Mediocre Pundit Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 Excellent - now a student will be forced to pay what it actually costs to educate them, saving the taxpayer some money as long as the degree gets the student a decent job at the end of it. A sensible, market-based solution that should have been brought in years ago. And I hope it comes into Scotland too. And I say this as an ex-student who would still be paying off these fees now if they had been in place. You know what - it would be worth it. And it would be fair. As for the protesters - good to see them behaving themselves. Didn't expect much more to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 As long as the army are allowed to shoot the..... what? sorry... them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 sorry... them Who? The ConDems and their supporters. Sounds good to me!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C.G. JAG Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 I thought it was an interesting police tactic to offer up the heir to the throne as a sacrifice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honved Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Report this morning that there was a mix up in Regent Street last night. Apparently Camilla was busy kettling protestors in Parliament Square while a police horse called Rocky had a lovely evening at the theatre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Who? The ConDems and their supporters. Sounds good to me!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.C.G. JAG Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Report this morning that there was a mix up in Regent Street last night. Apparently Camilla was busy kettling protestors in Parliament Square while a police horse called Rocky had a lovely evening at the theatre. It's an easy mistake to make I suppose. You'd need dental records to tell them apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Psychosis Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) i take its not wanted cos its the tories, id bring in labours ideas and make them worse off. Labour Party policies being shit doesn't make Tory ones right. Politicians of all creeds endlessly recycle the age old argument of the old firm fan "aye, but we're not as bad as them though, are we?" when the reality is that they're all cheeks of the same arse. The thing that really f**ks me off about the whole thing is that we could easily afford to fund higher education if we just stopped fighting unwinnable "wars" in the middle east. Edited December 10, 2010 by Uncle Psychosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 I'd cut the number of university places. Too much supply for little benefit. A lot of rubbish courses, students expecting too much when they graduate with a piss poor education. Elitism in education is a good thing, not judged on finance but based on intelligence. Couldn't disagree more mate. The mark of any civilised society is how its citizens are educated. When money is flagrantly being wasted on wars etc there really is no argument. The fact is that if the country wanted to fund education - by say increasing income or corporation tax, money could be found. Education enriches the lives of individuals and society as a whole. IMO of course. Without access to further education how will the middle class be maintained? The fact is it won't. There will be fewer who make up the specialist or managerial class and the Tory dream of returning to feudalism will have been achieved. In the final analysis, the control of the means of production and wealth accumulation will remain with the few. Think of the old 7:84 statistic. So much for the classless society with opportunity for all; the introduction of fees in England is yet another example of this government using education and cost to deliver an ideological objective. And before someone picks me up on the "civilised society" statement, I do not condone the use of violence; but history has shown that very little is won without struggle. I'm also of the firm opinion that the rent-a-mob brigade would have been out in force and would have been hiding behind students. Usual cowardly tactics and any excuse to spit at or aim a kick at a cop. Shameful behaviour in any "civilised society"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Couldn't disagree more mate. The mark of any civilised society is how its citizens are educated. When money is flagrantly being wasted on wars etc there really is no argument. The fact is that if the country wanted to fund education - by say increasing income or corporation tax, money could be found. Education enriches the lives of individuals and society as a whole. IMO of course. Without access to further education how will the middle class be maintained? The fact is it won't. There will be fewer who make up the specialist or managerial class and the Tory dream of returning to feudalism will have been achieved. In the final analysis, the control of the means of production and wealth accumulation will remain with the few. Think of the old 7:84 statistic. So much for the classless society with opportunity for all; the introduction of fees in England is yet another example of this government using education and cost to deliver an ideological objective. And before someone picks me up on the "civilised society" statement, I do not condone the use of violence; but history has shown that very little is won without struggle. I'm also of the firm opinion that the rent-a-mob brigade would have been out in force and would have been hiding behind students. Usual cowardly tactics and any excuse to spit at or aim a kick at a cop. Shameful behaviour in any "civilised society"! Correct. Correct. And correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Without access to further education how will the middle class be maintained? The fact is it won't. There will be fewer who make up the