Propco/stadium Development

[McKennan]

I am not an architect or surveyor, so I could not give an expert opinion on what might be acheivable when considering a restructuring of the JHS, nor can I make sound comment on cost. However, I am confident enough to speculate that there are experts out there who could develope ideas for such a project, within the budget that would be required for the redevelopment of the bing, which would provide us with a far more desireable resolution to stadium alterations than those currently proposed.

 

What is this confidence based upon and can you please spare a little for the rest of us?

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

What is this confidence based upon and can you please spare a little for the rest of us?

 

My confidence to speculate on the matter is based upon experience and acquaintance. By posting here, I do hope to share the hope that an alternative plan for the redevelopment of Firhill is still possible.

 

Perhaps a competition could be organised with the architecture department at the Art School, for able and interested students , as a way of generating varied concepts for stadium development prior to going to the expense of employing the experts and seeking further planning permisions for as yet unfunded projects.

 

All is not lost!

 

Carry on regardless.

 

[Mr Scruff]

Unquestionably the priority of ant professional football club must be success on the field of play. But as we know all to well, that is easier said than done. Furthermore, the route to that ultimate goal is reliant on the other ways a football club makes itself a healthy, established business.

 

I am not an architect or surveyor, so I could not give an expert opinion on what might be acheivable when considering a restructuring of the JHS, nor can I make sound comment on cost. However, I am confident enough to speculate that there are experts out there who could develope ideas for such a project, within the budget that would be required for the redevelopment of the bing, which would provide us with a far more desireable resolution to stadium alterations than those currently proposed.

 

It is a huge challenge to put to Jackie and his team to provide successful, entertaining football that will fortnightly fill the JHS. I sincerely hope that they can but, even if the punters do come flooding back to Firhill on a regular basis, I think they would be better rewarded for such an acheivement by playing in a well designed, respectably considered, balanced arena which maximises use of space to provide an electric atmosphere and satisfactory conditions for all, as opposed to a dis-jointed, ill-conceived stadium created through ad hoc decision making, wishful thinking and failure to thoroughly analyse the consequences of bad design or explore alternative suggestions.

 

...

It's not a question of design possibilities. It doesn't take much to imagine a potentially fantastic sporting venue at Firhill. Its topography is unusually well suited to this function.

 

It is a question of cost. Any development would be expensive, and would not return its investment (ie we couldn't afford it without someone making a donation). The development has to provide for use for about 50 hours a year with around 40,000 total customer visits per year. That's nowehere near enough to generate revenue for any kind of development.

 

There is really little appetite in Scottish football for investing in asperationally designed facilities. What is designed almost exclusively is the cheapest option to provide the basic function (putting customers in front of a football field).

[Jaggernaut]

It's not a question of design possibilities. It doesn't take much to imagine a potentially fantastic sporting venue at Firhill. Its topography is unusually well suited to this function.

 

It is a question of cost. Any development would be expensive, and would not return its investment (ie we couldn't afford it without someone making a donation). The development has to provide for use for about 50 hours a year with around 40,000 total customer visits per year. That's nowehere near enough to generate revenue for any kind of development.

 

There is really little appetite in Scottish football for investing in asperationally designed facilities. What is designed almost exclusively is the cheapest option to provide the basic function (putting customers in front of a football field).

Here's a half-serious suggestion/question:

 

Would it be feasible for the simplest of stands to be erected by volunteers, bit by bit, bucket of concrete by bucket of concrete? It could all be done as simply as possible, with half a dozen or so volunteers turning up each time all to work on one job, whether it be levelling the ground, cementing bricks together etc, to minimize any H&S risks.

 

I'd reckon that a decent small army of volunteers could be mustered for that.

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

It's not a question of design possibilities. It doesn't take much to imagine a potentially fantastic sporting venue at Firhill. Its topography is unusually well suited to this function.

 

It is a question of cost. Any development would be expensive, and would not return its investment (ie we couldn't afford it without someone making a donation). The development has to provide for use for about 50 hours a year with around 40,000 total customer visits per year. That's nowehere near enough to generate revenue for any kind of development.

