One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

I don't think we'll see much difference in tax levels in an independent Scotland tbh and it's clear from all the talk that we intend to be competitive for inward investment.

 

The real change will be in how the tax revenues are appointed. Did I read somewhere there's £100 billion earmarked for new nuclear weapons? There's £10 billion pro rata for starters.

[jaggybunnet]

I think the bigger concern is the gap between rich and poor, something which, if the National Party control all tax revenues, will be tackled efficiently. England's right of centre policies have been damaging Scotland in this regard for decades.

 

Time to control our own tax revenues and redistribute wealth in a more socially responsible manner.

 

 

do you really think this would happen its a myth.

[Mr Scruff]

Severe taxation? Only failing economies need to resort to such measures. Success is to be encouraged and it will be in an independent Scotland. Succesful businesses and social justice should go hand in hand.

I agree completely with this. But I don't see the natural logic in the underlined bit. It might be, but it might not.. We will need to develop a mature political/ economic environment, and that could easily take a generation if it is to happen (eg our most capable politicians head to Westminster generally, and there isn't the balance of political viewpoints at the moment that comes naturally from actually governing). Obviously your own view of the upside/ downside balance of that risk is what will define your view on the choice of independence/ union. This is why some of us wanted more clarity from those actually proposing independence.

 

As an example, I was listening to the radio this morning and they were debating the mansion house speech last night and Mark Carney's suggestion that the lending landscape will have to change to prevent overheating in the housing market. The UK government has to take into account there is more than London in this market. Scotland has anything but a buoyant housing market. If we retain fiscal union without political union we will have no influence on those policies; we do now. I would have much preferred (in fact for me it would be a virtual necessity) an honest appraisal of this by those proposing it, and a rational consideration of the alternative ie an independent currency. It's not enough to say "close your eyes, vote 'independence' and it'll all be fine on the day". But that's really the choice we have.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

Whatever next jb? You'll be trying to persuade us that the Wembley Wizards were a figment of our imagination.

 

Look, even the staunchest opponents of Scottish independence would surely have to concede that, at the very least, the National Party have ran a competent office since 2007.

 

I would suggest that they have earned the right to be trusted by the electorate.

 

As for Scottish influence over the Bank of England - come on, do you really think we have any meaningful part of the decision making processes as exists? I think not. In this regard, nothing will change.

 

In the short term, I'm looking forward to the change over being as smooth as possible and I think that it will be. I'm all for keeping the pound - the fiscal union makes sense for both parties, each a key trading partner of the other.

[jaggybunnet]

Whatever next jb? You'll be trying to persuade us that the Wembley Wizards were a figment of our imagination.

 

Look, even the staunchest opponents of Scottish independence would surely have to concede that, at the very least, the National Party have ran a competent office since 2007.

 

I would suggest that they have earned the right to be trusted by the electorate.

 

As for Scottish influence over the Bank of England - come on, do you really think we have any meaningful part of the decision making processes as exists? I think not. In this regard, nothing will change.

 

In the short term, I'm looking forward to the change over being as smooth as possible and I think that it will be. I'm all for keeping the pound - the fiscal union makes sense for both parties, each a key trading partner of the other.

 

if you mean pandered to the masses with no thought to how it is paid for then yes, ALL politicians are the same so if you think that we will some how become what all countries will aspire to then you are deluded, greed for power and wealth will take over, its what our species do and will always do.

[Jaggernaut]

if you mean pandered to the masses with no thought to how it is paid for then yes, ALL politicians are the same so if you think that we will some how become what all countries will aspire to then you are deluded, greed for power and wealth will take over, its what our species do and will always do.

 

So you'll agree that that is exactly what Westminster has done, and that it's greed and power that is at the heart of their desperation to keep us under their power.

[Norgethistle]

So you'll agree that that is exactly what Westminster has done, and that it's greed and power that is at the heart of their desperation to keep us under their power.

 

Its society, its what every government has done, its what so many people in power have always done since time began, human nature is to better themselves and money enables that

 

An MSP earns way above the average wages for Scotland (MSP in 2007 got £54,000 plus expenses, average wage in Scotland 2014 is around £30000), is that fair? Is that socialist? Surely under a socialist idealism a nurse or a teacher would earn way above a people representative (MSP)

 

This continual blame on Westminster is quite laughable, there is good article here and very balanced http://www.leftfootforward.org/2014/06/the-scottish-referendum-debate-is-doing-the-public-an-injustice/

[jaggybunnet]

So you'll agree that that is exactly what Westminster has done, and that it's greed and power that is at the heart of their desperation to keep us under their power.

