One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

It's not Alex Salmond that's causing uncertainty - it's the deliberate and disgraceful tactic of the English and the No campaign that's causing the uncertainty.

 

That's politics for you - a dirty business. Hopefully the people of Scotland can see through Project Fear for what it is.

[Norgethistle]

It's not Alex Salmond that's causing uncertainty - it's the deliberate and disgraceful tactic of the English and the No campaign that's causing the uncertainty.

 

That's politics for you - a dirty business. Hopefully the people of Scotland can see through Project Fear for what it is.

 

Or its Salmond offering things he can't give, do you not think he could be wrong??

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Even if we don’t get to keep this damn GBP he won’t be wrong will he? All he’s saying is that’s what our intention is. He is absolutely right and correct to stick with this clear policy – there is no ambiguity about it.

 

You, me and Alex Salmond all ken fine that it may well come to pass that we may not get to keep it. I doubt it very much, but I guess the slim possibility exists.

 

But, as Jim Sillars and independent analysts have all acknowledged – we will be just fine with Plan B if push comes to shove.

 

No campaign leader in their right mind would entertain those who would wish to make headlines with their second best plan. I say well done Alex.

 

Of course, this nonsense is a fantastic smokescreen for the great big dupe. We can see Norway’s ¾ trillion bucks oil fund glistening in the sun from over the sea. Don’t think we cant.

[jaggybunnet]

 

Of course, this nonsense is a fantastic smokescreen for the great big dupe. We can see Norway’s ¾ trillion bucks oil fund glistening in the sun from over the sea. Don’t think we cant.

 

and yet they still have food banks

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Yes, shocking isn’t it? From what I can gather there is a fair bit of discontent over there about how the Norwegian state keeps it fund under lock and key for a rainy day.

 

Hypothetically speaking, if it were to be the Scottish National Party who formed the post-independence government you can be darned sure that wouldn’t happen here. Social justice right up the top of the list.

[jaggybunnet]

Yes, shocking isn’t it? From what I can gather there is a fair bit of discontent over there about how the Norwegian state keeps it fund under lock and key for a rainy day.

 

Hypothetically speaking, if it were to be the Scottish National Party who formed the post-independence government you can be darned sure that wouldn’t happen here. Social justice right up the top of the list.

 

seriously? we cant afford a oil fund

[Mr Scruff]

There's no danger that Scotland would destabilise the British Pound. For a start, the economic outputs of both countries per capita is virtually identical. If anything, it could be the other way about. Like the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands we will be solid partners for the union.

 

In the highly unlikely event that the English government will be able to legally block a deal between Scotland and the Bank of England (who are open minded to the prospect) English businesses would be damaged.

 

Why would two large trading partners tolerate self imposed barriers? Business leaders won't stand for it - on both sides of the border. Despite the threats - it won't happen. The currency union would, and should, go ahead.

All these 'English' refernces in this and your other posts I don't understand.

 

Equally I don't understand those wanting 'independence' under union of currency. Logic (and history) suggests that currency union without fiscal union is a poor setup, and those would need political union to be effective. What the SNP propose is the worst of both worlds. And you already blame the future UK (your English) government for rejecting that if 'independence' happens. Incredible stuff.

 

I'd have more respect for Salmond if he made a case for independence rather than 'independence'.

[Norgethistle]

Yes, shocking isn’t it? From what I can gather there is a fair bit of discontent over there about how the Norwegian state keeps it fund under lock and key for a rainy day.

 

Hypothetically speaking, if it were to be the Scottish National Party who formed the post-independence government you can be darned sure that wouldn’t happen here. Social justice right up the top of the list.

 

The fact is the fund isn't really there, with debts to other nations and institutions wiping a large chunk off it, and that is with all the oil effectively nationalized and owned by the government from well to pump, and they have extracted more than the UK over the years

[MerryHell]

 

 

the fact that Scotland runs at a yearly debt of £8bn (snps own gers numbers)

 

 

For me, this is a reason to vote Yes. The fact that Darling (and I'm assuming he wasn't speaking out of turn) stated that one of the positives for Scotland staying within the UK was that it spent more than it got in and we could only do that because we were part of the UK, kind of smacked of the dodgy economics that got many countries into trouble, and is still affecting us today.