 

There is really little appetite in Scottish football for investing in asperationally designed facilities. What is designed almost exclusively is the cheapest option to provide the basic function (putting customers in front of a football field).

 

Good design is not only about creating something of beauty. I'm sure we all have pictures in our minds of a perfect, full Firhill, buzzing with atmosphere as 10-20,000 jags fans gaze onto a perfect pitch from all sides, passionately cheering Thistle on to victory. However, I agree, we are quite some way from that ever being the reality and a good design should consider this and deliver a credible and attractive solution which provides us a venue catering satisfactorily to our current customers, retains potential for growth and additional income from non-sporting amenities either from sales or letting.

 

Good design should, and I beleive could, consider what is likely to pass planning legislations without comprimising style or function in a financially profitable way.

 

Realistically the financing of any construtional developements at Firhill is dependant on outside investment. Donations are wishful thinking. This is why we see a for sale sign on the bing, with the hope of finding a purchaser willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contract. I speak with no great authority on the matter, but might it not be the case that the current proposals and planning premissions granted for the bing's redevelopment are not so attractive to potential investors that they might be unlikely to engage in such a project regardless of the state of the current property market?

[Mr Scruff]

Here's a half-serious suggestion/question:

 

Would it be feasible for the simplest of stands to be erected by volunteers, bit by bit, bucket of concrete by bucket of concrete? It could all be done as simply as possible, with half a dozen or so volunteers turning up each time all to work on one job, whether it be levelling the ground, cementing bricks together etc, to minimize any H&S risks.

 

I'd reckon that a decent small army of volunteers could be mustered for that.

A construction of this scale would be governed by quite onerous H & S, and quality controls which would mean that voluntary labour would have little impact on the overall economic viability.

 

I do wonder about volunteers for maintenance, though, but that's a different matter entirely.

 

The thing that would make the biggest impact would be the introduction of other functions to get around that 50 hours/ year problem. In some ways that's what Propco is trying to do.

 

An idea I had some time ago was to raise the pitch by 3m or so and use the space underneath for other functions. Would naturally reduce the size of the JH, but also push the pitch away from the road. This would give much more space around the pitch to parcel off bits of the ground but still create an appropriately sized arena. A 4G pitch would let this be used throughout the week/ year for multiple sports. It's the only way I can see to get any real return on investment remaining on the current site, but we're miles from the economic environment to let that happen...

[Mr Scruff]

Good design is not only about creating something of beauty. I'm sure we all have pictures in our minds of a perfect, full Firhill, buzzing with atmosphere as 10-20,000 jags fans gaze onto a perfect pitch from all sides, passionately cheering Thistle on to victory. However, I agree, we are quite some way from that ever being the reality and a good design should consider this and deliver a credible and attractive solution which provides us a venue catering satisfactorily to our current customers, retains potential for growth and additional income from non-sporting amenities either from sales or letting.

 

Good design should, and I beleive could, consider what is likely to pass planning legislations without comprimising style or function in a financially profitable way.

 

Realistically the financing of any construtional developements at Firhill is dependant on outside investment. Donations are wishful thinking. This is why we see a for sale sign on the bing, with the hope of finding a purchaser willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contract. I speak with no great authority on the matter, but might it not be the case that the current proposals and planning premissions granted for the bing's redevelopment are not so attractive to potential investors that they might be unlikely to engage in such a project regardless of the state of the current property market?

I realise I wasn't clear. Functionally our stadium works with a pitch, floodlighting and the JH stand. Nothing else (aside from some ancillary accommodation that could be included in or around the JH) is required to deliver a functional cost effective solution - there it is already. Anything else requires investment, from which there is little likelihood of a return unless the scope of the function of a 'football stadium' is extended.

 

When you get into discussions of how bad the stadium looks just now you're really into the subjective. I have strong opinions on how the character and presence of a space within which a function happens can have a positive (and indeed commercial) benefit, but there's little appetite in Scottish football for taking anything like those risks

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

@ Mr. Scruff

 

It amazes me, given the perilous financial state of scottish football, that clubs have not joined together and said to the hapless footballing authorities, sorry but we cannot afford grass pitches anymore. Don't misunderstand me, I'm a tradionalist as far as "grass is best", but the possible finiancial benefits of artificial turf and technological advances in its qualitiy totally outweigh its drawbacks.

