The Board

[The Terminator]

In fairness I think when fans chant sack the board they're meaning getting rid of the status quo. We all, or well most of us, know there's one or two board members we'd rather not see the back of.

Precisely. We all know a board cannot be sacked. Unfortunately it seems some are taking the phrase too literally and labelling those who chant it as irrational. It is clear that as we are going, the club will die. That's the fact. in a few years, going as we are, there won't be a board to grumble about, no manager to question and no team to support. We are all desperate to avoid that but we won't unless something is done.

[andyconnor]

Precisely. We all know a board cannot be sacked. Unfortunately it seems some are taking the phrase too literally and labelling those who chant it as irrational. It is clear that as we are going, the club will die. That's the fact. in a few years, going as we are, there won't be a board to grumble about, no manager to question and no team to support. We are all desperate to avoid that but we won't unless something is done.

 

are things really as bad as that? if so, then yes something needs done, but how? i think it may take an effort similar to that shown for save the jags, but many a jag has drifted away since then i fear.

[The Terminator]

are things really as bad as that? if so, then yes something needs done, but how? i think it may take an effort similar to that shown for save the jags, but many a jag has drifted away since then i fear.

And the ones who are left are incredibly divided. We have also lost the cuddly toy image. As it is, we are not needed as such in scottish football anymore. We are nothing more than a declining and disliked club. In turn, that means that the general community won't be so supportive either. It doesn't have to be a STJ just yet, but soon it will have to be unless the captain and his crew leave the wheel for someone else to change the course. (Cliche, sorry)

[Steven H]

are things really as bad as that? if so, then yes something needs done, but how? i think it may take an effort similar to that shown for save the jags, but many a jag has drifted away since then i fear.

 

It'll take a lot more effort than that, but before ANY effort can be put in there must be a plan. No-one seems to be coming up with one of those.

 

Questions to ask yourself (if you are in agreement with regards to protest type action):

 

1) What do you want and why? Seems simple, the BoD out coz they are sh!t! Not so simple tho as has been pointed out on this thread...what board members for a start. It's clear there are some who are prepared to put their hands in their pockets who should not be tarred with the same brush as certain others.

 

2) Once said unwanted board members have been identified, how do we go about getting them out? Again seems simple, protest! Aye right, with Propco in action and the 2 main BoD members fans seem most angry with having a stake in that, they will be going nowhere and with our dwindling fanbase (and the percentage of those who may be against protest) how influencial will a protest be?

 

3) If said protest actually works and the BoD members who are no longer required by the fans actually leave, how does that help Partick Thistle? Who replaces them and what makes them better suited than the current lot?

 

4) If said board members are replaced by other, more suitable, 'Thistle-minded' businessmen (remember non-PTFC board members currently on the Propco BoD are 'Thistle-minded'), will we then be in a better financial position and if so, how has this came about?

 

I'm not arguing against protest, or for the BoD, but we are in danger of imploding if we go into a protest type situation with a 'mob mentality', we would need to be crystal clear on what we want, why we want it, how we can get it and how it will benfit the Club in the ultimate aim of finacial stability.

 

Knee-jerk reactions are not what is called for imo...that said, there seems to me to be an awful lot of Thistle fans who stay away in protest at the current BoD and state of the Club. So if there is some sort of organised protest then surely our attendances would increase big time during that spell if they turned up in protest rather than staying away in protest.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Steven H

[Yellow & Redneck]

I'm glad for the first time ever that a reasonable number of fans are taking an ACTIVE role in trying to remove the board, even if its just a chant(Its a start). Crying about it ain't gonna help, actions speak louder than words etc etc...

 

This current Board are hopeless, the aim is to avoid a repeat of Save The Jags, that's what Cowans main objective is, however we have members of the board using club finances as a personal piggy bank*.

 

I question the integrity of any board, who's main objective is simply just to avoid bankruptcy. It shows a lack of ambition and a lack of motivation. Cowan and Co, have no interest in the club, its 100% completely a business run operation, a business that is failing.

 

And in 2 years time when Partick Thistle FC no longer exist, Jags fans will be scratching there hind end, saying to themselves, "why didn't I do something about it when i had the opportunity..."

