Thatcher

[kni]

Forget Manpreet, we are all Margaret Thatcher! Neo-liberalism is clearly the way forward. Why oh why have I been missing this for so many years. There will always be inequality so let's just keep it that way - step over the poor, the sick, the unemployed. It's really that simple.

 

It's mainly Guardian readers and BBC journalists use the term neo-liberal. Thatcher was far from being a "neo" or (to use the proper term) classical liberal. She may have privatised industries but it was Major who deregulated most of them. Thatcher increased spending on the NHS, welfare state and education in real terms. As Education Minister she closed down lots of grammar schools too.

 

The roots of "neo-liberalism" are found in the works of the Scottish Enlightenment philosophers and economists, notably Adam Smith, David Hume and Adam Ferguson. They would have baulked at being called "Conservative". The true party of liberalism was, naturally, the Liberal Party, e.g. Parliamentarians like Gladstone, Cobden and Bright who would have dismissed Clegg and his party as Marxists.

[Meister Jag]

It's mainly Guardian readers and BBC journalists use the term neo-liberal. Thatcher was far from being a "neo" or (to use the proper term) classical liberal. She may have privatised industries but it was Major who deregulated most of them. Thatcher increased spending on the NHS, welfare state and education in real terms. As Education Minister she closed down lots of grammar schools too.

 

The roots of "neo-liberalism" are found in the works of the Scottish Enlightenment philosophers and economists, notably Adam Smith, David Hume and Adam Ferguson. They would have baulked at being called "Conservative". The true party of liberalism was, naturally, the Liberal Party, e.g. Parliamentarians like Gladstone, Cobden and Bright who would have dismissed Clegg and his party as Marxists.

 

I thought the Liberal party died when the Gang of Four took you over, the very thing they baulked about when Militant and the Trots tried to modernise Labour. look at what we got... i'm still looking and it still looks like a form of conservatism to me. The liberals basically died; but they were moribund.

 

To my mind the ideology of the unrestrained free market (neo-liberalism) re-emerged in the 1970s amid a widespread belief that the prevailing economic woes of high inflation and low growth were exclusively the result of excessive government intervention in the market. In the '80s, the Reagan and Thatcher governments gave political voice to this neo-liberal movement of anti-tax, anti-regulation, anti-government conservatives. The rest merely picked up the baton and took us into the mess that we now find ourselves in.

 

A very basic analysis as I'm watching Britain's Talent with the wife. There is no greater torture known to man... Nick Clegg the marxist? Please, you're having a larf... tell me you are... please? Don't believe what you read in the Daily Express.

[The Mighty Quinn]

She certainly made a good job of closing down Cowdenbeath; or was that it on a good day? I hope you give lectures on your world vision down the miners welfare mate, I'd be happy to run bus trips to hear you talk.

 

WTF is a commie beatnik? Love it, love it... great attempt at a wind up but not this time mate.

how am i bloody fishing? Assuming someone is fishing, because they have a different opinion to you is the height of arrogance. She didn't close down cowdenbeath at all, it's still there. Miners welfare - lazy bums wid be better gettin new skills and gettin a new job rather than still greetin about things that happened in the 80s. Edited May 5, 2013 by The Mighty Quinn

[Guy Incognito]

She certainly made a good job of closing down Cowdenbeath; or was that it on a good day? I hope you give lectures on your world vision down the miners welfare mate, I'd be happy to run bus trips to hear you talk.

 

WTF is a commie beatnik? Love it, love it... great attempt at a wind up but not this time mate.

 

It is easy to confuse the two, on account of their shared affection for facial hair and berets.

[Meister Jag]

how am i bloody fishing? Assuming someone is fishing, because they have a different opinion to you is the height of arrogance. She didn't close down cowdenbeath at all, it's still there. Miners welfare - lazy bums wid be better gettin new skills and gettin a new job rather than still greetin about things that happened in the 80s.

 

who said anything abo

how am i bloody fishing? Assuming someone is fishing, because they have a different opinion to you is the height of arrogance. She didn't close down cowdenbeath at all, it's still there. Miners welfare - lazy bums wid be better gettin new skills and gettin a new job rather than still greetin about things that happened in the 80s.