 

no i am saying that it doesn't matter as it would be the same in an independent scotland. stop blaming Westminster for all your problems ans start looking closer to home.

[Norgethistle]

no i am saying that it doesn't matter as it would be the same in an independent scotland. stop blaming Westminster for all your problems ans start looking closer to home.

 

Exactly, Westminster are currently the scape goat, who will an independant Scotland blame? Brussels? Glasgow? The tories from 20 years ago?

[Jaggernaut]

Oh dear, the acknowledgement that Westminster wants to continue to control Scotland because of greed and power, and not for the benefit of Scots, seems to have rankled a couple of people.

[jaggybunnet]

Oh dear, the acknowledgement that Westminster wants to continue to control Scotland because of greed and power, and not for the benefit of Scots, seems to have rankled a couple of people.

 

 

oh dear nothing to say but still saying it loud anyway, yes camp at there best.....not

 

if you cant show that we would be better off and prove it please just say that as we all figured that out ages ago.

[Jaggernaut]

oh dear nothing to say but still saying it loud anyway, yes camp at there best.....not

 

if you cant show that we would be better off and prove it please just say that as we all figured that out ages ago.

 

Like you and everybody else in the world, I cannot prove anything about what will happen in the future, so your demand is meaningless.

[jaggybunnet]

Like you and everybody else in the world, I cannot prove anything about what will happen in the future, so your demand is meaningless.

 

ahh now the cop out, yes they can give us information on how much things would cost and how taxation rates..in fact they have on business tax, you have had decades to come up with a workable plans yet all we have got so far were either un costed promises or wild fantasy talk that even swinny has admitted was not the case.

[Jaggernaut]

ahh now the cop out, yes they can give us information on how much things would cost and how taxation rates..in fact they have on business tax, you have had decades to come up with a workable plans yet all we have got so far were either un costed promises or wild fantasy talk that even swinny has admitted was not the case.

 

I've read that several times, and I can't understand it.

[Granville Island]

ahh now the cop out, yes they can give us information on how much things would cost and how taxation rates..in fact they have on business tax, you have had decades to come up with a workable plans yet all we have got so far were either un costed promises or wild fantasy talk that even swinny has admitted was not the case.

 

I think this wisdom must form a core component of the British values curriculum that Dave Cameron wants in our schools...we could maybe also conduct a consultation exercise, over Ibrox way, with the fans of New Rainjurs to ensure that their views are central to this curriculum.

[jaggybunnet]

I've read that several times, and I can't understand it.

 

aahh denial now

[Guy Incognito]

 

It might be, it might not. My point was that it's an issue which would have helped sway me. There are monarchists in favour of independence too (as well as republicans against...)

 

I would say it increases the chances significantly, if only in the sense that we would be masters of our own destiny. The important thing is to get our hands back on the steering wheel before we start to decide which route our country takes.

 

 

I agree completely with this. But I don't see the natural logic in the underlined bit. It might be, but it might not.. We will need to develop a mature political/ economic environment, and that could easily take a generation if it is to happen (eg our most capable politicians head to Westminster generally, and there isn't the balance of political viewpoints at the moment that comes naturally from actually governing). Obviously your own view of the upside/ downside balance of that risk is what will define your view on the choice of independence/ union. This is why some of us wanted more clarity from those actually proposing independence.

 

As an example, I was listening to the radio this morning and they were debating the mansion house speech last night and Mark Carney's suggestion that the lending landscape will have to change to prevent overheating in the housing market. The UK government has to take into account there is more than London in this market. Scotland has anything but a buoyant housing market. If we retain fiscal union without political union we will have no influence on those policies; we do now. I would have much preferred (in fact for me it would be a virtual necessity) an honest appraisal of this by those proposing it, and a rational consideration of the alternative ie an independent currency. It's not enough to say "close your eyes, vote 'independence' and it'll all be fine on the day". But that's really the choice we have.

 

I am reading a book at the moment produced by the Common Weal think tank. It points out that currently in Scotland there is a lack of participation in local politics compared to almost every other developed country. Seemingly the average population for a local authority in Europe is around 5,000; in Scotland it is over 160,000. This means that power is very centralised and it often ends up being the same people, or the same type of people, who end up making decisions. That is not effective democracy. Regardless of whether we vote for independence something has to be put in place to ensure that Scotland's communities enjoy greater autonomy.