 

The BoD must go, as must McCall. We need a complete overhaul and a complete restructure, or we will head down the same slippery road as did the likes of Clydebank. That may mean that we will be playing in the 2nd/3rd Division in a few years time, it will more than certainly mean part time football, but it will however bring prosperity for the future, and future financial security...the current administration dont!

 

However the fans are the only ones that can do it!

 

REVOLUTION! REVOLUTION! REVOLT!

 

*PTFC Accounts Year Ending 31st May 09 (Page 13)

[Jaggernaut]

I'm glad for the first time ever that a reasonable number of fans are taking an ACTIVE role in trying to remove the board, even if its just a chant(Its a start). Crying about it ain't gonna help, actions speak louder than words etc etc...

 

This current Board are hopeless, the aim is to avoid a repeat of Save The Jags, that's what Cowans main objective is, however we have members of the board using club finances as a personal piggy bank.

 

I question the integrity of any board, who's main objective is simply just to avoid bankruptcy. It shows a lack of ambition and a lack of motivation. Cowan and Co, have no interest in the club, its 100% completely a business run operation, a business that is failing.

 

And in 2 years time when Partick Thistle FC no longer exist, Jags fans will be scratching there hind end, saying to themselves, "why didn't I do something about it when i had the opportunity..."

 

The BoD must go, as must McCall. We need a complete overhaul and a complete restructure, or we will head down the same slippery road as did the likes of Clydebank. That may mean that we will be playing in the 2nd/3rd Division in a few years time, it will more than certainly mean part time football, but it will however bring prosperity for the future, and future financial security...the current administration dont!

 

However the fans are the only ones that can do it!

 

REVOLUTION! REVOLUTION! REVOLT!

 

*PTFC Accounts Year Ending 31st May 09 (Page 13)

I fail to see how that stacks up, I'm afraid.

[jaggybunnet]

It'll take a lot more effort than that, but before ANY effort can be put in there must be a plan. No-one seems to be coming up with one of those.

 

Questions to ask yourself (if you are in agreement with regards to protest type action):

 

1) What do you want and why? Seems simple, the BoD out coz they are sh!t! Not so simple tho as has been pointed out on this thread...what board members for a start. It's clear there are some who are prepared to put their hands in their pockets who should not be tarred with the same brush as certain others.

 

2) Once said unwanted board members have been identified, how do we go about getting them out? Again seems simple, protest! Aye right, with Propco in action and the 2 main BoD members fans seem most angry with having a stake in that, they will be going nowhere and with our dwindling fanbase (and the percentage of those who may be against protest) how influencial will a protest be?

 

3) If said protest actually works and the BoD members who are no longer required by the fans actually leave, how does that help Partick Thistle? Who replaces them and what makes them better suited than the current lot?

 

4) If said board members are replaced by other, more suitable, 'Thistle-minded' businessmen (remember non-PTFC board members currently on the Propco BoD are 'Thistle-minded'), will we then be in a better financial position and if so, how has this came about?

 

I'm not arguing against protest, or for the BoD, but we are in danger of imploding if we go into a protest type situation with a 'mob mentality', we would need to be crystal clear on what we want, why we want it, how we can get it and how it will benfit the Club in the ultimate aim of finacial stability.

 

Knee-jerk reactions are not what is called for imo...that said, there seems to me to be an awful lot of Thistle fans who stay away in protest at the current BoD and state of the Club. So if there is some sort of organised protest then surely our attendances would increase big time during that spell if they turned up in protest rather than staying away in protest.

 

 

 

put (obviously) far better than i could have, thank you

[chapwithwings]

It'll take a lot more effort than that, but before ANY effort can be put in there must be a plan. No-one seems to be coming up with one of those.

 

Questions to ask yourself (if you are in agreement with regards to protest type action):

 

1) What do you want and why? Seems simple, the BoD out coz they are sh!t! Not so simple tho as has been pointed out on this thread...what board members for a start. It's clear there are some who are prepared to put their hands in their pockets who should not be tarred with the same brush as certain others.

 

To an extent that's true. However, the whole regime is symptomatic of the malaise wrecking the club. If there ARE directors who are prepared to fund the club out their own pockets, they should be welcomed back once the future of the club is secured. But trying to pick off individual members of the board is dangerous. It must be, initially, all out.

