Religion

[Blackpool Jags]

"At least six people have died in Britain after being told that they had been healed of HIV, and could stop taking their medication.

 

There is evidence that evangelical churches in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow are claiming to cure HIV through God."

 

Full story: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/churches-told-dying-patients-were-cured-034935993.html

 

Serious question: can we not clamp down on these killers? Nutjobs who go around claiming that 'God' is some kind of universal panacea for, well just about everything and anything, are surely every bit as bad as cold-blooded murderers.

 

We live in the 21st century and have, over the past 3 or 4 centuries, managed to debunk most of the superstition that gave rise to belief in the supernatural as both a cause and a cure for every sort of pathology, by way of evidence-based rationale.

 

These quasi-criminal organisations need to be strictly licenced and closed down when gross breaches of practice occur, such as the case in question here.

[Norman]

Too right!

 

While we're at it, can we also clamp down on the "nut-jobs" who insisted that Thalidomide was a good cure for morning sickness or that the MMR vaccine was responsible for autism?

 

This group of "cookies" are now running around in a blind panic because one of their key tenets, a universal speed limit, has been repeatedly disproved. Naturally, rather than jusst accept the fact that they were wrong, they've started in-fighting with accusations of improper practices or fanciful suggestions of extra invisible dimensions and parallel universes.

 

Let's be honest BJ, there are as many people who put blind faith in science and suffer as a result as well.

[crazy davie]

They need to be closed down fullstop. Churches, chapels, synagogues, mosques, whatever - all they do is perpetuate and encourage stone-age superstitions.

[Jaggernaut]

They need to be closed down fullstop. Churches, chapels, synagogues, mosques, whatever - all they do is perpetuate and encourage stone-age superstitions.

Does your boy's BB company go to church, or has that stopped since my own (distant) BB days?

[Blackpool Jags]

Too right!

 

While we're at it, can we also clamp down on the "nut-jobs" who insisted that Thalidomide was a good cure for morning sickness or that the MMR vaccine was responsible for autism?

 

This group of "cookies" are now running around in a blind panic because one of their key tenets, a universal speed limit, has been repeatedly disproved. Naturally, rather than jusst accept the fact that they were wrong, they've started in-fighting with accusations of improper practices or fanciful suggestions of extra invisible dimensions and parallel universes.

 

Let's be honest BJ, there are as many people who put blind faith in science and suffer as a result as well.

 

Blind faith, in whatever shape or form it takes, is potentially disastrous. Bad science is of course dangerous, as you rightly point out. Where I might differ slightly with you is that science, generally speaking, follows a trajectory of progression; evidence-based science, by definition, will gradually eliminate those products and practices which are proven to be unhelpful/dangerous. Therefore, the only way for progression in terms of universal benefit, is literally trial and error. The production of drugs or practices which are known, or at least suspected, by the originator to be unsafe is another - arguably criminal - matter.

 

God-ism or religion/faith is a time-tested beast of destruction: these criminals have not a jot of evidence to suggest their methodology has one ounce of measurably progressive benefit, yet after thousands of years, they expose individuals to the dangers of their methods with impunity. The great paragon of religious healing, Lourdes, is yet - to the best of my knowledge - to give us an example of an amputee who has grown a new limb.

[Norman]

There are plenty of examples where religious faith has benefitted the healing process or has offered those in anguish some form of consolation.

 

Bad religion and bad science are equally dangerous.

 

My observations over the years are that scientists are just as zealous about their beliefs as any religious fanatic. They are also as willing to attack denouncers by claiming that they do not fully understand the issue or are not in possession of the "required wisdom".

 

It's entirely possible that many religious beliefs are based on the scientific understanding of the time. If you were not aware of plate tectonics and spotted the fossil of a sea creature half-way up a mountain, it would be natural to deduce that there must have been some kind of global flood in the past.

 

It's always worth noting that the chronological sequence of the creation within Genesis closely matches that currently understood by modern science. Admittedly, the time-scales involved are different.

 

Perhaps religion was the science of its day? We have to be careful that science does not become the religion of our day.

[Jaggernaut]

There are plenty of examples where religious faith has benefitted the healing process or has offered those in anguish some form of consolation.

 

Bad religion and bad science are equally dangerous.

 

My observations over the years are that scientists are just as zealous about their beliefs as any religious fanatic. They are also as willing to attack denouncers by claiming that they do not fully understand the issue or are not in possession of the "required wisdom".