 

Fishing? Who said anything about you fishing? We all know you're trying to make a serious point. Check back and tell me if I said you were fishing. Wind up merchant maybe.

 

You and Donald Findlay must cut a swagger as you walk hand-in-hand through Cowdenbeath; maybe on the way to a Tory party meeting. Just the two of you... Sweet!

[The Mighty Quinn]

who said anything abo

 

 

Fishing? Who said anything about you fishing? We all know you're trying to make a serious point. Check back and tell me if I said you were fishing. Wind up merchant maybe.

 

You and Donald Findlay must cut a swagger as you walk hand-in-hand through Cowdenbeath; maybe on the way to a Tory party meeting. Just the two of you... Sweet!

quality not quantity, the tories wouldn't accept half you work shy beatniks, think the world owes you a living. get a job

[Meister Jag]

quality not quantity, the tories wouldn't accept half you work shy beatniks, think the world owes you a living. get a job

 

So how may of there are you in Cowdenbeath? Do you meet often and what do you talk about now she's gone down below... (I'm trying to get this back on thread! ) Also, how come all the tories on this forum all stay over in the east coast? All two of you...

[MISSING WORDS]

MJ - The Mighty Quim is on a fishing trip.............and you're biting. Tell him to put his rod away..........oooer madam.

[The Mighty Quinn]

It is easy to confuse the two, on account of their shared affection for facial hair and berets.

bongo drums, pretentious poetry, drug taking and a whole work shy ethic. come my fascist revolution, they're the first against the wall. then the trade unions, encourage people to be lazy and get days off ona technicality.

[The Mighty Quinn]

i ran my own construction business for years (retired now), and i kept gettin screwed by trade unions every time labour were in power. they support lethargy in a man, kept finding ways to get days off using human rights laws, but i was a fair employer. i treated them well and they got paid well. my employees took me for a mug at times. i couldn't argue because of their laws. The tories give people a kick up the arse and get them workin. i'm not trolling at all by the way. that's the way i feel.

[Meister Jag]

MJ - The Mighty Quim is on a fishing trip.............and you're biting. Tell him to put his rod away..........oooer madam.

 

I know, but I'm as bored as him and trying to ignite something. Good typo' by the way. He'll be invading down your way next! (P.S. Picking tickets up at box office on Friday. Panic over!! Should still make Pivo ok.)

[The Devil's Point]

i ran my own business for years

 

Easy to have these views when you're the boss. Most people are fed up with being treated like crap by employers.

 

Well done if you treated and paid your staff well. Unfortunately most employers don't, hence many people who are actually in work having to claim tax credits and relatively few people being able to save for pensions.

 

I note you have retired. I hope you didn't do that before at least your late 60's as that would be workshy indeed. Most people under 50 today will never retire and there may well be little or no state pension by the time they do.

[Meister Jag]

i ran my own construction business for years (retired now), and i kept gettin screwed by trade unions every time labour were in power. they support lethargy in a man, kept finding ways to get days off using human rights laws, but i was a fair employer. i treated them well and they got paid well. my employees took me for a mug at times. i couldn't argue because of their laws. The tories give people a kick up the arse and get them workin. i'm not trolling at all by the way. that's the way i feel.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. So you're really a fat cat boss-type dude. Pop down to Glenagles for a game of ping pong with Jackie Stewart, spot of lunch then back to the golf club for pink gins. I know your type, you're an enemy of the working class. It's all exploit and blame the workers. The very people who built your empire and paid for your sunbed with their blood sweat and tears.

 

Think I'll stick to my vegan diet, painting and writing poetry. I mean, why would I want to get my beard dirty?

[Meister Jag]

Easy to have these views when you're the boss. Most people are fed up with being treated like crap by employers.

 

Well done if you treated and paid your staff well. Unfortunately most employers don't, hence many people who are actually in work having to claim tax credits and relatively few people being able to save for pensions.

 

I note you have retired. I hope you didn't do that before at least your late 60's as that would be workshy indeed. Most people under 50 today will never retire and there may well be little or no state pension by the time they do.

