Europe, Do You Really Care?

[The Devil's Point]

Trouble near the Grassmarket in Edinburgh tonight. Apparently Farrage had to flee to the nearest pub to escape a demonstration.

 

On the BBC News website.

Edited May 16, 2013 by The Devil's Point

[jaggybunnet]

Trouble near the Grassmarket in Edinburgh tonight. Apparently Farrage had to flee to the nearest pub to escape a demonstration.

 

On the BBC News website.

 

embarrassed to be Scottish after that nutters

[Allan Heron]

The European Parliament's own figures state that around 80 to 90% of Member States laws are imposed from Brussels.

 

Bollocks

 

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=9479

[kni]

Bollocks

 

http://www.euromove....dex.php?id=9479

 

Hardly an unbiased organisation.

 

"The European Movement.. calls for closer integration at the EU level, with more powers for the democratically elected institutions of the EU and more popular involvement in its intergovernmental decision-making structures."

 

It has campaigned relentlessly for Britain to ditch the Pound and join the Euro.

 

The actual figure is irrelevant. Only the Scottish Parliament should legislate for Scotland, not the MEPs of other countries in the European Parliament. You cannot be truly independent if you cannot control your own laws, courts, borders, currency, agriculture, fisheries and trade. The SNP is only offering separation from the rest of the UK, not true independence.

[Guy Incognito]

Anyone who has been outside of their house recently knows there is absolutely no chance that the Scottish Electorate will be voting for independence. Forget it, it's not going to happen.

 

I think the OP raises a good point about why the anti-immigration party aren't more popular in Scotland. I think there is a brutal answer, which is that the bulk of taxation is paid in the south, and the Scottish voters don't feel that pinch.

 

Perhaps we have oil wealth, but we don't seem so clever at creating anything for ourselves these days. Mr Bell created the telephone, but no-one uses landlines anymore. Things move on, and I'm still not seeing where the creativity and growth could possibly come from in a new scotland.

 

The EEC, as it was, was essentially created out of a desire to stop war again in Europe. It was supposed to be about ensuring that no one single country, or leader, could again abuse the politics of nationalism and intolerance. The European idea was important and it essentially worked. A few of my distant relatives died in the trenches, but my university classes were full of German students. I have a Mainz scarf hanging up right beside my Thistle one.

 

So to answer the question - Europe do you really care? Answer is yes, and I'd vote to stay in as well.

 

Maybe I am misinterpreting what you have written there - and if I am, I apologise in advance - but surely it is only to be expected that the bulk of taxation is paid in the south since that is where most people in the UK live (Greater London's population alone is nearly twice that of Scotland's). It has been well established, though, that Scotland, all in all, contributes more to the UK economy than it receives back via Barnett.

 

Outwith their stance on immigration everything UKIP stands most for is entirely right of centre, which is unpalatable for many voters in Scotland. And when you consider the fact that his party wants, in effect, to dissolve the Scottish parliament, it is no wonder that people were not exactly queuing up to buy Mr Farage a pint in Edinburgh the other day.

 

Personally, the fact that UKIP appear to be gaining some momentum down south, prompting a shift to the right among the mainstream UK political parties in response, worries me. Certainly, the issue of the UK's position in Europe and Cameron's proposed referendum on the matter has - perhaps intentionally, perhaps not - muddied the already pretty muddy waters of our own independence debate.

 

As far as creating things is concerned, Scotland currently has a unique industry whose exports are worth billions to the UK economy: whiskey. Granted, we don't create very much else; but for the past thirty or so years the British economy hasn't really been about creating things. Instead it has been, essentially, a big game of monopoly: people are paid to answer the telephone to people who sell frothy coffees to people who are paid to answer the telephone and so on and so forth.

 

I saw this article in the Herald a couple of weeks ago:

 

http://www.heraldsco...otland.20985084

 

This is the first time in the independence debate that someone has attempted to put some meat on the bones of the concept of Scottish independence and I for one quite liked their suggestions.

 

embarrassed to be Scottish after that nutters

 

Why does it make you embarrassed to be Scottish? At least one of the protestors was English and said as much when Farage accused them, bizarrely, of being anti-English.

[Jaggernaut]

 

I saw this article in the Herald a couple of weeks ago:

 

http://www.heraldsco...otland.20985084

 

This is the first time in the independence debate that someone has attempted to put some meat on the bones of the concept of Scottish independence and I for one quite liked their suggestions.

 

 

Why does it make you embarrassed to be Scottish? At least one of the protestors was English and said as much when Farage accused them, bizarrely, of being anti-English.

 

That article does make for interesting reading, and one that should be recommended to everybody who is thinking about voting Yes but who perhaps hasn't completely made up their mind.

[jaggybunnet]

Maybe I am misinterpreting what you have written there - and if I am, I apologise in advance - but surely it is only to be expected that the bulk of taxation is paid in the south since that is where most people in the UK live (Greater London's population alone is nearly twice that of Scotland's). It has been well established, though, that Scotland, all in all, contributes more to the UK economy than it receives back via Barnett.

 

has it, where?

 

Outwith their stance on immigration everything UKIP stands most for is entirely right of centre, which is unpalatable for many voters in Scotland. And when you consider the fact that his party wants, in effect, to dissolve the Scottish parliament, it is no wonder that people were not exactly queuing up to buy Mr Farage a pint in Edinburgh the other day.