 

2) Once said unwanted board members have been identified, how do we go about getting them out? Again seems simple, protest! Aye right, with Propco in action and the 2 main BoD members fans seem most angry with having a stake in that, they will be going nowhere and with our dwindling fanbase (and the percentage of those who may be against protest) how influencial will a protest be?

 

 

3) If said protest actually works and the BoD members who are no longer required by the fans actually leave, how does that help Partick Thistle? Who replaces them and what makes them better suited than the current lot?

 

These two questions are intrinsically linked. It may be simply a case of embarrassing them to the point of forcing them out. But, as you say, Propco makes things very difficult. They own a stake in Firhill above and beyond their stake in the club, so even a new regime will be forced to deal with them. But Propco is such a busted flush anyway that it may not be wholly relevant in the short term.

 

4) If said board members are replaced by other, more suitable, 'Thistle-minded' businessmen (remember non-PTFC board members currently on the Propco BoD are 'Thistle-minded'), will we then be in a better financial position and if so, how has this came about?

 

The problem, at a base level, is the fiscal and upper management of the club. We only have the BoD's word for it that there's no investors out there. Lets not forget their predecessor in the boardroom's comments about refusing to sell to some curry shop owner. It may be there HAVE been offers that have just not met the valuation they place on their own shares, or add conditions they don't wish to meet.

 

This is an area I would prefer to see the Trust actively pursuing. If their aim is the best interests of Thistle, it's now increasingly clear that the best interests of Thistle are served by removing the current board and attracting new investment in the club - no mean feat in a recession, yet both bigger and smaller clubs than us have managed it successfully recently.

 

I'm not arguing against protest, or for the BoD, but we are in danger of imploding if we go into a protest type situation with a 'mob mentality', we would need to be crystal clear on what we want, why we want it, how we can get it and how it will benfit the Club in the ultimate aim of finacial stability.

 

Knee-jerk reactions are not what is called for imo...that said, there seems to me to be an awful lot of Thistle fans who stay away in protest at the current BoD and state of the Club. So if there is some sort of organised protest then surely our attendances would increase big time during that spell if they turned up in protest rather than staying away in protest.

 

Possibly, but if it attracts the attention of the media, and thus focus away from Pravda Mitchell's latest dictations from the boardroom and more towards the current plight of the club, so much the better. Once eyes are on the board, and the fans' voice is heard by a wider audience than just the forums, it's a lot harder for them to wriggle out or fob people off.

[steven18313]

I have always been on the mindset that things will get better and if we give the team and management another season they will finally click into place and start producing the results and performances on the pitch, but as of late I find it harder and harder to try and defend what is currently being offered up.

 

It’s easy to say that all clubs are in a difficult position with the current economical climate, but how can all other teams in the division manage to strengthen their team, when surely the monies we manage to bring into the club must be at least on a par with them?!

 

There are just far too many unanswered questions like what happened to the transfer money for Harkins and twaddle, how can we still be in so much debit when we were told that through the propco deal the clubs overall debit had been halved. With the deal we have with the Glasgow Warriors, surely that must stand us in a better position than most Scottish league teams through the extra revenue?! I can't say I have a plan to make things change for the better but what I do know is that change is required.

 

As for the manager, just don’t understand the tactics, if it’s now taking him this long to realise that we can’t win the 1st division playing 'pretty football' then there is something seriously wrong for a start we don’t have the skill within the team to play that sort of football, time to take it back to basics, build from the defence forward and for the love of god extra hours on the training pitch doing shooting practice. I suppose i shouldn't be surprised with McCall, after all he is the man that said Hodge would turn out to be a better player than Harkins

[Steven H]

To an extent that's true. However, the whole regime is symptomatic of the malaise wrecking the club. If there ARE directors who are prepared to fund the club out their own pockets, they should be welcomed back once the future of the club is secured. But trying to pick off individual members of the board is dangerous. It must be, initially, all out.

 

There are Directors funding aspects of the Club out their own pockets tho, IIRC one paid a players wages last season and another is paying the wages of a player this season. If you were these guys and a fans revolt removed you from your position what would you do when the same fans later came to you and said "we didn't really want you to go, can you come back please?"? If it is 'All Out' then it would need to remain All Out, and imo that's simply not fair!