 

I don't celebrate being able to run up a debt.

[Jaggernaut]

the fact that Scotland runs at a yearly debt of £8bn (snps own gers numbers) and this with what we pretty much know about the currency and eu tell me it wont work, if you have information that proves otherwise please feel free to show it.

 

Aw here we go again, back to the "too poor" of unionists' 3-mantra dogma. How much yearly debt does the UK run? Even better, what is the UK's debt? Oh, that's right: around 1.4 TRILLION Pounds.

 

What do we "pretty much know" about currency? You mean in an independent Scotland? We will use Sterling.

 

The "EU" "tells you" that what won't work?

 

Deflection and fabrication. But then we've established that you have previous form.

[Jaggernaut]

Jim Sillars speaks a lot of sense here, but it seems the YES campaign are starting to turn on Salmonds stubbornish just at the time they need to be rallying

 

Don't write nonsense. There is more infinitely more agreement among YES than NO campaigners; the latter "promise" more powers in the event of a "no" vote but won't (can't) say what they will be, or whether they will in fact even be delivered, for a start.

 

Sillars said that Salmond could have used a different approach to deal with Darling's snarling and mumbling. If you take that as "turning on" Salmond then you don't read very deeply.

[Jaggernaut]

By insisting that is what will happen Salmond is causing uncertainty for voters and for businesses alike, at the time when he needs to win them over.

Sillars plan would only be hindered by not being in the EU or EEA where there would be no free trade between Scotland and rUK where Scotlands biggest exports go, yes a trade agreement would be in the interest of all to a great extend, but would rUK make it easier to import from Scotland at risk of rUK business?

 

This dragging up of "business uncertainty" reveals another myth deceitfully peddled by unionists. Read this report last month from the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, who have nothing to do with the SNP or the YES movement, and then come back and tell be that business in Scotland is suffering because of "Salmond."

 

http://www.scottishchambers.org.uk/press-policy/press-releases/2014/07/778

[Jaggernaut]

The fact is the fund isn't really there, with debts to other nations and institutions wiping a large chunk off it, and that is with all the oil effectively nationalized and owned by the government from well to pump, and they have extracted more than the UK over the years

 

Wow, the "fact", known to Norgethistle but unknown to most people, is that Norway's oil fund, worth over 850 billion dollars as of March 31st 2014, doesn't really exist!

 

Please inform the world of this, starting with that well-known Scottish Independence mouthpiece, Wikipedia!

[Norgethistle]

This dragging up of "business uncertainty" reveals another myth deceitfully peddled by unionists. Read this report last month from the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, who have nothing to do with the SNP or the YES movement, and then come back and tell be that business in Scotland is suffering because of "Salmond."

 

http://www.scottishc...ses/2014/07/778

 

Dealing with several Scottish companies they have already mentioned uncertainty regarding currency, trade and for some of them the defense work they do

[Norgethistle]

Wow, the "fact", known to Norgethistle but unknown to most people, is that Norway's oil fund, worth over 850 billion dollars as of March 31st 2014, doesn't really exist!

 

Please inform the world of this, starting with that well-known Scottish Independence mouthpiece, Wikipedia!

 

Actually the Norwegian papers, Norway owes around £90,000,000,000, its oil fund is tied up in institutes which it can't readily access and as has become clear since the new government got in alot of the investments are volatile and risky. The banks here have mentioned they are running out of money and as such are rapidly increasing charges (we already pay to have a bank card, and every time we swipe it), we have for the 1st time since i arrived in 2004 a lot of redundancies coming in with the likes of Statoil, Aibel, Slumberger, etc already laying of and transferring jobs abroad.