 

Personally, the fact that UKIP appear to be gaining some momentum down south, prompting a shift to the right among the mainstream UK political parties in response, worries me. Certainly, the issue of the UK's position in Europe and Cameron's proposed referendum on the matter has - perhaps intentionally, perhaps not - muddied the already pretty muddy waters of our own independence debate.

 

As far as creating things is concerned, Scotland currently has a unique industry whose exports are worth billions to the UK economy: whiskey. Granted, we don't create very much else; but for the past thirty or so years the British economy hasn't really been about creating things. Instead it has been, essentially, a big game of monopoly: people are paid to answer the telephone to people who sell frothy coffees to people who are paid to answer the telephone and so on and so forth.

 

I saw this article in the Herald a couple of weeks ago:

 

http://www.heraldsco...otland.20985084

 

This is the first time in the independence debate that someone has attempted to put some meat on the bones of the concept of Scottish independence and I for one quite liked their suggestions.

 

 

 

Why does it make you embarrassed to be Scottish? At least one of the protestors was English and said as much when Farage accused them, bizarrely, of being anti-English.

 

most were Scottish so embarrassed, calling him scum and a racist..so why is he racist?

[Guy Incognito]

That article does make for interesting reading, and one that should be recommended to everybody who is thinking about voting Yes but who perhaps hasn't completely made up their mind.

 

It is certainly food for thought; however the real question is would any party have the guts to adopt its recommendations?

[Guy Incognito]

@Jaggy Bunnet

 

If I understand the Barnett formula correctly, it is designed to allocate funds partly on population size. Scotland's population amounts to a little over 8% of the UK's as a whole, and excluding the gas and oil revenues it would appear that we chip in with our fair share.

 

However, include factor in the gas and oil revenues - on a geographical basis at least - and we pay a wee bit more, slightly less than 10%.

 

http://www.scotland....41/00415871.pdf (Page 5)

 

Incidentally, the former chancellor Denis Healey has recently admitted that his government 'downplayed' the value of oil to stem 'the threat of nationalism':

 

“I think we did underplay the value of the oil to the country because of the threat of nationalism but that was mainly down to Thatcher. We didn’t actually see the rewards from oil in my period in office because we were investing in the infrastructure rather than getting the returns and really, Thatcher wouldn’t have been able to carry out any of her policies without that additional 5 per cent on GDP from oil. Incredible good luck she had from that.”

 

http://www.holyrood....ising-eyebrows/

 

As far as the protestors the other day are concerned, if a small-ish group of students yelling at a politican is enough to make you feel embarrassed to be Scottish it makes me wonder how proud you were in the first place.

 

Is Farage a racist? I don't know if he is by the strictest definition of the word. On the other hand, this quote has been attributed to him (fourth one down):

 

http://writequotes.c.../#ixzz2TWiDpwEI

 

If that quote is real then it is easy to see how those young people reached the conculsion that he is a racist.

 

Aside from that, I am slightly puzzled as to what he was doing in Edinburgh in the first place. Seemingly he was there on official business, as I understand there is a Holyrood by-election taking place shortly; but that is being held in Aberdeen

[ian_mac]

There are UKIP guys who have stood for office recently that have in the past been holocaust deniers. That was one of the main reasons for the protest last week.

 

It would seem to me that the BNP, like the NF before it, has become too much of a toxic brand even for those who support their vile policies.

 

I am concerned that UKIP is being seen as an acceptable party which these people can use to gain power.

 

I suspect that's what the protestors last week were concerned about as well.

[kni]

There are UKIP guys who have stood for office recently that have in the past been holocaust deniers. That was one of the main reasons for the protest last week.

 

It would seem to me that the BNP, like the NF before it, has become too much of a toxic brand even for those who support their vile policies.

 

I am concerned that UKIP is being seen as an acceptable party which these people can use to gain power.

 

I suspect that's what the protestors last week were concerned about as well.

 

That is news to me and a very serious allegation. Can you provide names, details, dates or links to stories?

Edited May 20, 2013 by kni

[twinny]

That is news to me and a very serious allegation. Can you provide names, details, dates or links to stories?

 

Google 'UKIP holocaust denial' and read the first hit. That was this year, but it goes back a good few years, see google's second hit.

[kni]

^ What about Respect? More here too. Then, of course, there is Ken Livingstone and his dodgy dealings.

[ian_mac]

^ What about Respect? More here too. Then, of course, there is Ken Livingstone and his dodgy dealings.

What have any of those people got to do with UKIP?

 

You asked for evidence of the holocaust denials and you were given it. How about dealing with that before bringing up random figures from the left wing?

Edited May 20, 2013 by ian_mac

[jaggybunnet]

What have any of those people got to do with UKIP?

 

You asked for evidence of the holocaust denials and you were given it. How about dealing with that before bringing up random figures from the left wing?

 

think the point is maybe they do have some nutters but so do the rest , so don't tar them all with the same brush.

 

and UKIP are nothing like BNP

 

 

she also denied it

Edited May 20, 2013 by jaggybunnet

[twinny]

think the point is maybe they do have some nutters but so do the rest , so don't tar them all with the same brush.

 

and UKIP are nothing like BNP

 

 

she also denied it

 

And none of us that are arguing against UKIP are arguing for Respect, are they?

 

Reminiscent of old filth fans saying it wisnae us, they're daein it tae.

[jaggybunnet]

And none of us that are arguing against UKIP are arguing for Respect, are they?

 

Reminiscent of old filth fans saying it wisnae us, they're daein it tae.

 

ehh, no arguing that no matter how hard you try some nutters will get through no matter which party it is