 

As far as national governance is concerned, Holyrood already has control (in an administrative sense) over some fairly significant areas of public life; and while things could undoubtedly be better, the sky hasn't exactly fallen down around us since Holyrood took over. For that reason, there aren't many areas where an independent Scottish government could be considered totally 'green'. Foreign policy is the main one that springs to mind. However, we could, potentially, have the experience of Scottish MPs from Westminster to draw on; people who have had first hand experience of running an actual country (we can only hope they have learned from their mistakes).

 

That said, there doesn't seem to be a great variety of political thinking in Westminster these days either. It tends to be: right, right, right a bit more, centre a bit. Whatever Westminster is it is not a hotbed of imaginative, vibrant ideas.

 

In a fiscal union the central bank has a duty to all its members. While we would no longer have a say in UK economic policy (if we were independent) it is debatable how much clout we have now. The fact that a central part of the government's plan to reignite the UK economy is to create a house price bubble in London suggests that it is negligible at best.

 

To me, it is a terrible plan. In London most people have virtually no chance of owning a property in the area they grew up in. It is also one of the main reasons why the economy got into a mess in the first place. If we weren't tied to an economy run along those lines then that, to my mind, is a major plus.

[Guy Incognito]

ahh now the cop out, yes they can give us information on how much things would cost and how taxation rates..in fact they have on business tax, you have had decades to come up with a workable plans yet all we have got so far were either un costed promises or wild fantasy talk that even swinny has admitted was not the case.

 

The SNP have made clear their view on income and business taxes but - and you know this already - the SNP may not form the first post-independence government. (Personally, their policy on business taxation makes me shudder, albeit I can see the logic behind it)

 

That they are unclear on the exact cost of setting up an independent state is also understandable - Westminster will not 'pre-negotiate' with them ahead of the referendum.

[jaggybunnet]

The SNP have made clear their view on income and business taxes but - and you know this already - the SNP may not form the first post-independence government. (Personally, their policy on business taxation makes me shudder, albeit I can see the logic behind it)

 

as with all yes camp answers..vague

 

That they are unclear on the exact cost of setting up an independent state is also understandable - Westminster will not 'pre-negotiate' with them ahead of the referendum.

 

as with all yes camp answers..vague, they can show costings, in fact swinny put in for them so why not show them. as for currency that is even worse with anything else but currency union only being spoken about as an after thought that they hope wont happen

 

 

 

"the SNP may not form the first post-independence government" No but they would have been the ones doing all the negotiations with who ever the deigned to "invite" so it is very relevant.

Edited June 16, 2014 by jaggybunnet

[Mr Scruff]

I am reading a book at the moment produced by the Common Weal think tank. It points out that currently in Scotland there is a lack of participation in local politics compared to almost every other developed country. Seemingly the average population for a local authority in Europe is around 5,000; in Scotland it is over 160,000. This means that power is very centralised and it often ends up being the same people, or the same type of people, who end up making decisions. That is not effective democracy. Regardless of whether we vote for independence something has to be put in place to ensure that Scotland's communities enjoy greater autonomy.

Completely agree with this. My preference is for a federal structure for the UK, which actually might have some chance of coming in if we vote 'no' funnily enough. But I stand by my position that it could easily take a generation to achieve the political maturity required under 'independence' to make it work.

 

 

As far as national governance is concerned, Holyrood already has control (in an administrative sense) over some fairly significant areas of public life; and while things could undoubtedly be better, the sky hasn't exactly fallen down around us since Holyrood took over. For that reason, there aren't many areas where an independent Scottish government could be considered totally 'green'. Foreign policy is the main one that springs to mind. However, we could, potentially, have the experience of Scottish MPs from Westminster to draw on; people who have had first hand experience of running an actual country (we can only hope they have learned from their mistakes).

Again I agree with this. But it's not really what I mean by political maturity ie it's not just the experience of those voted in, but what platforms are adopted, and the ability of democracy to ultimately balance these. On a simplistic level, we need to develop beyond the simple narrative that anything bad that we experience is because of England, and anything good is because of Scotland.

 

In a fiscal union the central bank has a duty to all its members. While we would no longer have a say in UK economic policy (if we were independent) it is debatable how much clout we have now. The fact that a central part of the government's plan to reignite the UK economy is to create a house price bubble in London suggests that it is negligible at best.