 

It's entirely possible that many religious beliefs are based on the scientific understanding of the time. If you were not aware of plate tectonics and spotted the fossil of a sea creature half-way up a mountain, it would be natural to deduce that there must have been some kind of global flood in the past.

 

It's always worth noting that the chronological sequence of the creation within Genesis closely matches that currently understood by modern science. Admittedly, the time-scales involved are different.

 

Perhaps religion was the science of its day? We have to be careful that science does not become the religion of our day.

That's fair enough, but if you had to jump off a cliff with either a scientifically designed parachute, or nothing but the word of a "religious" person to go ahead because God would save you, which option would you take?

[Norman]

I'm not daft, I'd choose the parachute. I'm not saying that religion is always good or science is always bad.

 

I guess my point is that for every example of bad religion, such as the one identified in the OP, there are just as many examples of bad science.

 

If anyone insists that you must only believe what science says and if you believe anything else then you're wrong, then where's the difference between science and religious fundamentalism?

[alx]

I'm not daft, I'd choose the parachute. I'm not saying that religion is always good or science is always bad.

 

I guess my point is that for every example of bad religion, such as the one identified in the OP, there are just as many examples of bad science.

 

If anyone insists that you must only believe what science says and if you believe anything else then you're wrong, then where's the difference between science and religious fundamentalism?

 

Proper science can be tested by experiments. If the experiment fails then a scientist changes their opinion accordingly. Homeopathic medicine for example is for nutjobs, and should be banned from the NHS. Also beware of so called data modelling 'science', that's not an experiment. Unfortunately climate change models fall into this category.

[Norman]

Proper science can be tested by experiments. If the experiment fails then a scientist should change their opinion accordingly. Homeopathic medicine for example is for nutjobs, and should be banned from the NHS. Also beware of so called data modelling 'science', that's not an experiment. Unfortunately climate change models fall into this category.

Fixed that for you.

[Jaggernaut]

I'm not daft, I'd choose the parachute. I'm not saying that religion is always good or science is always bad.

 

I guess my point is that for every example of bad religion, such as the one identified in the OP, there are just as many examples of bad science.

 

If anyone insists that you must only believe what science says and if you believe anything else then you're wrong, then where's the difference between science and religious fundamentalism?

Unfortunately, there is often a lot of money at stake in both. And that's often where things can go very wrong.

[Norman]

Unfortunately, there is often a lot of money at stake in both. And that's often where things can go very wrong.

Agreed.

 

I can thoroughly recommend Ben Goldacre's excellent "Bad Science" website and book to anyone who jumps at every scientific report reported in the media.

 

Likewise, there are plenty of enlightened religious prophets out there who are only too willing to relieve the desperate of their life-savings.

 

Edit to add:

In keeping with the subject of the OP, here is the story of how Matthias Rath, a qualified doctor and, coincidentally, owner of a vitamin pill company, convinced South African HIV patients and members of government that vitamin pills were a miracle cure for AIDS. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/sep/12/matthias.rath.aids.south.africa?intcmp=239

He is now banned from South Africa having been totally discredited, but is reported to have "set up shop" in Russia instead.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Norman

[crazy davie]

Does your boy's BB company go to church, or has that stopped since my own (distant) BB days?

Yes, of course we go to Church. That aspect of the BB has not changed in the slightest in my Company.

 

I go to Church parade, I join in the prayers at the start and end of the BB night, and I talk to the boys about Bible stuff - just the same as any other BB officer.

 

It might be hypocritcal, I don't know, but while I'm at BB, I keep my religious views to myself and do the required BB thing. I do this because I love the kids, not the God.

[Jaggernaut]

Yes, of course we go to Church. That aspect of the BB has not changed in the slightest in my Company.

 

I go to Church parade, I join in the prayers at the start and end of the BB night, and I talk to the boys about Bible stuff - just the same as any other BB officer.

 

It might be hypocritcal, I don't know, but while I'm at BB, I keep my religious views to myself and do the required BB thing. I do this because I love the kids, not the God.

Nah, doing the minimum in this case is perfectly acceptable. Having been in the BB for years as a youngster, I reckon the limited exposure to the whole church parades and services thing is actually beneficial! I personally believe that Christianity and the religious rituals are pure nonsense (and potentially dangerous), but getting limited exposure to it as a youngster and the discipline that accompanies all of the parades etc can actually have an immunizing function, while fostering some kind of sense of respect.