 

I'm shocked! If he's built up a fortune and can chuck it early then why not? Why should we have to work until we drop? (I know, I'm now defending TMQ, my old mate Missing Words may have a point!)

 

The Mighty Q might have taken up basket-weaving or may groom competition hamsters or something. He may even read Francis Gay in the Sunday Post. Fact is, we don't know; but because he's retired doesn't mean he's finished. Retirement for some is not the end it's the beginning...

 

There's always a political education to be had and he could join the party of struggle and grow a beard etc. Model himself on Lenin or Trotsky or just stop shaving and go for the full Karl M look. As the great man said: What is to be done? Well lots actually.

[The Devil's Point]

Parliamentarians like Gladstone, Cobden and Bright who would have dismissed Clegg and his party as Marxists.

 

Why would they think the Lib Dems are Marxists?.

 

The Liberal Party still exists in amongst the "broad church" of the Lib Dems although as always there are varying shades of Liberalism. The modern party is vaguely split between "social liberals", and "orange book" liberals who follow a more free market (conservative? ) philosophy. The Orange bookers play well in the south and are vital to keeping the party in coalition government. The Scottish Party, at least in terms of its membership, are far more inclined to Social Liberalism.

 

There has always been great debate about what Liberalism means, and the Liberalism of Gladstone would be difficult to compare with the Liberalism of Clegg or David Steel. Liberalism is about equality, fairness, the rule of law, and the protection of the citizen from the state among other things. It will look and act differently over time just like any other political movement.

Edited May 8, 2013 by The Devil's Point

[The Devil's Point]

I'm shocked! If he's built up a fortune and can chuck it early then why not? Why should we have to work until we drop?

 

Was some sarcasm going on there

 

I do get fed up though with listening to retired people in their sixties (or younger) talking about people being "workshy" though. Er, excuse me, but the retirement age for most of us is now 67 and rising and we will never realistically be able to retire (not with enough health to enjoy it anyway).

 

I don't think people can be expected to put much effort into their work without retirement to look forward to. Completely de-motivating.

 

Given that we have massive youth unemployment it is completely barmy to keep raising the retirement age.

[Meister Jag]

Was some sarcasm going on there

 

I do get fed up though with listening to retired people in their sixties (or younger) talking about people being "workshy" though. Er, excuse me, but the retirement age for most of us is now 67 and rising and we will never realistically be able to retire (not with enough health to enjoy it anyway).

 

I don't think people can be expected to put much effort into their work without retirement to look forward to. Completely de-motivating.

 

Given that we have massive youth unemployment it is completely barmy to keep raising the retirement age.

 

Sorry if I picked you up wrong . Too busy planning an invasion of Cowdenbeath; round up the trouble makers and send them off to the Gulag. No poetry and scones for them. Just forced reading of Das Kapital until you can recite it backwards. Then and only then will comrades be allowed to watch socialist porn (specially chosen by a comrade known to this forum but currently serving a suspension of sorts).

 

It wasn't that long ago that we all aspired to being able to retire at 50 and many adverts used to show greying 50-somethings planning trips to New York with their grand-weans. But not now - greying 70-year olds are still hobbling off to work unable to afford holidays due to pension funds being destroyed by crooked bankers and their mates in the City. Capitalism really works! (That's sarcasm!!)

[The Devil's Point]

adverts used to show greying 50-somethings

 

I'm shocked! I'm already greying and I'm only 41. Older people today just don't know how easy they had it.

 

Good luck with your invasion of Cowdenbeath. I was in deepest Red Fife (Kelty) the other day climbing Benarty Hill and Drumglow Hill and the locals mainly looked ok to me. Loch Glow was lined with bins full of empty lager tins from the fishermen which maybe hints at some underlying social problems. Not sure they are ready for revolution though. Anyway, don't know what I'm on about either really

 

Agree that capitalism is looking like even more of a disaster zone in times of globalisation. You only need to climb the aforementioned hills to see the wreckage of our landscape by windfarms to see an example of rampant greed. Of all the Scottish Government's policies, allowing the ruining of Scotland's environment through the profliferation of windfarms is one of the worst of all (and I know the Lib Dems have supported it). I've climbed all over Scotland for over twenty years and my heart sinks when I see the damage that has been done.