 

These two questions are intrinsically linked. It may be simply a case of embarrassing them to the point of forcing them out. But, as you say, Propco makes things very difficult. They own a stake in Firhill above and beyond their stake in the club, so even a new regime will be forced to deal with them. But Propco is such a busted flush anyway that it may not be wholly relevant in the short term.

 

Propco is relevant in the short, medium and long-term (if we have a long-term), there's no getting past it. It needs to make Partick Thistle somewhere in the region of £1m profit to pay off the debt (maybe more depending on how much debt we are in now) and that's over and above the £900k, or whatever it is our 50% is worth, that funds the new Club facilities. But Propco will see potential investors say "no thanks" as there is very little left to invest in.

 

The problem, at a base level, is the fiscal and upper management of the club. We only have the BoD's word for it that there's no investors out there. Lets not forget their predecessor in the boardroom's comments about refusing to sell to some curry shop owner. It may be there HAVE been offers that have just not met the valuation they place on their own shares, or add conditions they don't wish to meet.

 

I didn't think the current lot were interested in leaving, just getting new investment (maybe the two are actually the same )...either way there are a lot of ifs buts and maybes in this part. These need to be smoothed out before we can think about a removal of the BoD through protests, unless people are expecting the current incumbants to keep their shares yet step aside to let others run the Club they effectively own a part of.

 

This is an area I would prefer to see the Trust actively pursuing. If their aim is the best interests of Thistle, it's now increasingly clear that the best interests of Thistle are served by removing the current board and attracting new investment in the club - no mean feat in a recession, yet both bigger and smaller clubs than us have managed it successfully recently.

 

Reverse that...1st find the investors, then remove the BoD, then let the investors invest (again investing might be the same as removing the BoD I don't know about all that stuff). By having the investors in place ready to move forces the current BoD members hands a bit. Like you say tho, finding these investors is no mean feat which leads us back to questions 3 and 4

 

Possibly, but if it attracts the attention of the media, and thus focus away from Pravda Mitchell's latest dictations from the boardroom and more towards the current plight of the club, so much the better. Once eyes are on the board, and the fans' voice is heard by a wider audience than just the forums, it's a lot harder for them to wriggle out or fob people off.

I agree entirely and this is precisely why I asked the questions in the first place. In order to get the backing of enough fans to make a differencen there has to be a structure to what is being done. We would need the majority of the fans toback any protest and actively participate in it...I cant see that being achieved therefore the protest becomes a futile waste of time.

 

None of this answers the original questions tho, so back to square one...what's the plan??

 

Edited to remove names, annonimity and all that

Edited August 8, 2010 by Steven H

[Willjag]

Maybe if just two or three moved on, there would be space for new people to come in and have a say in the running of the Club in return for their investment? Fresh money and fresh ideas are what's needed. Is that an achievable 'plan'?

[northernsoul]

Certain members of the board (at the earliest) won't be gone until their Propco plan is completed. In saying that though, I expect them to have the cheek to announce that they're still the men for the job after that. When that happens there is only one inevitable route for the Club.

 

Certain members have already shown they are not capable of running a football club competently and they bring nothing to the Club. By "nothing" I mean two things, expertise and money.

[Steven H]

Maybe if just two or three moved on, there would be space for new people to come in and have a say in the running of the Club in return for their investment? Fresh money and fresh ideas are what's needed. Is that an achievable 'plan'?

 

No but it is an achievable outcome

[The Terminator]

None of this answers the original questions tho, so back to square one...what's the plan??

But it's not the fans' position to plan. The fans are like a judge, not a governor. We are supposed to point to the failings and applaud when things are going the way they should be. To point to an extreme example, Manchester United and the Glazers. They want the Glazers out, they protest. They don't make excuses about what happens next, that is for the board to handle, not the fans. We can influence what happens next in some way but to think that we can somehow "plan" our way to a better future is nonsense. Planning doesn't make headlines. Protesting does. Thanks to out lack of action, no-one outside our little Thistle bubble will know the names Allan Cowan or Tom Hughes and will just see us as being the way that others in this city want us to be, sh1te by nature, not because of a plane wreckage of a board.