[Jaggernaut]

Actually the Norwegian papers, Norway owes around £90,000,000,000, its oil fund is tied up in institutes which it can't readily access and as has become clear since the new government got in alot of the investments are volatile and risky. The banks here have mentioned they are running out of money and as such are rapidly increasing charges (we already pay to have a bank card, and every time we swipe it), we have for the 1st time since i arrived in 2004 a lot of redundancies coming in with the likes of Statoil, Aibel, Slumberger, etc already laying of and transferring jobs abroad.

 

It sounds hellish over there; you might want to consider getting out quick. I bet the Norwegian people wish they had stayed under Swedish domination. Is that also reported in the Norwegian papers? Are the Norwegian papers as unbiased and objective as the ones we have here?

[Jaggernaut]

It sounds hellish over there. You might want to consider getting out quick. Do the Norwegians wish that they'd stayed under Swedish domination? Do the Norwegian newspapers report that? Are the Norwegian newspapers any more trustworthy than British ones?

 

Odd, the first several articles that come up on the web don't mention anything about Norway's fund being either mythical or inaccessible. You'd think that the media would want people to know the truth!

 

http://rt.com/news/norwegians-become-crown-millionaires-349/

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2536424/Everyone-Norway-millionaire.html

 

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/02/28/oil-fund-profits-still-spark-critics/

 

 

Sometimes I think you look upon it as your duty for the "no" campaign to try to talk down the country that you live and thrive in, in order to deflect people in Scotland from thinking that Norwegians are financially and socially better off than the majority of Scots are.

[Norgethistle]

It sounds hellish over there. You might want to consider getting out quick. Do the Norwegians wish that they'd stayed under Swedish domination? Do the Norwegian newspapers report that? Are the Norwegian newspapers any more trustworthy than British ones?

 

Odd, the first several articles that come up on the web don't mention anything about Norway's fund being either mythical or inaccessible. You'd think that the media would want people to know the truth!

 

http://rt.com/news/n...llionaires-349/

 

http://www.dailymail...illionaire.html

 

http://www.newsineng...-spark-critics/

 

 

Sometimes I think you look upon it as your duty for the "no" campaign to try to talk down the country that you live and thrive in, in order to deflect people in Scotland from thinking that Norwegians are financially and socially better off than the majority of Scots are.

 

No one said it was hellish, but not the land of milk and honey so many outside of Norway (especially it seems in Scotland) seem to think the Norwegian society is, like any other country in Europe we have social issues here, unemployment, massive personnel debt, beggers, food banks, banking problems, widening gap between rich and poor, councils running out of money 8 months into a year.

 

Financially better off is relative we may take home more (even after tax) but we pay for everything we get, health costs, VAT on food, VAT on kids clothes, highest electricity costs in Europe (And largest hydro generating in Europe), highest petrol costs in Europe, bus and rail is twice what it is in Scotland, trust me even on a nearly 6 figure annual salary in UK terms there is not much left after paying rent, school fees, food, electricity, buses, child support, doctor & dentist trips, I am fortunate I travel with work so pick all mine and my kids clothes up in the UK where it is less than half the price and even less on my daughters clothes. Norwegians have the highest level of personnel debt in the world, you are encouraged to take a credit card / loan / mortgage even with the incentive of your tax being offset against the interest on your loan, although if you do the maths you are better off not having the loan, almost all I know here are mortgaged to the hilt with 2 or 3 credit cards.

 

Culture wise, a completely different kettle of fish, next to no crime (although it is slowly rising), very calm and polite people (except when drunk), and very family orientated, but that is Stavange,r my times in Oslo were completely different and if to choose between Oslo and Maryhill I'd be in Maryhill any day, but most capital cities have that issue.

