If You Were Undecided About Scotland, Has Cameron Tipped It For You?

[Jaggernaut]

I'd like things to be a lot clearer in terms of both positive and negative predictions of fiscal stability (or at least be presented with figures from a source with no vested interest in the outcome of the referendum so I as a voter can make a more informed decision). So far it doesn't look like this is going to happen.

 

As folk have rightly pointed out, this is not about party politics. It's about the future of the country I live in. So it's safe to say that I care deeply about this referendum and have grave concerns about the future impact on my country post-referendum. To date all I've heard is rhetoric from both nationalists and unionists with the romanticised "think with your heart and be proud of your nation" stuff from the Nats counterbalanced by horror stories from the rest. It's utterly naive to think "the truth lies somewhere in the middle" because in reality the truth could exist anywhere across the spectrum. Unless the politicians get their collective @rses in gear and start coming up with something concrete in this debate the result may just be a knee-jerk reaction from voters on how anti-t*ry (and, by association, anti UK) they feel that day. This of course would suit the Nationalists, which could also possible spell economic and social disaster for this country.

 

Let's get some figures out and let's start talking reality! And that sentiment is aimed at both sides of the debate.

 

It could also spell a fairer, more prosperous, and peaceful future for this country,

 

 

 

but you don't seem to want to accept that possibility.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Jaggernaut

[hamiltonjag]

It could also spell a fairer, more prosperous, and peaceful future for this country,

 

 

 

but you don't seem to want to accept that possibility.

I do want to accept that possibility. Can anyone convince me either way? The point I'm making (or trying ham-fistedly to make) is - we're getting an opportunity to vote in an historic referendum but all we're hearing is romanticised fairy-tales with no substance and nothing tangible to back it up from the Nats, and horror stories with no substance and nothing tangible to back it up from the unionists. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this approach from both sides of the debate who, imvho, are treating the Scottish people like imbeciles expecting us to vote on how our hearts lead us rather than furnishing us with some tangible pros and cons so we can make a logical and thought-out decision either way.

I am not pro or anti independence. I am not pro or anti the status quo. Apologies if I come across as something else. What I am willing to admit is, on balance, and given the current economic global nightmare, I find myself coming more to the conclusion of preferring the status quo. I want answers that none of the politicians are giving. While I'm sure your own comment wasn't intended as a snipe it only serves to perpetuate the aforementioned romanticised view of how things could turn out well. Equally a pro-union Jag could jump in and tell me off for being too pro-independence.

 

I remain open to being convinced either way and await that opportunity with bated breath.

[Jaggernaut]

I do want to accept that possibility. Can anyone convince me either way? The point I'm making (or trying ham-fistedly to make) is - we're getting an opportunity to vote in an historic referendum but all we're hearing is romanticised fairy-tales with no substance and nothing tangible to back it up from the Nats, and horror stories with no substance and nothing tangible to back it up from the unionists. I'm getting pretty frustrated with this approach from both sides of the debate who, imvho, are treating the Scottish people like imbeciles expecting us to vote on how our hearts lead us rather than furnishing us with some tangible pros and cons so we can make a logical and thought-out decision either way.

I am not pro or anti independence. I am not pro or anti the status quo. Apologies if I come across as something else. What I am willing to admit is, on balance, and given the current economic global nightmare, I find myself coming more to the conclusion of preferring the status quo. I want answers that none of the politicians are giving. While I'm sure your own comment wasn't intended as a snipe it only serves to perpetuate the aforementioned romanticised view of how things could turn out well. Equally a pro-union Jag could jump in and tell me off for being too pro-independence.

 

I remain open to being convinced either way and await that opportunity with bated breath.

 

I know what you mean about the arguments, but I'm afraid that's politicians for you. Is it really any different in the run up to an election? Vague statements, howls of derision and saying how it will spell disaster if the other camp wins, with almost never anything really tangible (manifestos don't count, as they are usually ignored once the winners are in power). For me in the end it usually comes down to a gut feeling about who I trust. And here I think we'll differ, but I would never, ever trust a Westminster, unionist politician when the subject is Scotland. Too many lies for far too long.

