Would You Support A Move To Part-Time Football?

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

Simple enough question.

[Jaggernaut]

No it's not.

 

What does "support" mean? Do we actively desire it? If the club announced that it was moving to become part-time playing staff only would we continue to support the team? A mix of full-time and part-time?

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

No it's not.

 

I think it is, Jaggernaut. But, let me expand on it.

 

If the club were to announce playing staff would be part time from the start of the 2011/12 season is it a move you would agree with?

 

I think we have to be brave. We're still a relatively 'big' name in Scottish football. I reckon other teams would follow suit should we make this bold step. Following that, I think we'd be in an excellent position to snap up some of the best part-time players out there.

 

League reconstruction, staff reconstruction, infrastructure reconstruction, pricing reconstruction - they game in this country needs ripped up and started again.

Edited December 12, 2010 by The Incredible Adam Spark

[MWM]

Whats so hard to answer about it?

 

The club are losing an absolute fortune chasing an empty dream, and as has been proven by Cowdenbeath and to a lesser extent over the last couple of years, Raith, the gap isn't really that big between part-time and full-time.

 

I was once of the opinion that we should never consider it, but when I see crowds like yesterdays I don't think we have a choice. Unless Dmitri the Russian Oil Tycoon wants to bankroll the club.

[Jaggernaut]

I think it is, Jaggernaut. But, just for you, let me expand on it.

 

If the club were to announce playing staff would be part time from the start of the 2011/12 season is it a move you would agree with?

 

I think we have to be brave. We're still a relatively 'big' name in Scottish football. I reckon other teams would follow suit should we make this bold step. Following that, I think we'd be in an excellent position to snap up some of the best part-time players out there.

 

League reconstruction, staff reconstruction, infrastructure reconstruction, pricing reconstruction - they game in this country needs ripped up and started again.

Then my answer is an emphatic "no". The notion that Thistle will somehow be the model of the best way to run a football club (remember that from anywhere) and will somehow cause others to follow our model is naive. We've already been there and done that, and regardless of how many millions they might owe, just about every other team that was with us in the SPL back then is going strong. Remember how it became common knowledge that even our star players were on a basic of £500? Did that cause other teams to follow suit? No, it caused other teams to buy up our best players! And were have we been since then? Bottom of first division, and even lower.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Jaggernaut

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

just about every other team that was with us in the SPL back then is going strong.

 

I'd counter by saying I believe that to be the naive view. How are you judging strength? League position? The climate has changed. And by that I mean the economic situation facing Scotland's clubs. They can't be 'comfortable' owing millions of pounds to anyone anymore.

 

Christ, even teams that appear to owe nothing - St Mirren, for example - are struggling to keep their heads above water.

Edited December 12, 2010 by The Incredible Adam Spark

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

Then my answer is an emphatic "no". The notion that Thistle will somehow be the model of the best way to run a football club (remember that from anywhere) and will somehow cause others to follow our model is naive.

 

And this isn't about hubris. This is about doing what has to be done. Full time clubs the length and breadth of Scotland are waiting for someone to take the initiative. If we recognise that football has become a business, then it's time to set the dreams of a Premier League return to one side and focus on running the club like a succesful one. And by that I mean one that has a fighting chance of survival.

[Jaggernaut]

I'd counter by saying I believe that to be the naive view. How are you judging strength? League position? The climate has changed. And by that I mean the economic situation facing Scotland's clubs. They can't be 'comfortable' owing millions of pounds to anyone anymore.

 

Christ, even teams that appear to owe nothing - St Mirren, for example - are struggling to keep their heads above water.

I'm judging strength as playing in the SPL and getting the lion's share of coverage, advertising, tv money etc etc. The climate has indeed changed, not just for football teams but for every kind of organization, be it art clubs or universities. I'm not saying that clubs in the top flight are "comfortable" owing millions, but the fact is that they are there, playing were we can only aspire to go, but where we'll never go if we become a part-time club. I honestly believe that oblivion would come to us faster by going down that route. Or at best we'd be the equivalent of Linlithgow Rose. I like my football, but I wouldn't buy a season ticket or make a round trip of 70+ miles every other week to watch that.

[Jaggernaut]

And this isn't about hubris. This is about doing what has to be done. Full time clubs the length and breadth of Scotland are waiting for someone to take the initiative. If we recognise that football has become a business, then it's time to set the dreams of a Premier League return to one side and focus on running the club like a succesful one. And by that I mean one that has a fighting chance of survival.

I think that you're being naive. Unilaterally declaring that we've abandoned full-time football would probably lead to other clubs welcoming the fact that Thistle had thrown in the towel, leaving them with one fewer nuisance club that might occasionally interfere with them getting their games against the OF. It's perfectly plain that SPL clubs (for example) will never act for the overall benefit of the game; as you said, it's about self-preservation. And us packing it in as a realistic competitor (albeit one currently at a low point) would simply be treated as an opportunity for them to consolidate their own positions.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Jaggernaut

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

I'm not saying that clubs in the top flight are "comfortable" owing millions, but the fact is that they are there, playing were we can only aspire to go, but where we'll never go if we become a part-time club. I honestly believe that oblivion would come to us faster by going down that route. Or at best we'd be the equivalent of Linlithgow Rose. I like my football, but I wouldn't buy a season ticket or make a round trip of 70+ miles every other week to watch that.

