Marketing Your Team

[McKennan]

*Click*

 

I've often wondered how best to market Thistle. We're always bitching about low crowds, that our club is skint, that we're in the shadow of the Ugly Sisters. This is an interesting take on how St Pauli got itself noticed.

 

While I don't see the link between St Pauli and Celtic as 'outsiders' (more like the establishment for the latter) as the writer suggests, I am forced to wonder out loud what could be done using the web to reposition Thistle.

 

Above and beyond the anti Old Firm sentiment the article might invite, any thoughts or lessons to be had from St Pauli?

[mrD]

*Click*

 

I've often wondered how best to market Thistle. We're always bitching about low crowds, that our club is skint, that we're in the shadow of the Ugly Sisters. This is an interesting take on how St Pauli got itself noticed.

 

While I don't see the link between St Pauli and Celtic as 'outsiders' (more like the establishment for the latter) as the writer suggests, I am forced to wonder out loud what could be done using the web to reposition Thistle.

 

Above and beyond the anti Old Firm sentiment the article might invite, any thoughts or lessons to be had from St Pauli?

 

For years ive been going on about St pauli on the various jags forums that have been around only to be met with derision. Fact of the matter is that st pauli went from a team that barely got 2000 ppl going to the matches to being regular sell outs with a global reach almost unmarked.

 

something like that cannot be made on the web - it is not marketing (well not to start off with anyway). It was a response to unique circumstances taht got a small provincial club indentified with bigger developments in society. Sadly thistle would have been in an ideal position to respond to such a trend some years back with teh anti sectarian flavour to it.

 

But as has been demonstrated too many people have been happy with a negative form of anti sectarian sentiment as opposed to an outward postive affirmation of that identity. Indeed, whenever i have made posts about politics within football - its been beaten down for people wanting us to have an apolitical stance as opposed to progressive stance.

 

In short, we missed the boat. Celtic now are teh choice club of progressive minded people who want somethign positive out of football rather than racism sexism misogyny sectairsm etc.

 

and the rise of the edl and sdl shows us how far an apolitical stance within support goes (i've heard that some of our nge boys have been on sdl mobs - hope thats not true)

 

well done thistle fans we cant even define ourselves with anti sectarianism any more.

 

pathetic innit.

Edited September 28, 2010 by mrD

[MerryHell]

Celtic now are teh choice club of progressive minded people who want somethign positive out of football rather than racism sexism misogyny sectairsm etc.and the rise of the edl and sdl shows us how far an apolitical stance within support goes. well done thistle fans we cant even define ourselves with anti sectarianism any more.pathetic innit.

 

My wife has been a Celtic season ticket holder for over 10 years and would laugh at you for being so misguided. Just at the weekend she was called a 'c*nt' for daring to cross at a pedestrian crossing and making (another Celtic supporter) have to stop his car. The light was red and the green man was on. She's had her a*se felt and all sorts of stuff shouted at her. She would never describe Parkhead as a place for 'progressive minded people'. Herself excluded!

While I can accept we haven't sold ourselves as well as we may have in the past, there's no point in pretending that either of the Old Firm present an all welcoming, happy place where all can go and just enjoy the football.

Edited September 28, 2010 by MerryHell

[B.C.G. JAG]

I brought up the St.Pauli thing last year and similarly got tons of derision for trying to politicise Thistle. However, the problem with this City is that Football IS political, and even simply being anti-sectarian IS a political position. I agree, using that sentiment as a way to positively define ourselves may well have gone. I think the Kids For Free and Real Scottish Football campaigns have had designs in the right direction, trying to create an air of authenticity and family friendliness in stark contrast to what our rivals offer. But the problem is these things don't work on their own and unless the product on the park is entertaining, then all these ideas won't amount to much.

 

I'd also like to add that we should be thoroughly disgusted by any of the Thistle support attaching itself to the SDL. Sometimes you have to a little teeny weeny bit political, even if it's just to say you disapprove of right wing extremists.

[The Earl of Hathaway]

I think the 'masterstroke' that they refer to is marketing the club in a way that doesn't feel like you're being marketed AT, rather that you're involved IN something - as how not to do it see: 'The Real Scottish Football'fiasco of a few seasons back.

I think the problem with Thistle is that for too long we've defined ourselves by what we're not, rather than what we are. There's no point in presenting ourselves as some kind of bastion against the adverse influence of the Old Firm because people just get sick of hearing the 'poor us, look at those b*stards' line repeated ad infinitum.

