gianlucatoni Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 The problem here is that you're setting up a straw man. I do not deny that we are social creatures. I merely disagree as to what makes us social creatures. We are social because it satisfies the human mind. It satisfies an individual hunger for interaction. You also misrepresent transaction. It does not necessitate reciprocity: indeed transaction is merely the transfer of anything from one person to another. That could be of information, of a gesture, of property, of compassion, of anything. Transaction is the base of social interaction. Altruism necessarily grows out of a desire to help others. That's what it is. Forcibly depriving an individual of their property to use it for the benefit of another is not altruism. Indeed it is contrary to altruism. If there is any cynicism it is in the erroneous belief that such twisting of coercion and will is valid. That means you obviously don't understand what "Toryism" is. Conservatism is about preservation of power structures. Power structures are the political, the legal and the nepotist. They are the arbitrary, the coercive and the illiberal. I hold that property is not itself a power structure. Indeed it is nation states that falsely affiliate property to power, and the forge-masters of artificial notions of class. Property is not itself the means of production. Indeed it is the object and subject of production. The means is labour, and man owns his own labour completely, and grants it by license for value through express consent to those with the subjects of production to bring about an object. Again, you equate exclusively socialist outlook with social interaction. This is an incredible straw man. Society is a product of mutual, not common, interests, and the greater the mutuality, the more productive the outcome. Mutuality cannot be coerced, however, and any attempts to coerce it will be counter-productive. fk me WJ - are you actually sig-sig-00 in disguise?!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpool Jags Posted December 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 As stated earlier (in some form), suggested life priorities for youthful autarchists: =1) Swally =1) Nat King =1) Thistle 4) Merr swally 5) Merr Nat King 6) Telly fitba' ........ 1082) Delineating, to the ill-informed, the finer points of autarchism on a fitba' forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 I don't know. It's been a useful exercise in some ways. Previously I'd been a strong advocate of education, however thanks to WJ, we can all see how useless a politics degree from Glasgow University actually is. And I thought mine was a mickey mouse degree! i think it is a law degree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 I don't know. It's been a useful exercise in some ways. Previously I'd been a strong advocate of education, however thanks to WJ, we can all see how useless a politics degree from Glasgow University actually is. And I thought mine was a mickey mouse degree! what do you expect when you all come out with the dream world senario that could never work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 what do you expect when you all come out with the dream world senario that could never work. I'm just lovin' this "dream world scenario"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 I'm just lovin' this "dream world scenario"! well please show me how your "plan" works without forcing over half the nation to give up even more money that they earned. there is not the want or will for it to happen in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 well please show me how your "plan" works without forcing over half the nation to give up even more money that they earned. there is not the want or will for it to happen in this country. I haven't asked half the nation to give up anything! I've been pointing out that your "happy clappy" mob are not as clean cut as you obviously think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 I haven't asked half the nation to give up anything! I've been pointing out that your "happy clappy" mob are not as clean cut as you obviously think. so you are not part of the tax anyone on a decent wage till they squeak then??? doing a damn sight better than the last mob who got us in this mess in the first place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 I don't know. It's been a useful exercise in some ways. Previously I'd been a strong advocate of education, however thanks to WJ, we can all see how useless a politics degree from Glasgow University actually is. And I thought mine was a mickey mouse degree! Well that's full of a whole host of non sequitur and ad hominem such as it can't even begin to be digested. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck... People can argue about it all they like. The sad fact of the matter is that British politicians (of all flavours) seems to think that fighting unwinnable "wars" in the Middle East is more important than educating the people of Britain. How depressing is that? Personally I'd rather put someone through a philosophy degree than drop a "smart" bomb on some civilians in Afghanistan. Your milage may vary. I would scrap Trident and much of our military spending in a minute. It doesn't mean the general taxpayer should pay for the degrees of the children of millionaires. I know this isn't a convenient truth for left wingers, but it is actually possible to be economically right wing and not be a military-spending-obsessed, anti-gay, racist, authoritarian nutter. i think it is a law degree It is (LLB with Joint Honours in Politics all going well), but let's not have facts get in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 so you are not part of the tax anyone on a decent wage till they squeak then??? doing a damn sight better than the last mob who got us in this mess in the first place So I guess your preference is for me not paying Income Tax and National Insurance then? If it ain't then your mob ain't doing any better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 So I guess your preference is for me not paying Income Tax and National Insurance then? If it ain't then your mob ain't doing any better! I for one would abolish all taxes as soon as was practical, by a sustained and unrelenting reduction in public spending and elimination of the public debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C.G. JAG Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 well please show me how your "plan" works without forcing over half the nation to give up even more money that they earned. there is not the want or will for it to happen in this country. Maye