 

You're typing that while assuming the status quo would remain with regards to other full-time clubs. As I've said, I don't see that being the case. We've recently seen Raith Rovers, Dunfermline and a 'strong' Dundee United making noises about cashflow difficulties.

 

Forget short-term ambitions like scrabbling around the lower reaches of the SPL. I'd rather secure the long-term future of the club before I worry about that.

[Jaggernaut]

You're typing that while assuming the status quo would remain with regards to other full-time clubs. As I've said, I don't see that being the case. We've recently seen Raith Rovers, Dunfermline and a 'strong' Dundee United making noises about cashflow difficulties.

 

Forget short-term ambitions like scrabbling around the lower reaches of the SPL. I'd rather secure the long-term future of the club before I worry about that.

Throughout my entire life I've seen football clubs in Scotland complaining about cash flow and pleading for investment. And with the exception of Third Lanark, they're all still there in one guise or another, the full-time clubs still full-time, the part-timers still part-time.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

It's perfectly plain that SPL clubs (for example) will never act for the overall benefit of the game

 

Then those that remain in the SPL will go bust trying to remain there and those relegated clubs will be unable to maintain their current non-footballing position due to the massive drop in gate receipts, advertising revenue and TV money.

[1 John Lambie]

If it's a matter of part-time or no club, then it's an easy answer. But if there's a choice, we should remain full-time for as long as possible.

 

My opinion is that next season we'll have a mixture of full-time & part-time players. I'll also add, I think if one team in the 1st Div goes part-time, several others will follow. Going to take guts for whoever does it 1st though.

[McKennan]

I wouldn't have any objection to a part-time Thistle side. Some of the more entertaining games I recall from my yoof were played by part-time teams.

 

Without wanting to hijack Adam's thread I'd be interested to know how many fans would contribute to a monthly pot to keep any given player on a full time wage.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I wouldn't have any objection to a part-time Thistle side. Some of the more entertaining games I recall from my yoof were played by part-time teams.

 

Without wanting to hijack Adam's thread I'd be interested to know how many fans would contribute to a monthly pot to keep any given player on a full time wage.

More or less what I was going to post.

I don't believe that we'll see a return to say the seventies model when for a spell a relatively successful Jags side only had two full time players (Alan Hansen & Roughie). Back then there was more or less full employment but nowadays someone in a full time job is not likely to risk that playing football.

Today I'd imagine the equivalent of the part time days of old would be a squad made up of youngsters, a handful of journeyman full timers on a low salary and genuine part timers (probably ex full timers getting on a bit).

I keep making the same point that if we played in a larger league the drop to part time football (or a modern day hybrid version) wouldn't be so drastic a move.

If those 2x10 team SPL leagues were to materialise it would be very alarming if we were opting for part time football at the same time. So I feel a move to part time football so much depends on what's happening externally with regards to league reconstruction.

Edited December 12, 2010 by lady-isobel-barnett

[MerryHell]

If it's a matter of part-time or no club, then it's an easy answer. But if there's a choice, we should remain full-time for as long as possible.

 

I agree - if it's a choice between part-time or nothing, then needs must.

 

However, I dont see that us going part time would influence others to follow suit immediately. The notion that lots of clubs are looking for someone to take the lead is IMO nonsense. When clubs have been going to the wall like Third Lanark, Clydebank, Airdrie, Gretna for years, it still hasn't influenced other clubs to try and work more within their means - it's always been the bank or HMRC that have said 'enough is enough'. Hell, even Dundee have managed to repeat the same mistkes twice - they cant even learn from their own experiences. More likely than not, all that will happen is that other clubs will say 'I see Partick Thistle have gone part-time' and just sit back and see how we get on. If it's deamed a success after two or three seasons, then maybe a few more will follow, but not before. More will go into admin trying to remain on their current paths, rather than follow anyone elses lead.

Edited December 12, 2010 by MerryHell

[beep0608]

I agree - if it's a choice between part-time or nothing, then needs must.

 

However, I dont see that us going part time would influence others to follow suit immediately. The notion that lots of clubs are looking for someone to take the lead is IMO nonsense. When clubs have been going to the wall like Third Lanark, Clydebank, Airdrie, Gretna for years, it still hasn't influenced other clubs to try and work more within their means - it's always been the bank or HMRC that have said 'enough is enough'. Hell, even Dundee have managed to repeat the same mistkes twice - they cant even learn from their own experiences. More likely than not, all that will happen is that other clubs will say 'I see Partick Thistle have gone part-time' and just sit back and see how we get on. If it's deamed a success after two or three seasons, then maybe a few more will follow, but not before. More will go into admin trying to remain on their current paths, rather than follow anyone elses lead.