specialist or managerial class and the Tory dream of returning to feudalism will have been achieved. In the final analysis, the control of the means of production and wealth accumulation will remain with the few. Think of the old 7:84 statistic. So much for the classless society with opportunity for all; the introduction of fees in England is yet another example of this government using education and cost to deliver an ideological objective. How is there no access? the problem is that the poor wee darlings just dont want to pay for it. there is no such thing as "free" further education, so maybe its about time students realised this and started to pay there way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) How is there no access? the problem is that the poor wee darlings just dont want to pay for it. there is no such thing as "free" further education, so maybe its about time students realised this and started to pay there way. Then why stop at education? Why not pay for all your medical services too? And I don't mean a token few bob here and there for prescriptions, I mean the full whack. Maybe once you've paid up front, if you survive, you can pay it back for the rest of your life..... Edited December 10, 2010 by Jaggernaut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Then why stop at education? Why not pay for all your medical services too? And I don't mean a token few bob here and there for prescriptions, I mean the full whack. Maybe once you've paid up front, if you survive, you can pay it back for the rest of your life..... eh what are you talking about??? please tell me why students shouldnt pay there way, if i do a course to improve my chances of a job i pay for it, why shouldnt they. they dont pay anything up front, they dont pay it till they are earning a decent wage and if they cant pay it off in 30 years its written off. what else do they want, ohh thats right, some other poor sod to pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggernaut Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 eh what are you talking about??? please tell me why students shouldnt pay there way, if i do a course to improve my chances of a job i pay for it, why shouldnt they. they dont pay anything up front, they dont pay it till they are earning a decent wage and if they cant pay it off in 30 years its written off. what else do they want, ohh thats right, some other poor sod to pay for it. Let's say almost 50% of people are now leaving school and going on to further education. In many cases (e.g., nursing), these days it's an obligation, not simply a whim. So, 3 years at university in order to treat bedsores and empty bedpans. Most of the people that I know who are graduates are not in especially highly paid jobs, and those who are will be paying higher taxes in any case, so they're already paying back any advantage. The whole expansion of the university sector was actually so that the government wouldn't need to pay masses of unemployed youngsters, then they went further and further to the point where people have been conned into thinking that getting tens of thousands of quid in debt before you even start out in adult life will somehow solve not only their problems but some of the government's too. The argument is exactly the same for health care. Why shouldn't we pay if we want to get or stay healthy to improve our chances of getting or staying in a job? I suspect that a lot of people look on students and higher education as a soft target, but not health care, and yet there are millions of chancers costing the NHS billions every year through malingering of one sort or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Let's say almost 50% of people are now leaving school and going on to further education. In many cases (e.g., nursing), these days it's an obligation, not simply a whim. So, 3 years at university in order to treat bedsores and empty bedpans. Most of the people that I know who are graduates are not in especially highly paid jobs, and those who are will be paying higher taxes in any case, so they're already paying back any advantage. then they wont pay it back. as they should and as people who are on high wages with NO degree do, so whats the problem. The argument is exactly the same for health care. Why shouldn't we pay if we want to get or stay healthy to improve our chances of getting or staying in a job? nothing like it I suspect that a lot of people look on students and higher education as a soft target, but not health care, and yet there are millions of chancers costing the NHS billions every year through malingering of one sort or another. agree totaly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianlucatoni Posted December 10, 2010 Report Share Posted December 10, 2010 Excellent - now a student will be forced to pay what it actually costs to educate them, saving the taxpayer some money as long as the degree gets the student a decent job at the end of it. A sensible, market-based solution that should have been brought in years ago. And I hope it comes into Scotland too. And I say this as an ex-student who would still be paying off these fees now if they had been in place. You know what - it would be worth it. And it would be fair. As for the protesters - good to see them behaving themselves. Didn't expect much more to be honest. poppycock - all the up-front money for the fees from 2012 is from the taxpayer ... and any money paid back in return (when they all miraculously find jobs paying >£21k) will allegedly go to the further education institutions ... there are too many students doing worthless crap these days with a certificate in a tube at the end of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted December 11, 2010 Report Share Posted December 11, 2010 Jaggybunnet When will you start to realise that in bourgeois society education has three principal tasks to fulfil. Firstly, it inspires the coming generation of