[sigesige00]

I heard that Scottish Protestant churches have a strong fundamentalist tendency. Is that true?

In my opinion, Christians are idiots. The Bible is self-contradictory, and how can one understand the "Holy Trinity"? Judaism and Islam are no better. Their teachings are also self-contradictory, and they need prophets. If there were a God Almighty, what on earth does He need prophets?

Every Christian must read the Old Testaments. In the Old Testaments, God (YHWH) orders genocide frequently. God ordered that "kill all boys, and non-virgin girls". How can one believe in such a religion?

[Norman]

I heard that Scottish Protestant churches have a strong fundamentalist tendency. Is that true?

In my opinion, Christians are idiots. The Bible is self-contradictory, and how can one understand the "Holy Trinity"? Judaism and Islam are no better. Their teachings are also self-contradictory, and they need prophets. If there were a God Almighty, what on earth does He need prophets?

Every Christian must read the Old Testaments. In the Old Testaments, God (YHWH) orders genocide frequently. God ordered that "kill all boys, and non-virgin girls". How can one believe in such a religion?

It is entirely true and was a contributory factor in Blackpool Jags leaving the country to avoid persecution as a heretic.

[crazy davie]

Nah, doing the minimum in this case is perfectly acceptable. Having been in the BB for years as a youngster, I reckon the limited exposure to the whole church parades and services thing is actually beneficial! I personally believe that Christianity and the religious rituals are pure nonsense (and potentially dangerous), but getting limited exposure to it as a youngster and the discipline that accompanies all of the parades etc can actually have an immunizing function, while fostering some kind of sense of respect.

My sentiments exactly - and expressed much better than I managed.

[Jaggernaut]

I heard that Scottish Protestant churches have a strong fundamentalist tendency. Is that true?

In my opinion, Christians are idiots. The Bible is self-contradictory, and how can one understand the "Holy Trinity"? Judaism and Islam are no better. Their teachings are also self-contradictory, and they need prophets. If there were a God Almighty, what on earth does He need prophets?

Every Christian must read the Old Testaments. In the Old Testaments, God (YHWH) orders genocide frequently. God ordered that "kill all boys, and non-virgin girls". How can one believe in such a religion?

Great post.

[Blackpool Jags]

It is entirely true and was a contributory factor in Blackpool Jags leaving the country to avoid persecution as a heretic.

 

You know me too well. Actually, I was regarded as a heretic at school for being a Jag and not a cream bun. The blue trogs seemed to have more respect for green trogs than us.

 

Back on topic: I believe in the right of individuals to practise religion in private, but only from the age of around 16, when they can reasonably be deemed to be thinking for themselves. It's also only fair that religions or sects have proper accreditation renewable, say, annually, and valid insurance to protect their victims eg the orphans that were raped and tortured by priests and nuns not so long ago.

 

In any other walk of life, organisations and individuals who commit atrocities on helpless victims would incur the full wrath of the law, but religions seem largely untouchable. In the Philippines, for example, the masses continue to have totally unsustainable numbers of children, purely because the clergy warn them of hellfire should they use contraception; this is monstrous and causes malnutrition, destitution and other horrors for literally millions of citizens there trapped in the belief/dogma machinery of the hegemonous church. Likewise, the quasi-criminal teachings in Africa which asserts that condoms do not prevent HIV/Aids and offend God, who will exact his rertibution against sinners in the afterlife.

 

... and so on and so forth. It's time, in my view, that religions were treated no differently from anybody or anything else in the eyes of the law. A few large scale enforced closures might start to put the brakes on some of the tyranny that is carried out by zealots of superstition globally. I suspect, though, that it's likely to be long after I've pegged out before we see this sort of action against these types.

[Dunfermline Jag]

Yes, of course we go to Church. That aspect of the BB has not changed in the slightest in my Company.

 

I go to Church parade, I join in the prayers at the start and end of the BB night, and I talk to the boys about Bible stuff - just the same as any other BB officer.

 

It might be hypocritcal, I don't know, but while I'm at BB, I keep my religious views to myself and do the required BB thing. I do this because I love the kids, not the God.

 

By loving the kids - in an entirely non Catholic priest type way, of course, you ARE loving the God!