 

Slightly at a tangent but related, other clubs seem to be surviving on even smaller crowds then we had yesterday. Aside from the fact that we are based in Glasgow, how do they do it?

 

I am worried, but worryingly there's a part of me that is becoming resigned to whatever comes of us. This league reconstruction is not coming at a good time for us, in fact it's terrible. I really hoped that a bigger top division was coming. This plan is so wrong. All that matters is 4 games against the Old and Infirm. F*** them all.

Edited December 12, 2010 by beep0608

[GrantB]

I don't ever want to see a part time Thistle. To me, that would be admitting that the best we can ever aspire to is to be Stirling Albion. No part time team will ever make it to the SPL.

 

Hwever, if it came down to it, I'd rather have a part time Thistle than no Thistle at all.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

When clubs have been going to the wall like Third Lanark, Clydebank, Airdrie, Gretna for years, it still hasn't influenced other clubs to try and work more within their means - it's always been the bank or HMRC that have said 'enough is enough'.

 

The difference this time being the number of clubs standing at the edge of the precipice. Additionally, the banks and HMRC are in a less forgiving mood at the moment given the financial crisis the country is yet to fully come to grips with.

[Jaggernaut]

I don't ever want to see a part time Thistle. To me, that would be admitting that the best we can ever aspire to is to be Stirling Albion. No part time team will ever make it to the SPL.

 

Hwever, if it came down to it, I'd rather have a part time Thistle than no Thistle at all.

I'd imagine that almost 100% of Thistle supporters would agree with that. But, a part-time Thistle would definitely lead to even more supporters becoming part-time at most. I admit freely to being one of them. I go to considerable lengths to get to Firhill every other week, and of course to follow the team away as often as I can. My season ticket gets used for around half the games at most. I buy programmes, 50/50s, insane amounts of Jags-related items. But if I learned that Thistle were aiming to become another Clyde or Stirling Albion in terms of ambition and status, then what I currently give to the club would decline to a mere dribble, and at very best I might attend the occasional match at Firhill.

 

Want Thistle to be playing in crowds of well below 1,000 every week? Easy. Switch to becoming a part-time club and continue floundering around in the lower divisions without any ambition to play at the top level.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

I wonder what financial benefit part time football would bring? We're not exactly paying big bucks at the moment. If for instance we became big fish in a small pond (a regular top team in the the third tier of Scottish football) our crowds may not be too bad.

The other side of the coin would be when we get promoted to the second tier and our play and expectations are on par with this year's underachieving performances. I can't really see decent income at the gates. So could it not be a case of shedding £x in the wage bill but losing circa £x at the gate?

 

A back of a fag packet calculation works out at about £80K* off annual turnover for every 300 lost paying fans.

 

*net of VAT and allowing for about 20 home games and concessions)

[GrantB]

I'd imagine that almost 100% of Thistle supporters would agree with that. But, a part-time Thistle would definitely lead to even more supporters becoming part-time at most. I admit freely to being one of them. I go to considerable lengths to get to Firhill every other week, and of course to follow the team away as often as I can. My season ticket gets used for around half the games at most. I buy programmes, 50/50s, insane amounts of Jags-related items. But if I learned that Thistle were aiming to become another Clyde or Stirling Albion in terms of ambition and status, then what I currently give to the club would decline to a mere dribble, and at very best I might attend the occasional match at Firhill.

 

Want Thistle to be playing in crowds of well below 1,000 every week? Easy. Switch to becoming a part-time club and continue floundering around in the lower divisions without any ambition to play at the top level.

 

Sums it up perfectly.

[Chicofan]

The answer in the main has to be no! remember the last time we tried??? and that was was just a mixture of Full time and part time....I give you the Bryce Era.....that nearly killed the club make no doubt about it...only a Paul McDonald penalty against Forfar saved us with the Messiah back at the helm.

 

I may be wrong but I am sure during this Era we had ur lowest home attendance ever??? under 1000 midweek again v forfar...someone can correct me if I am wrong!

 

Obviously i would still go and support us as part time...and it may be that we have no alternative....i can't help but feel bitter towards the people who have run the club into the ground since our last departure from the SPL....I believe this has had a massive effect on attendance!

 

Only wish i had the answers and the winning euromillions ticket!

[uberteeb]

The vast majority of players in our squad and in this division are not wanted by full time clubs. If we go part time we keep the same players but they need to get get a job on the side, no big deal.

 

I wouldn't see it as too much of a problem.

 

The only potential problem being that if other teams of similar size don't follow suit we would be less likely to get into the SPL.

[lady-isobel-barnett]

The vast majority of players in our squad and in this division are not wanted by full time clubs. If we go part time we keep the same players but they need to get get a job on the side, no big deal.

 

I wouldn't see it as too much of a problem.

 

The only potential problem being that if other teams of similar size don't follow suit we would be less likely to get into the SPL.

Do you know something about the current employment situation that I don't, uber?