Drug Liberalisation

[Grant Tierney's tackle]

Are you for or against changing drug prohibition laws in the UK?

 

I can't see any major changes in my lifetime, but it got me thinking after reading a Christopher Hitchens interview.

 

Understandably it crosses some boundaries with people but I'm genuinely interested to hear your opinion.

 

Cheers.

 

*Edited because spelling is atrocious.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Grant Tierney's tackle

[crazy davie]

As far as I can see, de-criminalisation of drug use is an absolute no-brainer.

[hamiltonjag]

Two of the biggest killers are legal drugs: nicotine and alcohol. If either were discovered today they'd probably be made illegal.

 

Cannabis is probably the most widely used illegal substance, yet has apparently killed no-one. The jury is still out on the assertion that it can cause mental health problems after prolonged and sustained use.

Others like heroin and cocaine are highly addictive and can kill, so the physical health problems are clear. However the social problem associated with these is even more pronounced as users need to turn to crime - theft, mugging, prostitution to feed their addiction.

 

Outlawing drugs (prohibition)? Huge question. One the one hand illegality may be seen as a deterrent. On the other hand continuing to criminalise the use of some drugs might make them seem more appealing - particularly to young people.

 

In short I really don't know where I stand on the issue, other than to say that I'd probably come down on the side of legalising, or reclassifying, or legitimising cannabis. I'd likely keep the likes of heroin and cocaine illegal but pump some more resources into work with addicts as the social return on any investment in this field would same more money in the longer term.

[sigesige00]

I am for the total abolition of the laws of drugs except nicotine.

Alcohol is a very dangerous drug, however, it is good for health if properly used.

Other drugs, such as marijuana, LSD, etc, must be legalised for recreational and medical usage. LSD is very effective mental medicine.

However, nicotine does not have absolutely no good side. Nicotine increases the cost of medical care; and causes many fires. Nicotine should be illegalised.

[Blackpool Jags]

It really is one of those questions where, I think, there'd be mayhem if you legalised/decriminalised drugs, yet there is widespread mayhem in the current situation anyway.

 

I think you'd firstly need to identify which section of society's interests you mainly intended to protect or promote. So, from the angle of the drug users themselves, I'm just about old enough to remember when heroin addicts got heroin prescribed on the NHS. I'm pretty sure that it resulted in lower levels of crime committed to feed habits because of this. That in turn has a benefit to the (potential) victims of crime who are less likely to be burgled or mugged etc. The addicts themselves are provided with a safe, reliable 'product' from which they are less likely to overdose or incur serious medical problems.

 

From the point of view of the Drug Enforcement authorities, utter fortunes are spent on enforcement of the present laws, and virtually nobody in these circles these days puts up a pretence that the war on drugs is in any measurable way winnable. Only, it seems, do politicians assert that the war on drugs can or will be won. I suspect that they say this to avoid being seen as soft because nobody, they believe, wants a government with a namby pamby approach to junkies; victims of crime would baulk at the thought of more lenient treatment for those who have wreaked mayhem upon law abiding citizens.

 

There are several forms of drug abuse other than heroin, of course, but I think the debate, in essence, is about heroin and (crack) cocaine abuse: addictions which compel the addicted to inflict misery on the non-drug abusing community.

 

The answer - if there is one - must, for all practical purposes be one which addresses the problems of both sections of the divide, and does not focus, dogmatically, on the notion that by controlling supply you naturally reduce use and therefore crime. I also think that professionals within the Criminal Justice system would be more inclined towards this view than the continuation of the status quo. Maybe we should pay more attention to what they have to say.

[Chicofan]

Could debate this forever and a day.

 

But i will take Cocaine as an example.

 

There are hundreds of people dying every day because its illegal.

 

Watched many documentaries about this, Columbia, the farmers make a pittance from it..grow it or be killed..pure and simple.

 

Mexico...trafficers dealers dying by the hundred everday fighting each other for control.

 

The thing i do believe though if drugs were legalised...within months you would have cheaper illegal alternatives or maybe not..if everything was good quality and a reasonable price you would have no real need to go to an illegal dealer.

 

Could probaly write more here but need to go!!!

 

The real killers are Junk Food, Alcohol and Tobacco.....and thats a fact.

[jaggybunnet]

yeah without doubt having cigarettes and alcohol sold legally has stopped any illegal trafficking........NOT

 

it is massive as all they do is make it cheaper and to do that they make them (cigarettes and alcohol) with all sort of rubbish in them that can kill you even faster.