workers with devotion and respect for the capitalist régime. Secondly, it creates from the young of the ruling classes supposedly 'cultured' controllers of the working population. Thirdly, it assists capitalist production thus increasing capitalist profits. Therefore and taking my final point on its own, surely even you can see the benefits of training and educating tomorrow's management elite. However, in actual practice and in the future if this mob get their way, higher education will become the preserve of bourgeois youth i.e. the children of parents who can buy privilege. So the emergence of anyone with ability from the ranks working class will be less possible. Society will then be controlled by a limited pool of people and this will see a return to a society that hasn't existed since the early 1900s. History has shown that when the political climate is right, insurrection and the possibility of revolution follows. Politicised students have always been ready to challenge authority; so what you're getting upset about probably isn't anything new. But fear not as in time and if there continues to be strong political opposition, the State will relent and some form of concession will be made; thus maintaining the status quo. You may call that democracy in action. I call it feeding the proles sweeteners to maintain the system. But to return to the point I'm making, this government is really just taking pre-emptive steps to ensure that their children are best placed to be trained to succeed their fathers in careers of exploitation, or to fill the official and technical posts of the capitalist State. In so doing, the Tory party with the help of their lapdog power-hungry parasite Liberal chums will have turned the clock back decades and the talents of many ordinary kids will be lost to the nation. Everything they steal back from us in the name of deficit balancing will have to be won back. All in the name of Mammon. As a society, do we really want this to happen? Karl Marx best summed it up when he said: "The education of all children, from the moment that they can get along without a mother's care, shall be in state institutions at state expense." ["The Communist Manifesto"] I look forward to that day! Feel free to have a go mate, I can spout this shi** all day MJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantB Posted December 11, 2010 Report Share Posted December 11, 2010 Jaggybunnet, do you have the cash to put your children through uni if that is what they wish to do? For millions of families on average wages, that is the dilemma that they are now facing. Thanks to the Tories and their subservient friends, many young people will now miss out on getting a decent education and getting a decent job at the end of it. Still, there will be plenty people in the future to make sure you get fries with your burger.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 11, 2010 Report Share Posted December 11, 2010 (edited) Jaggybunnet, do you have the cash to put your children through uni if that is what they wish to do? For millions of families on average wages, that is the dilemma that they are now facing. Thanks to the Tories and their subservient friends, many young people will now miss out on getting a decent education and getting a decent job at the end of it. Still, there will be plenty people in the future to make sure you get fries with your burger.... is that not the point, you dont have to pay anything up front because they pay it and you dont pay it back till you reach the 21 grand mark. Families dont pay for (unless they want to)there children to go to Uni, the goverment do in the form of a loan. there are more people now who cant go to uni because the payments are up front Edited December 11, 2010 by jaggybunnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 11, 2010 Report Share Posted December 11, 2010 Feel free to have a go mate, I can spout this shi** all day MJ Never a truer word said and i cant disagree with logic like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted December 11, 2010 Report Share Posted December 11, 2010 Never a truer word said and i cant disagree with logic like that T*ries..... give them even the slightest out to avoid the debate.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 11, 2010 Report Share Posted December 11, 2010 T*ries..... give them even the slightest out to avoid the debate.......... what debate he hasn't said anything that vaguely resembles reality, and by his own admission spouts shi** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonjag Posted December 11, 2010 Report Share Posted December 11, 2010 what debate he hasn't said anything that vaguely resembles reality, and by his own admission spouts shi** Jaggybunnet... someone has logged in as you and is hurling abuse at you. Best change your password. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggybunnet Posted December 11, 2010 Report Share Posted December 11, 2010 Jaggybunnet... someone has logged in as you and is hurling abuse at you. Best change your password. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meister Jag Posted December 12, 2010 Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 Never a truer word said and i cant disagree with logic like that Jaggybunnet Thought you'd like that... it was why I threw it in at the end; plus we all know that you're on the turn and are keen to defect to our side But just remember next time you're in the JH stand, we're all around you! Remember mate, "together we can make make the future, but it starts with leaving the past." (Bernie Winters talking to Schnorbitz the dog around 1985. Barbara Windsor once dived into the pool to save the dog at a party at Terry Scott's house. This is apparently true. Trivia to lighten up a cold Sunday.) Viva La Revolución and warmest regards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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