We need to make Firhill a good place to come to because people WANT to come here. Further to this, the problem and quite a few of us know about it first-hand) is that we encourage people to come along and the team b*lls it up on the pitch so no one ends up happy - the hardcore go away p*ssed off and our visitors wonder what all the fuss was about after spending 17 pound and near enough 2 hours in a f*cking library populated by grumbling malcontents. Over to you Mr McCall - let's make it a 'happy place to be' sooner rather than later...

[McKennan]

Far be it from me to frame the terms of the debate people want to get into but I wasn't asking about politicising Thistle, although some people will have their views on where we are in all that. Neither was I hoping we'd get caught up in the issue about St Pauli and Celtic and I'm disappointed people have raised the example of a small team making good only to be shouted down.

 

However, let me ask this in the light of reading the IBWM article - what lessons can we learn from St Pauli? Can we look at our community - which includes one of Europe's most prestigious universities - and draw from that?

[mrD]

good discussion will be back on when this is england 86 finishes

[McKennan]

But the problem is these things don't work on their own and unless the product on the park is entertaining, then all these ideas won't amount to much.

 

There's the rub - there are people all over the world following sports clubs they (it would appear) have no earthly right or interest in following. For years in the early 1990s, I wondered who the LA Raiders were because there were jackets, t-shirts and baseball caps all over the place. Outside of a marketing budget - and that's part of it - how does that happen? You can bet it has nothing to do with 'the product on the park'.

 

You can bet St Pauli fans weren't thrilled with their 'product' but something hit a chord with a bigger audience.

Edited September 28, 2010 by McKennan

[McKennan]

We need to make Firhill a good place to come to because people WANT to come here.

 

Agreed. However, if you look at St Pauli there's a bit more to it than 22 people kicking a bag of air about the park. What is it we (you, I and the club) could do to emulate that success or at least pique someone's curiosity in the same way the German club does?

[B.C.G. JAG]

The good Earl has it spot on about 'being marketed to' - these things only really work when the ordinary punter feels like they've been a part of it all. Perhaps one avenue is looking to alternative shirt sponsorship with something that possibly better defines us rather than just accepting the highest bidder (granted beggars/choosers and all that). All the talk of Ms Mone had me wondering if we were going to end up with a bra printed on the front of the shirts next season. Much as that particular thought might be a bit hard to swallow, I think it illustrates that we could be doing something interesting with our corporate relationships. OK, we can't afford to just hand over a cheque to UNICEF, but perhaps the club could seek out something bold and imaginative that would not only bring in some sponsorship but perhaps also define us better than an asset management company does. I hate to use phrases like 'thinking out the box' but perhaps that whats needed...

[B.C.G. JAG]

There's the rub - there are people all over the world following sports clubs they (it would appear) have no earthly right or interest in following. For years in the early 1990s, I wondered who the LA Raiders were because there were jackets, t-shirts and baseball caps all over the place. Outside of a marketing budget - and that's part of it - how does that happen? You can bet it has nothing to do with 'the product on the park'.

 

You can bet St Pauli fans weren't thrilled with their 'product' but something hit a chord with a bigger audience.

Very true and very frustrating.

[potty trained]

i wonder how the raiders and st pauli fans feel when peopple are buying tops with their crest on, who have no idea what their "teams" score was at the weekend.

 

maybe thats what cowan/hughes were aiming for with the pink strips? matbe you should pat them on the back for that?

 

Anyway... what a lot of nonsense.

 

Fact is, you go to the football to watch football. I would bloody hate Firhill if I had to stand beside 20 or 30 folk, who were only there because the badge was a trendy add on and they were only there to be in a gang...is that not just like a religion?

 

Because in Scotland, only 2 things matter, football and religion. Any comparsion with a foreign team is a waste of time. Unless their fan ethos is religious.

 

 

 

How many teams in Scotland connect themselves with religion?

 

How many teams in Scotland are struggling to get folk through the door?

 

How many teams in Scotland are charging inflated prices?

 

How many teams in Scotland have not reduced their prices... since the tv money left... since the product deteriorated... since the gates dropped?

 

How many teams in Scotland are playing entertaining football(and i use entertaining in the broadest sense)?

 

How many teams in the junior/highland ranks are surviving, and turning a profit, because the price they charge on the gate and in the bar is an acceptable on for an acceptable product?

 

 

Do you think we are the only team struggling?

 

Imagine you are a QOTS fan, more people leave Dumfries to watch the Old Firm, than those who stay to watch Queens! You think we have it bad!