if we clamped down on rich tax dodgers we might not need to squeeze the poor so much. There's estimates of the Treasury being deprived of over 100bn by unscrupulous tax dodgers like George Osborne. However, you've made it clear in the past that you support George in all his endeavours to line his own pockets whilst screwing the rest of us, and WJ thinks it's an individual's moral responsibility to avoid tax to the best of their ability, so I guess we won't be seeing you two on the front line. However most of us think it's only right that everyone pays their fair share - not just what they can get away with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 So I guess your preference is for me not paying Income Tax and National Insurance then? If it ain't then your mob ain't doing any better! no and i never said that, all the lefties want to tax the hell out of everyone on a decent wage when they are already on higher tax. there comes a point where they just move away and then you lose all the money anyone could do better than labour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 I for one would abolish all taxes as soon as was practical, by a sustained and unrelenting reduction in public spending and elimination of the public debt. Really? So how would Public services like the Police/Ambulance service be funded then? A quick check on your Credit Rating/Bank Account I suppose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Maye if we clamped down on rich tax dodgers we might not need to squeeze the poor so much. There's estimates of the Treasury being deprived of over 100bn by unscrupulous tax dodgers like George Osborne. However, you've made it clear in the past that you support George in all his endeavours to line his own pockets whilst screwing the rest of us, and WJ thinks it's an individual's moral responsibility to avoid tax to the best of their ability, so I guess we won't be seeing you two on the front line. However most of us think it's only right that everyone pays their fair share - not just what they can get away with. agree totaly pity the peoples party didnt do it in there 13 years in power and that chip is starting to show again with ONLY a mention of osborne and not all the lab/lib ritch list that do the same. no you dont, you want to tax anyone you perceive to be rich to ease your envey. i am all for everyone paying there way but the way you want it done they will jump ship and we get nothing, just look at the companys that went to ireland to get away from the higher corp tax and how much in tax and in jobs we lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i@n Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 ...but it is actually possible to be economically right wing and not be a military-spending-obsessed, anti-gay, racist, authoritarian nutter. No it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Really? So how would Public services like the Police/Ambulance service be funded then? A quick check on your Credit Rating/Bank Account I suppose! could try the german system for health, at least you get what you pay for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 No it's not. why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i@n Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 why? Page one of the Tory f**kwit manual states..."I promise to be a military-spending-obsessed, anti-gay, racist, authoritarian nutter" You guys should read more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Really? So how would Public services like the Police/Ambulance service be funded then? A quick check on your Credit Rating/Bank Account I suppose! Those who want to provide welfare for the needy can do so. They can set up insurance schemes (like the one in Germany, which is absolutely top notch) which provides cover for those who are out of work based on historic contributions. Believe it or not, the fact that private healthcare doesn't work in the USA (because of how it's structured) doesn't mean it can't work and doesn't work elsewhere. The sooner people realise that you can have all of these things without a state or taxation, but simply through the innate capacity in individuals to express philanthropy, the better. You wouldn't have police except where a neighbourhood desired that there should be a kind of law enforcement, which they would fund themselves. I'm astonished that you don't have enough faith in humanity to look after itself. could try the german system for health, at least you get what you pay for Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodstock Jag Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Page one of the Tory f**kwit manual states..."I promise to be a military-spending-obsessed, anti-gay, racist, authoritarian nutter" You guys should read more. Well that's exactly the point: I'm not a "Tory ****wit" Thanks for agreeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Page one of the Tory f**kwit manual states..."I promise to be a military-spending-obsessed, anti-gay, racist, authoritarian nutter" You guys should read more. damn i thought i was reading the labour one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Those who want to provide welfare for the needy can do so. They can set up insurance schemes (like the one in Germany, which is absolutely top notch) which provides cover for those who are out of work based on historic contributions. Believe it or not, the fact that private healthcare doesn't work in the USA (because of how it's structured) doesn't mean it can't work and doesn't work elsewhere. The sooner people realise that you can have all of these things without a state or taxation, but simply through the innate capacity in individuals to express philanthropy, the better. You wouldn't have police except where a neighbourhood desired that there should be a kind of law enforcement, which they would fund themselves. I'm astonished that you don't have enough faith in humanity to look after itself. Yep. humanity is selfserving, greedy and power hungry, no one read any history, it will never change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C.G. JAG Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 humanity is selfserving, greedy and power hungry, no one read any history, it will never change The romance is over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 I'm astonished that you don't have enough faith in humanity to look after itself. I spent some six months in the former Yugoslavia on a tour of duty and have seen exactly how "humanity" works so excuse me if I don't have any "faith" in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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