[hamiltonjag]

I know what you mean about the arguments, but I'm afraid that's politicians for you. Is it really any different in the run up to an election? Vague statements, howls of derision and saying how it will spell disaster if the other camp wins, with almost never anything really tangible (manifestos don't count, as they are usually ignored once the winners are in power). For me in the end it usually comes down to a gut feeling about who I trust. And here I think we'll differ, but I would never, ever trust a Westminster, unionist politician when the subject is Scotland. Too many lies for far too long.

I accept your point of view, but what stops me sharing it at the moment is the realisation that the outcome of this referendum is for my lifetime and my children's children's children's lifetimes... not just for a 4-5 year period of office. For me it's THAT stark. We are being handed a massive responsibility. In any given 4 - 5 year period we can vote out current Holyrood/Westminster Governments, local councils, MEPs etc if/when they get found out to be the liars the collectively may be, or keep them if/when they have done a good job. If we vote for independence it's forever probably. So while I take on board what you're saying I think we all have to realise the enormity of what's ahead of us with this referendum and that makes a world of difference from the fixable mistake of voting-in the wrong colour of rosette. Believe me I am not saying this from the point-of-view of peddling a horror story. I want information on which to base an informed decision.

[Jaggernaut]

I accept your point of view, but what stops me sharing it at the moment is the realisation that the outcome of this referendum is for my lifetime and my children's children's children's lifetimes... not just for a 4-5 year period of office. For me it's THAT stark. We are being handed a massive responsibility. In any given 4 - 5 year period we can vote out current Holyrood/Westminster Governments, local councils, MEPs etc if/when they get found out to be the liars the collectively may be, or keep them if/when they have done a good job. If we vote for independence it's forever probably. So while I take on board what you're saying I think we all have to realise the enormity of what's ahead of us with this referendum and that makes a world of difference from the fixable mistake of voting-in the wrong colour of rosette. Believe me I am not saying this from the point-of-view of peddling a horror story. I want information on which to base an informed decision.

 

Yep, point taken. But in an independent Scotland everybody will still be able to vote for their particular brand of politics, whether it be leftist, rightist, centrist, or non-existent (i.e. Lib-dem). And there might in fact even be the possibility of voting for a party whose main goal would be to return to being dominated by Westminster! But of course no country that has ever regained independence has voted to go back to being ruled by its former master.

 

It is indeed an enormous responsibility that lies ahead. Our ancestors were not allowed to vote on whether they wanted to be coerced into the Union; that will forever be a stain on Scotland. Frankly, the status quo is nothing to be especially proud of, in my view. I want to see massive change for the benefit of Scotland in the years ahead, and I believe that the best way to do that is not to have more of the same, but to make our own decisions about the society we want and our role in the world. It cannot be denied that we cannot do these as long as we are ruled from Westminster.

[GrantB]

I accept your point of view, but what stops me sharing it at the moment is the realisation that the outcome of this referendum is for my lifetime and my children's children's children's lifetimes... not just for a 4-5 year period of office. For me it's THAT stark. We are being handed a massive responsibility. In any given 4 - 5 year period we can vote out current Holyrood/Westminster Governments, local councils, MEPs etc if/when they get found out to be the liars the collectively may be, or keep them if/when they have done a good job. If we vote for independence it's forever probably. So while I take on board what you're saying I think we all have to realise the enormity of what's ahead of us with this referendum and that makes a world of difference from the fixable mistake of voting-in the wrong colour of rosette. Believe me I am not saying this from the point-of-view of peddling a horror story. I want information on which to base an informed decision.

 

Personally, in the future, I don't think I'd be able to look my children in the eye and be able to tell them that I voted no. Of course independence is a risk but IMO it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to really shape the country we live in for the better and stand and fall on our own decisions rather than take the lottery every 5 years and end up with the hell of Conservative rule when middle England has enough of Labour.