 

we should be making it harder to get drugs, giving out longer sentences and taking more of the money they steal, con from people. we need to be tougher in jails with a no search no visit policy as it can be easier to get drugs in prison than on the streets at times

 

as some one who has never taken drugs but has seen first hand (family and friends ) what happens when people take them I cant see why people are stupid enough to take them.

 

I think there would also a group who would never have tried drugs that would if they were made legal

[Woodstock Jag]

Decriminalise. Portugal did and consumption and health consequentials fell.

 

Get the illegal gangs out of the market and improve the quality control. In a stroke you'd reduce a lot of the organised crime around it and reduce the crime committed by end users to obtain it.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Woodstock Jag

[jaggybunnet]

Decriminalise. Portugal did and consumption and health consequentials fell.

 

Get the illegal gangs out of the market and improve the quality control. In a stroke you'd reduce a lot of the organised crime around it and reduce the crime committed by end users to obtain it.

 

 

Sorry but thats a dream world, trafficiking in cigarettes and alcohol has risen year on year as prices have also risen this will happen to drugs as well.

[Blackpool Jags]

Decriminalise. Portugal did and consumption and health consequentials fell.

 

Get the illegal gangs out of the market and improve the quality control. In a stroke you'd reduce a lot of the organised crime around it and reduce the crime committed by end users to obtain it.

 

BJ and WJ in agreement sensation!

 

 

Sorry but thats a dream world, trafficiking in cigarettes and alcohol has risen year on year as prices have also risen this will happen to drugs as well.

 

Hello Mr JB, may I be as naive as to suggest that the reason behind the booming domestic market in fags and, to a lesser extent, booze, is the level of duty put on them by British governments. Example: Embassy Regal are approx £6.50+ for a packet in the shops here, but wee Boaby gets them for about £2 a packet when he's in Tenerife, so he smuggles a wodge back in his suitcase and flogs them at around £40 a sleeve to guys at home. A no-brainer as they say.

[Woodstock Jag]

BJ and WJ in agreement sensation!

 

Never again

 

Hello Mr JB, may I be as naive as to suggest that the reason behind the booming domestic market in fags and, to a lesser extent, booze, is the level of duty put on them by British governments. Example: Embassy Regal are approx £6.50+ for a packet in the shops here, but wee Boaby gets them for about £2 a packet when he's in Tenerife, so he smuggles a wodge back in his suitcase and flogs them at around £40 a sleeve to guys at home. A no-brainer as they say.

 

is this BJ advocating that the government stop punitively and illiberally taxing lifestyle choices? We'll make an omni-liberal of you yet.

[Blackpool Jags]

Never again

 

 

 

is this BJ advocating that the government stop punitively and illiberally taxing lifestyle choices? We'll make an omni-liberal of you yet.

 

Ha ha. Make hay and all that. Actually, I wasn't really being judgmental despite the way it probably read. Just stating the fact that the relatively high price of fags generally, compared with those of many holiday destinations, inevitably means that there's a fair wee profit to made from taking a punt and stuffing your case with snout from, say, Tenerife or wherever. And that, I believe, is why JB's analogy to the illicit drug market is nonsense.

 

Bona fide and black markets, alike, are subject to the economic laws of supply and demand, and that is why I believe your example of Portugal was a valid one.

[Vladimir Putin]

You can buy a packet of cigarettes in Russia for 30p - not good ones, I wouldn't have thought, but there they are. I'm thinking about setting up an illegal import/export business to the UK.

[Jaggernaut]

I am for the total abolition of the laws of drugs except nicotine.

Alcohol is a very dangerous drug, however, it is good for health if properly used.

Other drugs, such as marijuana, LSD, etc, must be legalised for recreational and medical usage. LSD is very effective mental medicine.

However, nicotine does not have absolutely no good side. Nicotine increases the cost of medical care; and causes many fires. Nicotine should be illegalised.

Nicotine in modest doses is actually a perfect drug with only positive benefits. The problem (and it's a huge one) is that the only realistic vehicle for it - tobacco - is a killer.

[jaggybunnet]

Ha ha. Make hay and all that. Actually, I wasn't really being judgmental despite the way it probably read. Just stating the fact that the relatively high price of fags generally, compared with those of many holiday destinations, inevitably means that there's a fair wee profit to made from taking a punt and stuffing your case with snout from, say, Tenerife or wherever. And that, I believe, is why JB's analogy to the illicit drug market is nonsense.