 

I doubt our stadium is functioning cost effectively. There are numerous complaints on here about the upkeep of facilities in the JHS, the standard of catering, poor uptake of hospitality and lack of atmosphere. I am also doutful about the consitant neglect and dismissal of the old stand.

 

The fact is we do use it. The aitken suit is used every matchday and has hosted the two meet the board/manager nights and I presume other events. It is cearly not, as is often fictitously rumoured, unsafe as supporter accomodation, as evidenced in our pre-season match against celtic. And to move the the other, ancillary yet vital, accomodation of changing rooms and office space to the JHS would incurr cost and only be neccessary in order to implement the current plan to replace them with flats.

 

I suspect also that the transfer of hospitality from it to the Allan Rough suite was costly, has fallen short of expected rise in sales, and was only done as the first phase of discarding what is still a potentially useful facility.

 

Scottish footbal is certainly struggling to acheive sponsoship or attract investment. But surely what we are discussing here is somewhat outside of football. I was heartened by the apparent, more business-like, direction the directors are hoping to take the club in. It is long overdue that the club seeks to set roots as a company providing more than just fortnightly football matches to gain income.

 

The plan is to acheive some success in the property market. I applaud this, property is one of the few assets the club has availible to exploit. I just fear that they are focused on , or even obsessed with a project that is possibly not the most beneficial, marketable, or aspirational. I don't think Firhill looks too bad. It is certainly looking unfinished and shabby though. Completion of the stadium and how the club propose to maintain and manage it is both uncertain and I hope debateable. The for sale sign on the bing suggests that it is.

 

[Jaggernaut]

 

 

An idea I had some time ago was to raise the pitch by 3m or so and use the space underneath for other functions. Would naturally reduce the size of the JH, but also push the pitch away from the road. This would give much more space around the pitch to parcel off bits of the ground but still create an appropriately sized arena. A 4G pitch would let this be used throughout the week/ year for multiple sports. It's the only way I can see to get any real return on investment remaining on the current site, but we're miles from the economic environment to let that happen...

That's an interesting idea! It would have implications certainly for the north stand, as most of it would disappear under the raised pitch, but it's certainly worthy of consideration.

 

How about mushroom farming in the space created?

[beep0608]

What's with the hostile responses to asking a question? It's a forum for Partick Thistle fans. I'm a Partick Thistle fan. It doesn't hurt anyone to ask a question in a new thread. If you can't be bothered with it, don't post. The forum is for people who are enthusiastic about the club and want to talk about it, not for people who are looking to make any discussion as concise as humanly possible so we don't have to talk about the club. That's a surefire way for people to forget the team exists and go to the cinema on a saturday afternoon instead.

 

...and pretty much why I don't check this forum so often these days. I'm still interested in Thistle but I'm generally bored with fitba, and many of the opinionated twats who follow it, obsessively. Just listen to Radio Clyde from about 6pm midweek....unintentionally hilarious, but I like to think we're a bit better than that, on average.

[McKennan]

Here's a half-serious suggestion/question:

 

Would it be feasible for the simplest of brain surgery operations to be carried out by volunteers, cut by cut? It could all be done as simply as possible, with half a dozen or so volunteers turning up each time all to work on one job, whether it be reflecting the scalp, cementing bone etc, to minimize any H&S risks.

 

I'd reckon that a decent small army of volunteers could be mustered for that.

 

There. Sorted.

[McKennan]

My confidence to speculate on the matter is based upon experience and acquaintance. By posting here, I do hope to share the hope that an alternative plan for the redevelopment of Firhill is still possible.

 

Care to elaborate?

[Jaggernaut]

There. Sorted.

It's neither brain surgery nor rocket science!

[ChewinGumMacaroonBaaaz]

Care to elaborate?

 

 

You are extracting the urine? ...Right?