 

We used to be able to reign in the worst excesses of capatilism, but with globalisation it seems business is now far more important than democratically elected government. We are in the end game for the planet.

 

Stream of conciousness post

[kni]

Why would they think the Lib Dems are Marxists?.

 

The Liberal Party still exists in amongst the "broad church" of the Lib Dems although as always there are varying shades of Liberalism. The modern party is vaguely split between "social liberals", and "orange book" liberals who follow a more free market (conservative? ) philosophy. The Orange bookers play well in the south and are vital to keeping the party in coalition government. The Scottish Party, at least in terms of its membership, are far more inclined to Social Liberalism.

 

There has always been great debate about what Liberalism means, and the Liberalism of Gladstone would be difficult to compare with the Liberalism of Clegg or David Steel. Liberalism is about equality, fairness, the rule of law, and the protection of the citizen from the state among other things. It will look and act differently over time just like any other political movement.

 

Cobden and Bright would regard the Lib Dems as radical socialists. Btw, what do you mean by "social liberals"? You can't have social liberalism without economic liberalism. I knew Charlie Kennedy at university and he was very conservative. He fought to keep women out of the Men's Union and campaigned to keep Glasgow out of the National Union of Students.

 

The "Orange Bookers" are very much in the minority in the Lib Dems. The Liberal Democrats are, in general, statists and their policies would substantially increase the power the state over the individual. Their colleagues in the European Parliament, e.g. Germany's Free Democrats, regard them as leftists.

 

Liberalism, historically, stands for individualism, laissez faire economics and free trade. The "fathers" of liberalism were John Locke and John Stuart Mill ("On Liberty"). In the 20th Century, the leading liberals were Karl Popper and Friedrich Hayek. Margaret Thatcher abandoned traditional conservatism and embraced the classical liberalism of Hayek and Friedman.

[Blackpool Jags]

Probably showing a profound lack of understanding of these matters, Kni, but weren't theoreticians like Popper and (particularly) Hayek 'libertarians' rather than Liberals?

[twinny]

Agree that capitalism is looking like even more of a disaster zone in times of globalisation. You only need to climb the aforementioned hills to see the wreckage of our landscape by windfarms to see an example of rampant greed. Of all the Scottish Government's policies, allowing the ruining of Scotland's environment through the profliferation of windfarms is one of the worst of all (and I know the Lib Dems have supported it). I've climbed all over Scotland for over twenty years and my heart sinks when I see the damage that has been done.

 

I agree with the first sentence, however I think that wind farms are a sight of beauty and a great feat of engineering.

[kni]

Probably showing a profound lack of understanding of these matters, Kni, but weren't theoreticians like Popper and (particularly) Hayek 'libertarians' rather than Liberals?

 

Hayek described himself as an Old Whig and his approach on many issues was Burkean. Popper considered himself to be a liberal.

 

Unlike his mentor, Ludwig Von Mises, Hayek rejected the libertarian label and was not an advocate of laissez faire. Von Mises did describe himself as a liberal and called one of his key works "Liberalism".

Edited May 9, 2013 by kni

[jaggybunnet]

I agree with the first sentence, however I think that wind farms are a sight of beauty and a great feat of engineering.

 

 

was that sarcasm?

[Guy Incognito]

I agree with the first sentence, however I think that wind farms are a sight of beauty and a great feat of engineering.

 

I find the occasional wind turbine a pleasantly serene sight too. Scotland is a hilly, windy country and much of it is practically empty, so we'd be daft not to exploit our potential for wind power. And let's be honest, a few wind turbines are nowhere near as unsightly as some thumping big power station belching out smoke.

[jaggybunnet]

I find the occasional wind turbine a pleasantly serene sight too. Scotland is a hilly, windy country and much of it is practically empty, so we'd be daft not to exploit our potential for wind power. And let's be honest, a few wind turbines are nowhere near as unsightly as some thumping big power station belching out smoke.

 

but actually give us the power we need unlike wind farms which have to many variables