[hamiltonjag]

Personally, in the future, I don't think I'd be able to look my children in the eye and be able to tell them that I voted no. Of course independence is a risk but IMO it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to really shape the country we live in for the better and stand and fall on our own decisions rather than take the lottery every 5 years and end up with the hell of Conservative rule when middle England has enough of Labour.

I know what you're saying and to an extent I can agree with you and Jaggernaut. Got this bugging, nagging voice still in my head warning me that it's folly to simply follow my patriotism that way. It's a bit like a game of poker.... going all-in with a pair of aces and ending up getting shafted by trip deuces. An acceptable risk-gamble in a game but really is it worth it gambling the future of this country, and my kids future on such a risk? I'm not convinced. That's why I keep banging on about needing facts and figures. I want to see my opponent's hand I suppose (carrying on the poker analogy). Maybe I'm thinking I'd rather not be at the table at all (ie I deep down wish this referendum wasn't happening at all.) I want to wimp out? Maybe. Cynical about the SNP? Probably. Disillusioned with Labour? Definitely. Despise the t*ries? 100%. Dammit! I think I'd rather be Greek right now!

Edited February 24, 2012 by hamiltonjag

[Jaggernaut]

I know what you're saying and to an extent I can agree with you and Jaggernaut. Got this bugging, nagging voice still in my head warning me that it's folly to simply follow my patriotism that way. It's a bit like a game of poker.... going all-in with a pair of aces and ending up getting shafted by trip deuces. An acceptable risk-gamble in a game but really is it worth it gambling the future of this country, and my kids future on such a risk? I'm not convinced. That's why I keep banging on about needing facts and figures. I want to see my opponent's hand I suppose (carrying on the poker analogy). Maybe I'm thinking I'd rather not be at the table at all (ie I deep down wish this referendum wasn't happening at all.) I want to wimp out? Maybe. Cynical about the SNP? Probably. Disillusioned with Labour? Definitely. Despise the t*ries? 100%. Dammit! I think I'd rather be Greek right now!

 

Grant B's point hit it home to me. Is it fair on your children and your grandchildren to deny them the basic right to grow up in an independent Scotland? More and more people seem to be aware that the union is not particularly advantageous for this country, and whether it's something as "trivial" as the Queen being called QEII (totally inappropriate) because that's what she is for England, the Bank of England failing to change its name to reflect the UK, The GB Olympic Committee blatantly lying to the world by saying that a "historic agreement" had been reached with the SFA to open the way for team GB, lies about the importance and durability of oil resources, creaming money off Scotland for the Millenium Dome and the London Olympics......, using Scotland as a convenient nuclear target, Scotland's fishing industry being permanently damaged as a result of the UK's position in Europe, it just goes on and on.

 

In years from now, when the weans are older and they ask "Why did you vote for Scotland to continue to be ruled from London?" I for one would feel ashamed.

[GrantB]

In years from now, when the weans are older and they ask "Why did you vote for Scotland to continue to be ruled from London?" I for one would feel ashamed.

 

Nail hit firmly on head.

 

To all who oppose the evil that is the Conservative and Unionist Party, I make this plea...

 

Dont vote no because you dislike the SNP or because you dislike Alex Salmond. This is much much bigger than party politics. The SNP can be voted out just like any other party in a democracy. However, given that it is pretty much guaranteed that Scotland will never return a Conservative government, if you really dislike the Tories, there is only one option that will kill them off and turn them into a party with as much relevance in a modern Scotland as the Monster Raving Loony Party (but with slighty less credibility).

 

It's not even about patriotism. Scotland is a left leaning country (whether you like it or not JB). If you really dont want a right wing government destroying peoples lives and jobs. for feck sake vote yes. It may be the one and only chance you get in your lifetime to really make a difference. Dont waste it!

[jaggybunnet]

Nail hit firmly on head.