[Jaggernaut]

By coincidence, an article on "Britain's personal debt time bomb" in today's "Independent" (not a Scottish Independence supporter!):

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/money/loans-credit/1430000000000-britains-personal-debt-timebomb-8950372.html

[Norgethistle]

By coincidence, an article on "Britain's personal debt time bomb" in today's "Independent" (not a Scottish Independence supporter!):

 

http://www.independe...mb-8950372.html

 

A lot of that around 95% is mortgage (Secured loans), the value per person average is not an issue it depends on the value against their income

 

The UK has level of household debt as share of disposable income of around 150%

Norway has a level of around 200% (With only Denmarks 290%, Netherlands 250%, Iceland 230& & Irelands 210% being greater)

 

The issue of people only paying the interest on the mortgage and then not having the collateral to pay it off when it matures is an issue, but the value of the house when purchased 20 years against the current market may help alieve some of that if downsizing

[laukat]

The messiah has spoken!

 

http://www.yesscotla...rial-experience

[gee]

Yep

[jaggybunnet]

Aw here we go again, back to the "too poor" of unionists' 3-mantra dogma. How much yearly debt does the UK run? Even better, what is the UK's debt? Oh, that's right: around 1.4 TRILLION Pounds.

 

What do we "pretty much know" about currency? You mean in an independent Scotland? We will use Sterling.

 

 

 

The "EU" "tells you" that what won't work?

 

Deflection and fabrication. But then we've established that you have previous form.

 

you can call it what ever you want, we just wont have a lender of last resort and as we have no credit rating interest rate will be higher when we have to borrow money due to running at a deficit the last bit is a fact that you seem to think isnt important and has nothing to do with the "mantra which is a yes camp thing i think you will find.

 

the eu, cant believe you haven't got this yet.

 

snp want to negotiate within the eu to continue membership, in the (very) unlikely event that this worked it would be because the Scottish negotiators gave the EU what ever they asked for without any disagreement from Scotland. even then it would still have to be voted through by ALL the EU nations some who have there own agendas for not letting it happen.

 

the second option is for Scotland to rejoin, this as has been indicated COULD be fast tracked but again only if Scotland agrees to ALL the EU conditions and they all vote yes,

 

in any of these it will be the eu that decides when we would join the euro not scotland

 

 

Just to be clear no one is throwing Scotland out of the EU as by voting yes we would of our own volition be leaving it, none of the individual nations that make up the UK are in the EU as separate countries...only as part of the UK.

 

 

i will leave the "Deflection and fabrication" to you as you obviously find it easier than answering a question...are you sure you are not eck

 

 

come forward with a workable economic plan and people might be willing to vote yes.

Edited August 8, 2014 by jaggybunnet

[jaggybunnet]

For me, this is a reason to vote Yes. The fact that Darling (and I'm assuming he wasn't speaking out of turn) stated that one of the positives for Scotland staying within the UK was that it spent more than it got in and we could only do that because we were part of the UK, kind of smacked of the dodgy economics that got many countries into trouble, and is still affecting us today.

 

I don't celebrate being able to run up a debt.

 

neither do i, and am pointing it out as a fact and that no one seems to want to tell us how we will deal with it, swinny wants to stop all cuts, borrow £2 bn and possibly (haven't been able to find a link for this one) cut taxes the deficit would be higher as the oil money that is included in that is going to be used for the "oil fund", the numbers dont add up.

 

i know we are in debt now but as the UK we can deal with it better, i want to know how an independent Scotland would deal with it especially as we have a third of our work force in the public sector.

[laukat]

Jaggybunnet

 

I don't understand how you say we can deal with debt better in the UK. Surely all the evidence of UK policies have shown that debt will continue to rise. Even with the austerity cuts in place they at best are only making a fractional difference and it is very reliant on a housing bubble in London?

 

Also everyone talks about the oil running out (which it will) but only the Yes movement is offering ideas on how Scotland continues to grow its enconomy (development of green energy, diversification of ship buildiing, encouraging manufacturing, reducing emmigration etc)

 

Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone from the BT campaign explain how Scotland will remain a net contributor to the UK coffers post the oil running out? Are we seriously expecting that the UK will see us ok after the oil is gone? They think we are subsidy junkies and expect us to be grateful just now - what will they be like if this was actually true?