 

Seriously, though, as Norman said ALL religion is not bad and ALL science is not good, but just by reading this thread I can tell that the most bigoted and closed minded indivisuals are those attacking religion and not supporting it.

 

Incidentally, Hitler, Stalin and Kim Jung Il (or any other member of the North Korean Kim family) are and were some of the most odious and dangerous men the modern world has known. All, AFAIK, were athiests - do we get to ban them too?

[Blackpool Jags]

By loving the kids - in an entirely non Catholic priest type way, of course, you ARE loving the God!

 

Seriously, though, as Norman said ALL religion is not bad and ALL science is not good, but just by reading this thread I can tell that the most bigoted and closed minded indivisuals are those attacking religion and not supporting it.Incidentally, Hitler, Stalin and Kim Jung Il (or any other member of the North Korean Kim family) are and were some of the most odious and dangerous men the modern world has known. All, AFAIK, were athiests - do we get to ban them too?

 

With genuine respect, DJ, what do you find bigoted and closed-mind about attacking religion, and especially about not supporting it?

[Jaggernaut]

By loving the kids - in an entirely non Catholic priest type way, of course, you ARE loving the God!

 

Seriously, though, as Norman said ALL religion is not bad and ALL science is not good, but just by reading this thread I can tell that the most bigoted and closed minded indivisuals are those attacking religion and not supporting it.

 

Incidentally, Hitler, Stalin and Kim Jung Il (or any other member of the North Korean Kim family) are and were some of the most odious and dangerous men the modern world has known. All, AFAIK, were athiests - do we get to ban them too?

Wow! How can you do that?

[GrantB]

Religion is dangerous, causes division in people where there wouldn't otherwise be division and invokes the kind of logic that should have been left behind in a primary school playground (my god's better than your god etc)

 

It has as much relevance in the 21st century as the flat earth society.

[Norman]

Religion is dangerous, causes division in people where there wouldn't otherwise be division and invokes the kind of logic that should have been left behind in a primary school playground (my god's better than your god etc)

 

It has as much relevance in the 21st century as the flat earth society.

 

Yes, because we're all quite amicable and tolerant when it comes to land, race, politics, etc.

 

It's just another option to distinguish between ourselves and anyone that might be a wee bit different to us.

 

If someone just happens to share your country of birth, ethnicity and politcal standpoint, then it's useful to have their belief system as another opportunity to disagree with them.

 

I don't believe that some all-powerful being created the universe, but I find it just as easy to accept that some people will choose to believe that as to accept that other people will choose to believe it was created 14.5 billion years ago from a single point of matter in a "big bang". No-one was around at the time, but the latter "fits" with our current understanding of the universe and the rules that we currently believe govern it.

 

Believe what you want to believe and, if you can, extend that courtesy to others.

[GrantB]

Yes, because we're all quite amicable and tolerant when it comes to land, race, politics, etc.

 

It's just another option to distinguish between ourselves and anyone that might be a wee bit different to us.

 

If someone just happens to share your country of birth, ethnicity and politcal standpoint, then it's useful to have their belief system as another opportunity to disagree with them.

 

I don't believe that some all-powerful being created the universe, but I find it just as easy to accept that some people will choose to believe that as to accept that other people will choose to believe it was created 14.5 billion years ago from a single point of matter in a "big bang". No-one was around at the time, but the latter "fits" with our current understanding of the universe and the rules that we currently believe govern it.

 

Believe what you want to believe and, if you can, extend that courtesy to others.

 

I'll try and answer this as respectfully as possible...

 

I really struggle to extend the same courtesy as I was brought up within christianity and only through living life outwith the boundaries of religion, found out what a fraud I had been fed virtually from birth. I remember well being told (NOT by my family but by my peers) that we had to fight with the pupils of the local Catholic school. Now since my next door neighbour (and best pal) went to Catholic school, I got a little confused. You can tell the same story all through the world all over the world whether it be Sunni and Shia Muslims in various Arab states, Tamil Hindu's v Sinhali Buddists in Sri Lanka, Protestants (spit) v Catholics in Glasgow or Belfast or Jews v Muslims in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

 

Religon tries to control people based on frankly ridiculous beleif. The 'protest' against gay marriage outside Holyrood is a classic example of the bigotry that they perpetuate. Quite frankly, bigots like this make me sick.