 

To all who oppose the evil that is the Conservative and Unionist Party, I make this plea...

 

Dont vote no because you dislike the SNP or because you dislike Alex Salmond. This is much much bigger than party politics. The SNP can be voted out just like any other party in a democracy. However, given that it is pretty much guaranteed that Scotland will never return a Conservative government, if you really dislike the Tories, there is only one option that will kill them off and turn them into a party with as much relevance in a modern Scotland as the Monster Raving Loony Party (but with slighty less credibility).

 

It's not even about patriotism. Scotland is a left leaning country (whether you like it or not JB). If you really dont want a right wing government destroying peoples lives and jobs. for feck sake vote yes. It may be the one and only chance you get in your lifetime to really make a difference. Dont waste it!

 

as much as i dont like the snp or eck that is not the reason i would vote no, thats because they have not proved that we would be better off or worse off, untill they do why would i vote for it.

 

becuse i am scottish is a ridiculas reason to do it the rest is just the we are poor scots chip on the shoulder bit which i find very sad

[Jaggernaut]

as much as i dont like the snp or eck that is not the reason i would vote no, thats because they have not proved that we would be better off or worse off, untill they do why would i vote for it.

 

becuse i am scottish is a ridiculas reason to do it the rest is just the we are poor scots chip on the shoulder bit which i find very sad

 

JB: All the countries that have gained independence from the British, French, Russian, Yugoslav empires or whatever over the past years and decades. Did they all suffer from this "chip on the shoulder" syndrome that you accuse those who desire to see Scottish independence (instead of dependence) as having? Or do you only reserve that insult for fellow Scots that don't share your wish that we continue to be ruled from London?

[jaggybunnet]

JB: All the countries that have gained independence from the British, French, Russian, Yugoslav empires or whatever over the past years and decades. Did they all suffer from this "chip on the shoulder" syndrome that you accuse those who desire to see Scottish independence (instead of dependence) as having? Or do you only reserve that insult for fellow Scots that don't share your wish that we continue to be ruled from London?

 

no i am sure many do suffer not just the scottish, i just get a bit fed up listing to how baddly they have been treated when to be honest we all have by all political partys.

 

you get wee eck and his gang to prove it would work and i might just think about it, at the moment that isnt happing, all he does is come out with numbers and aledged plans with no substance and try to get people to vote with there heart. i am sure that will make people feel a lott better if it crashes down about us and we end up like greece.

 

but dont worry we will have voted with our heart

[Jaggernaut]

no i am sure many do suffer not just the scottish, i just get a bit fed up listing to how baddly they have been treated when to be honest we all have by all political partys.

 

you get wee eck and his gang to prove it would work and i might just think about it, at the moment that isnt happing, all he does is come out with numbers and aledged plans with no substance and try to get people to vote with there heart. i am sure that will make people feel a lott better if it crashes down about us and we end up like greece.

 

but dont worry we will have voted with our heart

 

But it's the same old story; british unionists throw around numbers and warn everybody of dire outcomes of Scottish independence, throw in unsubstantiated claims about us being better off and fairer under Westminster rule, and they appeal to vague emotional arguments about Britannia and the like. Your own side is certainly no better when it comes to posturing and heartstring-pulling.

[jaggybunnet]

But it's the same old story; british unionists throw around numbers and warn everybody of dire outcomes of Scottish independence, throw in unsubstantiated claims about us being better off and fairer under Westminster rule, and they appeal to vague emotional arguments about Britannia and the like. Your own side is certainly no better when it comes to posturing and heartstring-pulling.

 

 

i dont realy care if its westminster or holyrood , they are ALL the same and even if they dont start that way they all eventualy get taken over by the cash and power, greed basicaly.

 

i just want to be able to have a job and my life, i have that at the moment, snp on the other hand are promicing the world and above but very little of what they say adds up or would make my life any better. you complain about westminster but are happy for wee eck to try and join the eu which would be in control of us and they make westminster look like a bunch playscool kids when it comes to corruption and wasting money.