 

In an area like Ayrshire, how many folk go to United games... How many folk from Ayrshire go to Ibrox!

 

I'm sorry McK, I enjoy your wit and you blazay posts. But I think the journo in you is controlling this thread.

 

Fact. Until, there is a shake up of Scottish football, where a wage and gate cap is put in place, where we learn from similar models, like the smaller european leagues, then we will keep dying... especially if the product is piss poor.

[McKennan]

I'm sorry McK, I enjoy your wit and you blazay posts. But I think the journo in you is controlling this thread.

 

Potty Trained, I wish that were the case. Just out of curiosity, would you tell folk who came to Firhill because they thought they'd find something new at Thistle* to get lost? Blow them off as foolish or glory hunters?

 

*Stay with me here. I'm on a roll now.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

In short, we missed the boat. Celtic now are teh choice club of progressive minded people who want somethign positive out of football rather than racism sexism misogyny sectairsm etc.

 

You've got to be a troll. There is no way that I could agree with any of that.

[mrD]

You've got to be a troll. There is no way that I could agree with any of that.

 

If only I was...

 

For people being so into football i am amazed at the sheer lack of knowledge that abounds within our support when it comes to fan culture in Glasgow. Here is in brief how I make my observation about Celtic being the team that a progressive neutral would pick that wants to get into supporting a team.

 

1.) Celtic fans against fascism - campaign started in early 90s within Celtic support to combat racism and fascism within Celtic support. Big tie in between them and Red Action and Anti Fascist Action (if you know the left in the UK this will have some meaning).

 

2.) Republicanism - whatever ones views on republicanism there are progressive strands within it that goes way back to James Connelly. Of course there are many within Celtic support that identify with the more reactionary strand of republicanism ala Padraig Pearse sometimes known as 'rosary republicanism.' That does not contradict me though, the point is that there was (and is) an organised progressive leftist republican strand within the Celtic support who usually where involved with the anti fascist action stuff.. This was an important strand probably till the late 90s and centres around a socialist fanzine.

 

3.)Anti-sectarianism - sadly owing to a piss poor analysis of what the problem of sectarianism is in Scottish culture, many Thistle fans rest in their laurels regarding their (negative) anti sectarianism. This is sad because I think this was something distinctive we did have to offer once upon a time but as I said earlier, we missed that boat.

 

How did that happen? Well again contrary to the straw man idea we often have of a monolithic Celtic support, there has always been an organised attempt to combat sectarianism in terms of loyalism and orange ism but also sectarianism stemming within their support too. A recent example of this was the green brigade drowning out the sectarian song “roamin in the gloamin”. So whilst there is sectarianism amongst the Celtic support there is also an organised positive anti sectarianism within that support base that would be attractive to progressives.

 

4.)Inclusiveness - The left within Celtic support have managed to create a narrative of themselves being a team formed by immigrants that were systematically discriminated against (which is to be fair true). the difference from the standard fan narrative about it meaning that they are an Irish catholic club for Irish Catholics, the left have used this narrative differently to say that they are welcoming fan base and are cognisant of the problems faced by immigrants or refugees or asylum seekers face because of this common history. Thus, this organised strand have been involved in all sorts of community projects welcoming immigrants and refugees. Walk around anywhere in Glasgow these days and you will see 'refugees welcome' stickers from Celtic fan groupings.

 

This, organised strand (manifested today as green brigade and tal fanzine), has over the year, replaced what could have been our mantle as the progressive club in Glasgow. Green Brigade is a pretty broad church politically - there are anarchists, socialists, all sorts but it is all centred around a being a politically left grouping within the support.

 

I think this answers your query too maryhell

Edited September 29, 2010 by mrD

[mrD]

I brought up the St.Pauli thing last year and similarly got tons of derision for trying to politicise Thistle. However, the problem with this City is that Football IS political, and even simply being anti-sectarian IS a political position. I agree, using that sentiment as a way to positively define ourselves may well have gone. I think the Kids For Free and Real Scottish Football campaigns have had designs in the right direction, trying to create an air of authenticity and family friendliness in stark contrast to what our rivals offer. But the problem is these things don't work on their own and unless the product on the park is entertaining, then all these ideas won't amount to much.

 

I'd also like to add that we should be thoroughly disgusted by any of the Thistle support attaching itself to the SDL. Sometimes you have to a little teeny weeny bit political, even if it's just to say you disapprove of right wing extremists.