[Steven H]

But it's not the fans' position to plan. The fans are like a judge, not a governor. We are supposed to point to the failings and applaud when things are going the way they should be. To point to an extreme example, Manchester United and the Glazers. They want the Glazers out, they protest. They don't make excuses about what happens next, that is for the board to handle, not the fans. We can influence what happens next in some way but to think that we can somehow "plan" our way to a better future is nonsense. Planning doesn't make headlines. Protesting does. Thanks to out lack of action, no-one outside our little Thistle bubble will know the names Allan Cowan or Tom Hughes and will just see us as being the way that others in this city want us to be, sh1te by nature, not because of a plane wreckage of a board.

 

To think you can just protest and expect things to change is 'just nonsense'. When I say plan, I mean plan your protest not plan the future of the Club...that will be a job for those who take over should any protest be successful. See questions 1 to 4

[BermondseyBoy]

We need to get outside the front door pre dundee

[Steven H]

We need to get outside the front door pre dundee

 

And there it is, the knee-jerk mob mentality I was talking about. You may be right but first we need to be clear on why? What we want to achieve and how we intend to achieve it... otherwise a lot of fans will not back it, myself included. I have no answers and it appears no one on here has any they're willing to share!

[yoda-jag]

But it's not the fans' position to plan. The fans are like a judge, not a governor. We are supposed to point to the failings and applaud when things are going the way they should be. To point to an extreme example, Manchester United and the Glazers. They want the Glazers out, they protest. They don't make excuses about what happens next, that is for the board to handle, not the fans. We can influence what happens next in some way but to think that we can somehow "plan" our way to a better future is nonsense. Planning doesn't make headlines. Protesting does. Thanks to out lack of action, no-one outside our little Thistle bubble will know the names Allan Cowan or Tom Hughes and will just see us as being the way that others in this city want us to be, sh1te by nature, not because of a plane wreckage of a board.

 

 

Wise words.

[The Incredible Adam Spark]

If we're serious about wanting to push through radical change then it wouldn't be a bad idea to speak to the guy who led the Stirling Albion buy out - who I believe is a Thistle fan - for starters.

 

That's assuming there are people out there who feel motivated enough to mobilise the fan base.

[yoda-jag]

To an extent that's true. However, the whole regime is symptomatic of the malaise wrecking the club. If there ARE directors who are prepared to fund the club out their own pockets, they should be welcomed back once the future of the club is secured. But trying to pick off individual members of the board is dangerous. It must be, initially, all out.

 

 

 

These two questions are intrinsically linked. It may be simply a case of embarrassing them to the point of forcing them out. But, as you say, Propco makes things very difficult. They own a stake in Firhill above and beyond their stake in the club, so even a new regime will be forced to deal with them. But Propco is such a busted flush anyway that it may not be wholly relevant in the short term.

 

 

 

The problem, at a base level, is the fiscal and upper management of the club. We only have the BoD's word for it that there's no investors out there. Lets not forget their predecessor in the boardroom's comments about refusing to sell to some curry shop owner. It may be there HAVE been offers that have just not met the valuation they place on their own shares, or add conditions they don't wish to meet.

 

This is an area I would prefer to see the Trust actively pursuing. If their aim is the best interests of Thistle, it's now increasingly clear that the best interests of Thistle are served by removing the current board and attracting new investment in the club - no mean feat in a recession, yet both bigger and smaller clubs than us have managed it successfully recently.

 

 

 

Possibly, but if it attracts the attention of the media, and thus focus away from Pravda Mitchell's latest dictations from the boardroom and more towards the current plight of the club, so much the better. Once eyes are on the board, and the fans' voice is heard by a wider audience than just the forums, it's a lot harder for them to wriggle out or fob people off.

 

 

 

More Wise Words.

[Junior]

The ManUtd situation is that there are loads of groups working together , protesting at games etc and another group working on sorting out funding to buy the Glazers out (the Red Knights they are calling themselves and are fans or linked via fans and most if not all have an interest in making some cash out of this which they will , its not an altruistic venture on their part)

 

Saying its not the fans position to plan is a massive cop out , basically saying you wanna yell and scream but you arent gonna do anything about it. Im sure any of the board are not gonna walk away with a few people yelling at them. Every other club that has been able to get change at their club has had financial backing to do it and a plan from the fans on how they do this. Look at Stirling Albion since they are the first group to pull off proper fan ownership. They had a plan and saw it through.