 

you beleive what eck says, i have yet to see much that would make me change my mind, its up to eck to change that.

[GrantB]

as much as i dont like the snp or eck that is not the reason i would vote no, thats because they have not proved that we would be better off or worse off, untill they do why would i vote for it.

 

becuse i am scottish is a ridiculas reason to do it the rest is just the we are poor scots chip on the shoulder bit which i find very sad

 

JB it seems that the only one here with a chip on their shoulder is you!

 

I'd vote yes even if it would make me worse off because I believe it is the right thing to do for not just the present but for our future generations.

[Guy Incognito]

Aye ok, very good. But before committing to an independent Scotland (with or without the smug lardarse Salmond or his wee herry sidekick at the helm) I'd want to know whether I was voting for Scotland to become the strong, independent land with the bright future that the nats want to portray...... or a fecked-up wasteland.

 

I'm not an economist, just a voter looking for a clear picture of reality rather than the fantasy/horror spun by nationalists and unionists. Taking a wee squizz at the figures in terms of North Sea oil revenue (the former porn of the SNP enthusiast) things aren't looking too clever. Despite the rising price of oil per barrel, revenue is in freefall. Perhaps this is why we don't hear much "its wur oil" any more. Whisky? Perhaps in terms of excise duty, but for anything else its best to remember that most of the big brand names are owned by overseas companies.

 

Like I say I'm no economist but show me the sums and I'll probably get it. What scares the crap out of me is the predictions from most economists who basically think we'd be mental to vote for independence. For example:

 

Wooft! Deeper public spending cuts than even the t*ries are making?! Would I want to vote for that? I don't think so! The poor and most vulnerable have taken quite enough of a kicking already imvho. So much for lardy's "arc of prosperity".... or is it? Not so long ago he was pointing across the Irish Sea and going "look at how well Ireland's doing!!" Ummm..... right ye are Eck. Now he's pointing at Scandinavian countries. I'm no economist, but I can point to the same countries and say "7 quid a pint?!?!"

 

I'm falling on the side of maintaining the status quo, despite the fact we've got a c**t in 10 Downing Street.

 

There are umpteen economic predictions doing the rounds at present. If you do a bit of searching then I am sure you can find some that fully support the concept of Scottish independence. If it all hangs on ecnonmic reasons for you, HJ, then ask yourself this: why has no unionist politician come forward with solid economic arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK, when then architect of the unionist movement - George Osbourne - is the chancellor of the UK and as such, we should assume, is party to the actual bona fide facts and figures (rather than assupmtions). Instead, all we get are bizzare rants comparing us to Bosnia and how we will have to have to have border controls at Carlisle and other 'throw enough shite and see if any of it sticks' rhetoric.

 

Ireland is, and was, a poor comparison. We share many similarilties with Ireland but economically we are - or have the potential to be anyway - quite different. The Irish economic boom of the '00s was built almost entirely on the back of the banking sector and the housing 'boom'. In previous decades Ireland's economy had been mainly tertiary sector based, so the arrival of a completely different type of industry gave it a shot in the arm. This is unlikely to be the case in Scotland, because if you look at the recent past then our economy has been far more diverse and could well be so again.

 

In any case, take a walk around rhe centre of Dublin, even a post-credit crunch Dublin, and then take a walk around Glasgow and tell me which appears to be the happier, healthier, more prosperous city. Like yourself, I am no economist. I mainly go by what I see and what I feel in my heart; and for me, the former city, at the moment, triumphs over the latter comfortably. Despite the offensive stereotype the Irish are not stupid people. They will get themselves back on their feet eventually; but will we?

Edited February 25, 2012 by Guy Incognito

[jaggybunnet]

JB it seems that the only one here with a chip on their shoulder is you!

 

I'd vote yes even if it would make me worse off because I believe it is the right thing to do for not just the present but for our future generations.