 

Bona fide and black markets, alike, are subject to the economic laws of supply and demand, and that is why I believe your example of Portugal was a valid one.

 

My point (probably badly made) was that making drugs legal would not stop dealers, in fact I think it would do the opposite

 

i wasnt talking about some one taking back an extra 4000 fags from holidays, this is what i mean.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/6110778/Revealed-2bn-cost-to-UK-from-cigarette-smuggling.html

[Woodstock Jag]

Ha ha. Make hay and all that. Actually, I wasn't really being judgmental despite the way it probably read. Just stating the fact that the relatively high price of fags generally, compared with those of many holiday destinations, inevitably means that there's a fair wee profit to made from taking a punt and stuffing your case with snout from, say, Tenerife or wherever. And that, I believe, is why JB's analogy to the illicit drug market is nonsense.

 

Bona fide and black markets, alike, are subject to the economic laws of supply and demand, and that is why I believe your example of Portugal was a valid one.

 

In fairness, there was a BBC Panorama style programme a wee while back which showed that a lot of actually counterfeit cigarettes were being prepared on the black market with higher levels of lead (up to 20 times that of conventional ciggies) and being sold at the Barras. The price being pushed up by taxes is a huge push factor when cigarettes, which people have no guarantee of quality control over, are being sold at a fraction of the price.

 

It's interesting to see that it's not the same with alcohol, but that's because licensing is more rigorously enforced and harder to avoid viz the black market.

[jaggybunnet]

 

It's interesting to see that it's not the same with alcohol, but that's because licensing is more rigorously enforced and harder to avoid viz the black market.

 

 

i would disagree there are some very dangerous counterfeit drinks (vodkas a big one) that cause a lot of damage.

 

this would be the same with drugs with them putting more crap in them to make them cheaper.

 

as i said before anyone who takes drugs by choice (not proper medical reasons)is stupid and deserves everything they get

[i@n]

 

as i said before anyone who takes drugs by choice (not proper medical reasons)is stupid and deserves everything they get

 

I got myself a lovely wife, a beautiful son and another kid on the way but it's a long story. JUST DO IT!

[Grant Tierney's tackle]

Thanks guys. Interesting response from what I guessed to be a very mixed demographic.

 

The most liberal of us all being shaken up by Right wing dutchies, with some apparent consequences.

 

The new right-wing government that came to power in October 2010 is currently cracking down hard on ‘coffee shops’ and says it wants them to become members-only clubs with a pass system for local Dutch people in order to stop drugs tourism. The government wants to introduce the cannabis passes nationwide and plans to fast track the system in the south of the country following a recent string of drug-related violence.

 

Coffee shops have become a popular tourist attraction, particularly in Amsterdam and border towns such as Maastricht. In December 2010, the European Court of Justice ruled that the Maastricht city council is not breaking European law by attempting to stop non-residents buying soft drugs in the city's cannabis cafes. The court ruled that restricting sales is 'justified by the objective of combating drug tourism' and reducing public nuisance. The aim of the restriction is to maintain public order and protect public health.

 

However, the city councils of Eindhoven, Den Bosch and Maastricht have already voted against the plan to introduce cannabis passes and the four big cities of Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam and Utrecht have also pledged to campaign against it. Many experts say the government's plans to introduce passes for coffee shops to keep out tourists will encourage illegal street dealing again.

 

The "No brainer" touched on in a Guardian article

 

Politicians say they fear drug use would rise if prohibition is lifted. Evidence from abroad shows they are wrong. Look at Scandinavia, where the tough Swedes and more liberal Norwegians have similar addiction rates. Or Switzerland, where heroin demand and crime fell sharply following new policies based on public health rather than legality. Or Portugal, where heroin use fell by half after decriminalisation.

 

Putting the dealers and cartels out of business would be ideal, but surely the common goal here is harm minimisation?

 

I'd like to see this Global Commission on Drug Policy taken seriously but alas there is some way to go.

 

Perhaps if more of these "stupid" people who have taken drugs through choice were to get involved

[Chicofan]

i would disagree there are some very dangerous counterfeit drinks (vodkas a big one) that cause a lot of damage.

 

this would be the same with drugs with them putting more crap in them to make them cheaper.

 

as i said before anyone who takes drugs by choice (not proper medical reasons)is stupid and deserves everything they get

 

Is your opinion then the same for alcoholics,the morbidly obese and tobacco/nicotine addicts?