 

To me, it is a terrible plan. In London most people have virtually no chance of owning a property in the area they grew up in. It is also one of the main reasons why the economy got into a mess in the first place. If we weren't tied to an economy run along those lines then that, to my mind, is a major plus.

We have had a significant impact on UK economic policy, and the role of the Central Bank over the years, especially relatively recently. This will go, and it is this to which I am referring. If we do have a a currency union, then that without fiscal union, and that without political union doesn't at all work for me - I think this has been amply demonstrated over the last few years. Central Bank's powers are limited or extended by political process. We would have no part of that. I understand the difficulties with young, newly independent, currencies, and that they are often pegged for value and borrowing to other ones. But that would at least have been independence rather than 'independence'.

 

In the UK there definitely is an emerging London problem as far as growth and value go (not just housing). This will impact even on an 'independent' Scotland. I've been interested in debates recently about potential solutions to that. We would have no stake in this, but be highly affected by it if we are 'independent'. I do appreciate that there's pros and cons to considering this one, and that it might be better to try and insulate ourselves. But currency union without fiscal/ political union seems one of the worst solutions.

[The Jukebox Rebel]

On a simplistic level, we need to develop beyond the simple narrative that anything bad that we experience is because of England, and anything good is because of Scotland.

 

And yet the "Yes" campaign might be best serviced by taking it down to an even more simplistic level. As an independent nation we will be richer and therefore everything will be that little bit better all around.

 

Even without Oil and Gas, our economic output is about the same as the UK's. With Oil and Gas, it's a lot higher.

 

Norway have 3/4 Trillion Pounds in an oild fund. We should have the same, yet have hee-haw.

 

It's time to take our country back and look after ourselves properly.

[Big Dan]

• 
  Scotland’s bank balance is healthier than the UK’s. Over the past five years, Scotland has been better off than the UK as a whole to the tune of £1,600 per person.
  

• 
  We’ve generated more tax per head than the rest of the UK in each of the last 33 years.
  

• 
  Scotland has a lower fiscal deficit than the UK – averaging 7.2% of GDP compared to 8.4% for the UK as a whole over the past five years.
  

• 
  In terms of national wealth per head, Scotland is the 14th wealthiest nation in the OECD club of developed nations – that’s ahead of the UK at just 18th place.
  

• 
  Scotland is the top location in the UK for foreign direct investment outside London and the South-East of England – a great expression of confidence in Scotland’s economic future.
  

• 
  Analysis from the Financial Times shows Scotland’s exports total £73.6bn a year – and that’s even without Scotland’s North Sea oil production.
  

• 
  Scotland’s food and drink industry turns over more than £13 bn every year, and last year the equivalent of 40 bottles of Scotch whisky were sold overseas every second.
  

• 
  Our life sciences sector is one of the fastest growing in Europe – the value it adds to Scotland’s economy stood at £960million in 2011, up 9% on 2010.
  

• 
  Scotland’s creative industries have a combined turnover of £5bn – with growing strengths across our heritage, artistic and cultural industries.
  

• 
  Manufacturers in Scotland export £15.4bn worth of goods abroad annually.
  

• 
  Scotland’s tourism sector employs almost 200,000 people and contributes £3.1bn to the economy annually.
  

• 
  Scotland has one of the world’s strongest higher education sectors, with the most top universities relative to our size – producing talented graduates to contribute to our economy.
  

• 
  Scotland has 60% of the EU’s oil reserves, with the North Sea generating around £34.3bn in the next five years.
  

• 
  There remains up to £1.5 trillion wholesale value of oil and gas in the North Sea, with production forecast to continue to the 2050s and beyond.
  

• 
  We’ve got 25% of Europe’s offshore wind and tidal energy potential, putting Scotland at the forefront of the coming renewables boom.
  

• And we have 10% of Europe’s wave energy potential – with projects in Scotland leading the way in this cutting edge sector. It is a definite Yes from me.
  

[Mr Scruff]

So, in summary, Scotland has clearly done well from, and contributes positively to, our union with the rest of the UK.

 

The future, though, is not so clear.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Mr Scruff

[Norgethistle]

So currency union now fully denied I await plan B from Alec with baited breath

[Jaggernaut]

So currency union now fully denied I await plan B from Alec with baited breath

 

That should be "bated."