 

 

that just dosnt make sence Grant and highlights what i have said before

[GrantB]

that just dosnt make sence Grant and highlights what i have said before

 

Makes perfect sense to me. For your benefit, I am talking about if (and it's a big if) it cost me money in the short term in order for future generations to see the benefits that I am utterly convinced will come in the longer term.

[hamiltonjag]

Makes perfect sense to me. For your benefit, I am talking about if (and it's a big if) it cost me money in the short term in order for future generations to see the benefits that I am utterly convinced will come in the longer term.

What makes you so convinced? Is it hope? Or is it based on something you know will happen based on your assessment of available evidence? If it's the latter please share. I'm not being obtuse here, just asking.

I believe that paying in the short term is a smaller "if" than you seem to believe, based on what I was saying earlier about revenue.

[jaggybunnet]

Makes perfect sense to me. For your benefit, I am talking about if (and it's a big if) it cost me money in the short term in order for future generations to see the benefits that I am utterly convinced will come in the longer term.

 

but with no proof or guarentee thet it will Grant

[GrantB]

Did you have proof or guarantees when you left home?

Did you have proof or guarantees when you took up a new job?

 

There are no such things in life. However, you weighed up the options and decided to do it anyway. This is no different.

[GrantB]

What makes you so convinced? Is it hope? Or is it based on something you know will happen based on your assessment of available evidence? If it's the latter please share. I'm not being obtuse here, just asking.

I believe that paying in the short term is a smaller "if" than you seem to believe, based on what I was saying earlier about revenue.

 

In the last year, despite the unionists telling everyone that big buisness has lost confidence in Scotland due to the uncertainty caused by the referendum, there has been £400M of inward investment in Scotland.

 

Here's a quote from a document I read answering the question of whether Scotland depends on subsidies from Westminster in order to run the country...

 

A recent study by the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR) think tank, based on official tax and spending figures, concludes that Scotland's North Sea oil and gas revenues, with other taxes, means it gets no net subsidy from the rest of the UK. And this is based upon shonky Westminster figures, which allocate a notional share of "UK national expenditure" to Scotland even though the money is actually spent in the South East of England. So we're paying for just under 10% of the bloody Olympics.

 

But if, like me, your eyes glaze over when you hear talk of balance sheets, budgets and the Barnett Formula, just consider that Westminster could very easily make it clear exactly how much Scotland puts into the Union, and exactly how much we get back in return. After all, it's Westminster which collects all the money and allocates where it goes. We can assume they know who pays what and who gets what.

 

If Scotland was indeed hopelessly dependent on UK handouts, Westminster would publish all the figures in glorious technicolour and upload videos to YouTube, and there would be a 10 part BBC documentary all about them. This would pretty much kill the independence debate stone dead, as Scots would be able to quantify those so-called Union benefits in precise detail. But instead finding out how much Scotland pays into the Union and how much we get back takes a crack squad of industrial strength accountants on amphetamines. So it's a safe bet that we're not dependent on subsidies from Westminster after all.

Edited February 25, 2012 by GrantB

[jaggybunnet]

Did you have proof or guarantees when you left home?

Did you have proof or guarantees when you took up a new job?

 

There are no such things in life. However, you weighed up the options and decided to do it anyway. This is no different.

 

no, i had the job before i left home as i though that was more sencible.

 

sorry as a political party surely even the snp know how to put a manafesto together on what they would do in the event of winning the vote?

[jaggybunnet]

In the last year, despite the unionists telling everyone that big buisness has lost confidence in Scotland due to the uncertainty caused by the referendum, there has been £400M of inward investment in Scotland.

 

Here's a quote from a document I read answering the question of whether Scotland depends on subsidies from Westminster in order to run the country...

 

so it was a non biased report then Grant

[hamiltonjag]

so it was a non biased report then Grant

Unlikely I would suggest.

As I said before, I'm looking for some figures and projections from a source with no vested interest. Looking at the language used and writing style adopted in the quote I'd suggest this was more likely written by McGlashan from "Absolutely" (

)