[jaggybunnet]

Is your opinion then the same for alcoholics,the morbidly obese and tobacco/nicotine addicts?

 

 

pretty much, its a choice, with choice come responsibilities

[B.C.G. JAG]

pretty much, its a choice, with choice come responsibilities

And what are those choices?

Do you think anyone chooses to be obese or become an addict? Not everyone who eats a Big Mac or smokes a spliff will develop problems, but some will. When we're talking about choices, we also have look at the the reasons why someone would develop problems - depression? mental health issues? abuse? As a society, we also have responsibility to offer help and rehabilitation rather than simply condemning. If a young teenager is being abused at home, the choice for them might be to stay and suffer further abuse or run away, end up homeless and end up in a spiral that might well ultimately lead to drugs and crime. Should we condemn them? What about the obese person whose weight problems stem from depression, should they also be condemned and refused treatment because it's all their own fault?

[jaggybunnet]

And what are those choices?

Do you think anyone chooses to be obese or become an addict? Not everyone who eats a Big Mac or smokes a spliff will develop problems, but some will. When we're talking about choices, we also have look at the the reasons why someone would develop problems - depression? mental health issues? abuse? As a society, we also have responsibility to offer help and rehabilitation rather than simply condemning. If a young teenager is being abused at home, the choice for them might be to stay and suffer further abuse or run away, end up homeless and end up in a spiral that might well ultimately lead to drugs and crime. Should we condemn them? What about the obese person whose weight problems stem from depression, should they also be condemned and refused treatment because it's all their own fault?

 

yes it is choice, might not be nice one but its still a choice.

 

why shouldn't we condemn them, two wrong don't make a right and doesn't exempt them from there responsibilities.

 

there are plenty that go through all the things you have highlighted and don't take drugs and the likes, there are also plenty who come from good back ground and do it so no excuses.

Edited June 20, 2011 by jaggybunnet

[B.C.G. JAG]

yes it is choice, might not be nice one but its still a choice.

 

why shouldn't we condemn them, two wrong don't make a right and doesn't exempt them from there responsibilities.

 

there are plenty that go through all the things you have highlighted and don't take drugs and the likes, there are also plenty who come from good back ground and do it so no excuses.

Having just come back from a meeting today where I heard first hand from the staff who run a Women's Health clinic in the city, and about how screwed up these women's lives are, I think anyone who was in their shoes would be very hard pushed to not get onto drugs tbh. These women have no choices, there are no options to them. Born into poverty and abuse, they have been systematically failed by Care Services, Health Services, Education Authorities and the Law. It's way way too easy to say 'och they could just get a job'. Not in their circumstances and conditions. For many of them, drugs is the only option other than suicide. We might want to get people like them off drugs, but that process will never happen with condemnation and punishment, it has to begin with understanding and trust. Punitive measures against people who actually need help rather than our scorn does nothing to help the rest of society, it just keeps people, and their children, trapped in a spiral of ill health and abuse.

[Jaggernaut]

Having just come back from a meeting today where I heard first hand from the staff who run a Women's Health clinic in the city, and about how screwed up these women's lives are, I think anyone who was in their shoes would be very hard pushed to not get onto drugs tbh. These women have no choices, there are no options to them. Born into poverty and abuse, they have been systematically failed by Care Services, Health Services, Education Authorities and the Law. It's way way too easy to say 'och they could just get a job'. Not in their circumstances and conditions. For many of them, drugs is the only option other than suicide. We might want to get people like them off drugs, but that process will never happen with condemnation and punishment, it has to begin with understanding and trust. Punitive measures against people who actually need help rather than our scorn does nothing to help the rest of society, it just keeps people, and their children, trapped in a spiral of ill health and abuse.

It's a tough, tough problem. Got family members seriously hooked on various drugs (I guess you could even include alcohol in that), so know the kinds of problems it causes. The problem is how proportionate are the resources you want to put into helping those who need help because of their established drug habits. The numbers are so big, and the resources required so great, that fully functioning members of society could be bled totally dry just trying to pick up their pieces. Not only that, but once (some) people get addicted to this stuff, all they are interested in their next fix, and anything that can be done to make things "easier" for them too often gets seen as some kind of reward for what they're doing.

 

I'm not trying to belittle the scale of the problem, and do think that "society" (whatever that is) should be doing some more. But precisely what, especially in view of the problem which is already huge and will almost inevitably become much, much worse, isn't clear at all.