 

FWIW , I think we would need to look at 3 things

 

- setting the debts to the bank (cover any guarantees held etc) - approx £1m

- buying out the directors - feck knows what that would take as some will not walk away without their investment being paid back

- buying back the whole ground - again approx £1m

 

So at a rough estimate from past years accounts it may take as much as £3m to do everything on that list. Not a chance in hell any fans group can raise that cash by ourselves , if people wanna go down this route then they will need outside funding. Whether thats trying to find a partner with a property company who want to buy the whole of Firhill and are willing to look at providing land elsewhere to allow us to relocate to a new stadium which is a more realistic size (hell knows where that would be). but its an option that can be looked at by better qualified people.

 

How do we do this ? **** knows but I would suggest that the Trust call an open meeting for all fans to discuss the situation at the club and then take the concerns to the club in a formal manner as a major shareholder , but this is where my knowledge of this stuff gets lost and confused as its years since I dealt with this area But the board will have to deal properly with formal complaints raised in this manner (I think so anyway ) This link (Removing a director) seems to give some decent information on removing directors from companies if you can prove their conduct has been detrimental to the business.

 

I have a feeling this is gonna get very ugly for the club in a very short space of time if results don't improve quickly. Even if results do improve it only papers over the cracks in the club that need to be fixed

[Willjag]

I have a feeling this is gonna get very ugly for the club in a very short space of time if results don't improve quickly. Even if results do improve it only papers over the cracks in the club that need to be fixed

They'll just sack the manager, and put the Club into further debt, just as long as they can hang onto their seat on the Board.

[Junior]

They'll just sack the manager, and put the Club into further debt, just as long as they can hang onto their seat on the Board.

 

They cant though , the banks are calling the shots now for most clubs in scotland and will not allow any further credit. So unless some directors finances that then IMO sacking McCall will not happen any time soon.

[Milo]

I've just heard on the radio that North Korea's manager, following their disappointing World Cup results, has been stripped of his job and is now a bricklayer. Hmmmmmmmmmmm? I wonder....................................?

[Phoenix]

The ManUtd situation is that there are loads of groups working together , protesting at games etc and another group working on sorting out funding to buy the Glazers out (the Red Knights they are calling themselves and are fans or linked via fans and most if not all have an interest in making some cash out of this which they will , its not an altruistic venture on their part)

 

Saying its not the fans position to plan is a massive cop out , basically saying you wanna yell and scream but you arent gonna do anything about it. Im sure any of the board are not gonna walk away with a few people yelling at them. Every other club that has been able to get change at their club has had financial backing to do it and a plan from the fans on how they do this. Look at Stirling Albion since they are the first group to pull off proper fan ownership. They had a plan and saw it through.

 

FWIW , I think we would need to look at 3 things

 

- setting the debts to the bank (cover any guarantees held etc) - approx £1m

- buying out the directors - feck knows what that would take as some will not walk away without their investment being paid back

- buying back the whole ground - again approx £1m

 

So at a rough estimate from past years accounts it may take as much as £3m to do everything on that list. Not a chance in hell any fans group can raise that cash by ourselves , if people wanna go down this route then they will need outside funding. Whether thats trying to find a partner with a property company who want to buy the whole of Firhill and are willing to look at providing land elsewhere to allow us to relocate to a new stadium which is a more realistic size (hell knows where that would be). but its an option that can be looked at by better qualified people.

 

How do we do this ? **** knows but I would suggest that the Trust call an open meeting for all fans to discuss the situation at the club and then take the concerns to the club in a formal manner as a major shareholder , but this is where my knowledge of this stuff gets lost and confused as its years since I dealt with this area But the board will have to deal properly with formal complaints raised in this manner (I think so anyway ) This link (Removing a director) seems to give some decent information on removing directors from companies if you can prove their conduct has been detrimental to the business.

 

I have a feeling this is gonna get very ugly for the club in a very short space of time if results don't improve quickly. Even if results do improve it only papers over the cracks in the club that need to be fixed

 

And there is the major problem. The Trust were unwilling to go against the BOD when they were suggesting selling the ground to themselves and their friends. The Trust have no wish to upset the BOD and instead of being a voice for the fans have become part of the problem. The fact that the Trust Board rep allowed Propco to go through without even telling the members of the Trust (Confidentiality clause ) shows why the Trust should not be on the BOD.

The Trust has lost sight of what a majority of the fans think and are now seen on a par with the BOD when it comes to trusting them.