 

Agreed completely. There is no such thing as being apolitical. Just as the rise of the BNP in working class areas has correllated with teh withdrawal from those communities by the labour movement (to go to pastures new in middle england), so too in football has the rise of edl and sdl been in such a poltical vacumme. If jags fans have been out with sdl then thats very sad, but not unsuprising in the context of so called apolitical culture.

 

 

As for the product on the park stuff yes taht is important although st pauli fans were going there irrespective of where they were at performance wise. Kids for free defiantely right direction. Standnig being allowed again right direction. Id say a great move for ptfc would be to give concessions to people on benefits as students have em and people on the dole are more skint than them. Contrary to what some would like to think the club is situated in areas where statistically there are high amounts of workless housholds - not byres road. Having students in cheaper but not benefits or low income people seems to have a deserving poor/undersrving poor dichotomy to it.

[uberteeb]

How much do St Pauli charge to get in? Can you get a beer at the game? Can you stand at the game? Do the fans sing throughout the match, have banners, etc.? Teams like that offer an experience above just football. Oh and they do it in a fun environment that is value for money. I’d be amazed if there was more ‘neutrals’ than a Jags game than I have fingers on my hand, this goes for any game in our division, it is truly terrible value and offers nothing in return for the “non-Jags Mad” individual.

 

Whether or not Thistle should get themselves into politics I don’t know, despite having an interest in politics of my own (as I’m sure most do), my interest in the politics of football in the West of Scotland is minimal, in fact I find it so pathetic I have no interest. Invariably due to our location that would be the kind of ‘politics’ anything like this would descend into.

 

Also, whilst this green brigade mob have been mentioned on here before, how welcome are they at Parkhead? A lot of the Celtic fans I know think they are muppets. And how big is it? As a percentage of the support at Celtic Park it must be tiny. So lets be generous and say 3,000 people are in it, that’s 5% of the support at the ground. Translate that to us and you would have 100 people doing it in a ground not conducive to creating an atmosphere. On a good day, or for a big game, you get at least that number at the city end singing and trying to create an atmosphere anyway (does not apply under current circumstances). So I think it’s fair to say any movement to that kind of fan grouping would result in something equating to the hugely embarrassing and pathetic “Livingston Drum Beat Mafia”, don’t see Livingstone tops being sold worldwide or them attracting fans due to their ‘movement’.

 

Despite our board being given dogs abuse I think the Real Scottish Football idea was a good idea on paper (very poorly executed). I think the positive press for the pink away tops was a very good idea. The kids for free thing (and all the fanzone/passport/flag tuff that goes with it) is a brilliant idea. It’s great that the Trust or whoever were bussing in people from carehomes, refugees, etc. We have had good ideas, probably more than most clubs at our level. But at the end we are flogging a product that even when it is good (from a fans perspective) really isn’t very good from a neutrals point of view. And unfortunately it isn’t often ‘good’, even from our point of view.

 

A bit negative but my feelings towards Thistle have never been so negative.

[Windcalmer]

Football clubs and politics have gone hand in hand for years. Big money smooths out the raw roots but they are still there.

 

In terms of marketing Thistle there are a few basics that we can learn from other teams…

The Badge. I’ll start with FC St Pauli… they have a club badge that seems to remain largely unchanged in their history. Good branding doesn’t need to change. Ever.

St Pauli have also got this skull and crossbones thing going on – an identifiable signature, arguably more well-known than their actual club badge. Instant rebellion. Done. We are Thistle, we have a thistle - my feeling is that we don’t need a second id, but our first should be better.

 

The strip. Stop messing about with the strip. Any club worth their salt has played in largely the same home top for nigh on eternity. Change details but not the look. We are Thistle we play in stripes, hoops, joker / battenburg squares, pinstripes, crinkle-cut wobble stripes, eyesore telly interference patterns. Make a decision, stick to it. The away strip is where you make radical changes - we’ve been good at radical, not so good at pleasing on the eye.

 

A strong sense of identity. Herein lies a problem. Celtic and Rangers have strong identities – not entirely pleasant, but strong. Barcelona, arguably the biggest footballing ‘brand’ in the world have valid political roots and history. St Pauli now inspire fierce loyalty, their turning popint being a deliberate political stance against the fascist-hooliganism of the mainstream.

