefits, Osborne then attacked our services as well. The Police Federation says there will be 20,000 less police on the streets to protect us. There will be thousands of less warders to keep prisoners in tow. There will be less courts and less Legal Aid. There will also be three thousand less prisoners, which means there will be more of them released early and on the streets so free to go to Old Firm games. There will be thousands of less firemen. He even told a load a bollocks about the so called increase in education spending. He pointed to the extra money he found for the "Pupil Premium" however after a little investigating it has been found that the money for the "Pupil Premium" has actually come from other cuts from within the education budget, not the extra money he said he'd found. In short, he's an "A" clas bull****er and an even better liar. Oh, and Further Education is being cut by £1.1 billion. I could go on... and I guess I am: However none of the above is as shocking as Osbornes attack on the disabled community. It shows the morals of the entire coalition when they can sit there and smirk, while they are telling people that are on Employment and Support Allowance that they will now only be able to claim it for twelve months and after that will go on a basic job seekers allowance. In basic terms, disabled people will lose between £20 and £40 a week after 12 months depending on how severely disabled they are. Disabled people find it harder to find jobs due to employer discrimination and other problems such as travel issues. If they, and there will be thousands who will, struggle to get a job, after two years they will also get a ten percent cut in their housing benefit. Aye, let the the Tories and their lapdogs sort it out. Fifty two years ago Bevan described them as lower than vermin and said "I have warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were" that warning and description of them is as true now as it was then, what happened during the Spending Review is all the proof you need. Rant over... with apologies to all! Please do not take any offence at anything I've said - use it in place of Horlicks or good whisky. It will help you sleep. Edited October 31, 2010 by Meister Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 I have no idea how much tax Osborne actually saves by the arrangement of his affairs otherwise than would be anticipated, but I'd be surprised if it was the equivalent of 1% difference in departmental spending hence likewise in the Scottish block grant. It's not about whether Osbourne saves a tenner or a million quid from his creative accounting. It is the message that is sent out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it is perfectly OK to avoid paying your fair share while telling others that they have to make big sacrifices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 And there was I thinking that the topic title was sufficiently self-explanatory to deter our Tory diehard friends on here from wheeling out the the usual smoke and mirrors routine to protect their heroes. FFS if you can't manage to bring yourself to admit Osborne's nothing more than a sneering, grubby wee crook then say so and back away from the obvious or simply sign the feckin petition! It's not rocket salad. Btw, crackin post from Meister Jag above. Welcome on board mate. You can see what we progressives are up against on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C.G. JAG Posted November 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 no i dont and have stated that, my problem is with the petition and its all the big bad tories fault. Go and find me a petition that demands all Labour/Lib Dem/SNP/Other politicians, donors and everybody else pay their fair taxes by closing the loopholes and I will sign it. It was wrong for Labour to court the City in the way the did, social responsibility is everyone's responsibility, not just for those who can't afford an accountant to move their money around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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