 

To call yourself ‘the alternative’ doesn’t make you the alternative. I see Thistle as a more enlightened club than its near neighbours, I would predict a rise of socialist interest given the current government and economic climate. Our club history on the web site is uninspiring to say the least and says nothing about the roots of our club. Passion comes from the terraces, not the pitch. We need the passion of a core group – the basis of any revolution, from there we gather followers. The club can’t actually do that (take St Pauli as a case study), it’s the people. The last time I remember any real fire about Firhill was when we almost disappeared. We failed to capitalize on the passion then (and we can look towards the board for that) and it may take us to get to an equally grim place again to find the fire.

[Lambies Lost Doo]

I'm sorry mrD but I think you're viewing Celtic with some deep red spectacles on. It's total tunnel vision. I try not to multi-quote discussions like this as it turns people into mini lawyers poring over mistakes in grammar instead of a debate so I have replied as below.

 

Red Action and Anti Fascist Action are fringe groups on the far left of the political spectrum far removed from the ordinary mainstream punter on the street and nothing that appeals to myself. It reminds me of the the time I was walking down Buchanan St and there were 3 stalls - Socialist Workers, Solidarity and Communist Party. All with the same people there year in year out. Little representation but a lot of noise and hassle for others. Racism and Facism? What about sectarianism in their support? Conveniently avoided. People on the left have created a myth that they are stemming the rise of fascists (I think you would struggle to give me an example of a real fascist when you use the term correctly) and racists. Anyone from the political spectrum, liberal, nationalist with a small n, conservative etc has the same ability and often the same views in direct contrast to your far right organisations. That is why their vote and support is so low.

 

The republicanism which is dominant with Celtic support is a form of bitter Irish republicanism which is a turn off for many people. It is not progressive it causes division and you would struggle to get examples or any large support in Ireland. Any Celtic/Socialist/Republican political views I have experienced from people and one of my old teachers also has a bitter Irish republicanism underneath when you poke around. I remember reading an interview with the former SSP MSP Rosie Kane who said Socialism in Scotland had elements of Irish republicanism which made her feel uncomfortable especially when the rebel songs sprang up after a few shandies.

 

These "progressive, socialist, celtic fans" should get their own house in order before they start looking at others. Celtic fans and Rangers fans are still dominated by sectarianism even if it may be the "90 minute bigot". I have never felt included when among Celtic fans as a dominat group including guys I would call good friends. When they get together as Celtic fans and not as lads out for a drink they change, have the old chip on their shoulder and the majority of the songs they sing are Irish rebel songs, ditties about terrorists and other assorted nonsense. I've always laughed at the mindset of Celtic being the "immigrant club". Why do cities like London which is a real immigrant city with people from all over the world not have a club like this? Why does the Indian/Pakistani community in Glasgow not have a club as I'm sure they were discriminated when they started coming to Glasgow in large numbers in the 1950's and 1960's? Why does that community not hark on about their "immigrant heritage"? How can Irish immigration stemming from the late 1800's have anything in common with say a Somalian or Iraqi immigrant today? It's far too simplistic.

 

To sum up the Celtic fans support a club owned by an foreign billionaire and ran by people who talk about brands and franchise and continue to strangle the rest of Scottish football for their own greed. A right bunch of lefties.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Lambies Lost Doo

[carefulpuntgeorge]

Personally, I think we need a samba rhythm going constantly throughout the game.

[Windcalmer]

Personally, I think we need a samba rhythm going constantly throughout the game.

 

It would be a start.

[Steven H]

Personally, I think we need a samba rhythm going constantly throughout the game.

 

we can't even get people to hit the back wall of the Shed in the right rhythm during the redyella army chant.

[Windcalmer]

As much as I don't want to publicise the 'other' teams in Glasgow

 

 

I can't fail to find this exciting. Wouldn't make me switch though.

[BermondseyBoy]

Forgot st pauli/celtic route.I want to be a mini millwall we could do with a siege mentality tough atmosphere and the sense of camaraderie and loyalty against the world that breeds

Bus welcome v bus welcome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3KDon1T8qE

 

 

I know which one i'd rather have anyday,GB are mugs

[Windcalmer]

Forgot st pauli/celtic route.I want to be a mini millwall we could do with a siege mentality tough atmosphere and the sense of camaraderie and loyalty against the world that breeds

Bus welcome v bus welcome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3KDon1T8qE

 

 

I know which one i'd rather have anyday,GB are mugs

 

Aye, very good. The comments below the second clip sum up the mentality there. I would hate to see that at Firhill.

In relation to the first clip, it's hard to imagine the team getting fired up by 5 guys, 3 wee guys and a dug - 'alright Jackie, alright SiDo, alright Archie', 'Aye, nae bad.'