Steven H Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) I know there are a few threads on the go already but I feel this topic needs a thread of it's own. It kinda goes over old ground, but old ground that hasn't yet been clarified. Firstly, the lyrics to some of our songs...I'm speaking from my own perspective and understanding so feel free to tell me I'm wrong. The song is We're Comin Down The Road and it really irritates me to hear Jags fans singing We'll Be Comin...that point is factual and I for one will not budge on it. This one is a bit more contentious..the We'll Score When We Want song is new and I like it a lot, but instead of We Are Partick Thistle, We'll Score When We Want I think it would be best to leave it at We Are Thistle...We'll Score When We Want. 3 reasons, 1 it rolls off the tongue easier, 2 it informs the meedja in clear terms that Thistle should not be dropped when they report on us (which I don't expect them to take heed of, but hey) and 3 it pays homage to this forum . The You're Not Very Good song is another that I like a lot but everyone must have noticed how when we get to the In Fact Yer F***in Shite bit (where it get's faster with everyone struggling to say In Fact Yer F***in In Fact Yer F***in bit) it kinda dies...well I have been singing You Are F***in You Are F**in You Are F***ckin Shite for a while now at it fits better, flows off the tongue and doesn't sound like a mumbled rabble. AGGRO...not Shed Boys!!!!! (would be very interested in the general consensus on this one). Now to another couple of contentious songs. Hullo Hullo, How Do You Do and the Jackie McNamara song. We all know the Hullo Hullo song is in fact anti-sectarian so I don't see a problem with us singing it, except I haven't sang the last line for a while, don't want to be made an example of and don't want any of my fellow fans to be made an example of either. The use of the word Tim (given my understanding of the origin of the phrase...and the fact Celtic fans refer to themselves as Tims in a song, i.e. "The Glasgow Celtic, The Tim Malloys") does not hold sectarian connotations. So I think some sort of dialogue needs to take place between onethistle and the sectarian Police in order to get clarity on both these songs...by dialogue I mean proper discussion where we can explain our logic behind both songs rather than a simple "Are they sectarian in your eyes?" "Aye they are sonny and you'll be risking arrest if you sing them" sorta thing. This is something I would be willing to take on myself under the onethistle banner if no-one else is up for it. None of this is, or should be seen as, criticism...just my view on some things. I would appreciate the viewpoint of others on the things I mention here. (we can eliminate the Hullo Hullo song from the 'debate' I guess as most of us are singing from the same hymn sheet on that one). The aim? Obviously to gain clarity on the 'possible sectarian songs' and to have us all having a general consensus of agreement regarding the other songs I mentioned. Yesterday was brilliant and will only get better imo, clarity in these areas can help with the improvement. Cheers Edited August 12, 2012 by Steven H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) I know there are a few threads on the go already but I feel this topic needs a thread of it's own. It kinda goes over old ground, but old ground that hasn't yet been clarified. Firstly, the lyrics to some of our songs...I'm speaking from my own perspective and understanding so feel free to tell me I'm wrong. The song is We're Comin Down The Road and it really irritates me to hear Jags fans singing We'll Be Comin...that point is factual and I for one will not budge on it. This one is a bit more contentious..the We'll Score When We Want song is new and I like it a lot, but instead of We Are Partick Thistle, We'll Score When We Want I think it would be best to leave it at We Are Thistle...We'll Score When We Want. 3 reasons, 1 it rolls off the tongue easier, 2 it informs the meedja in clear terms that Thistle should not be dropped when they report on us (which I don't expect them to take heed of, but hey) and 3 it pays homage to this forum . The You're Not Very Good song is another that I like a lot but everyone must have noticed how when we get to the In Fact Yer F***in Shite bit (where it get's faster with everyone struggling to say In Fact Yer F***in In Fact Yer F***in bit) it kinda dies...well I have been singing You Are F***in You Are F**in You Are F***ckin Shite for a while now at it fits better, flows off the tongue and doesn't sound like a mumbled rabble. AGGRO...not Shed Boys!!!!! (would be very interested in the general consensus on this one). Now to another couple of contentious songs. Hullo Hullo, How Do You Do and the Jackie McNamara song. We all know the Hullo Hullo song is in fact anti-sectarian so I don't see a problem with us singing it, except I haven't sang the last line for a while, don't want to be made an example of and don't want any of my fellow fans to be made an example of either. The use of the word Tim (given my understanding of the origin of the phrase...and the fact Celtic fans refer to themselves as Tims in a song, i.e. "The Glasgow Celtic, The Tim Malloys") does not hold sectarian connotations. So I think some sort of dialogue needs to take place between onethistle and the sectarian Police in order to get clarity on both these songs...by dialogue I mean proper discussion where we can explain our logic behind both songs rather than a simple "Are they sectarian in your eyes?" "Aye they are sonny and you'll be risking arrest if you sing them" sorta thing. This is something I would be willing to take on myself under the onethistle banner if no-one else is up for it. None of this is, or should be seen as, criticism...just my view on some things. I would appreciate the viewpoint of others on the things I mention here. (we can eliminate the Hullo Hullo song from the 'debate' I guess as most of us are singing from the same hymn sheet on that one). The aim? Obviously to gain clarity on the 'possible sectarian songs' and to have us all having a general consensus of agreement regarding the other songs I mentioned. Yesterday was brilliant and will only get better imo, clarity in these areas can help with the improvement. Cheers Stephen The guidelines on what or what is not or is not "sectarian or abusive" is described in the guidelines from the Lord Cheif Advocate as below. "Expressing hatred of, or stirring up hatred against an individual or group of persons based on their membership (or presumed membership) of a religious group, a social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation, a group defined by reference to colour, race, nationality, ethnic or national origins, sexual orientation, transgender identity or disability" In addition if a "reasonable person" feels you are either being abusive or religously intolerant they can make a compliant to the Police and you may be arrested. We have lots of Songs - simply aviod the ones that have any religion in them please.Its not worth it for our fans or Club. The New Shed as you saw is under close scrutiny we are being cut a lot of slack ,very few rules or barriers apply PLEASE aviod anything that will have negative reports going back to the Police HQ Pretty Sure being a Tractor Driver isnt covered in any of the above Groupings so fill yer boots Edited August 12, 2012 by Jordanhill Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Stephen The guidelines on what or what is not or is not "sectarian or abusive" is described in the guidelines from the Lord Cheif Advocate as below. "Expressing hatred of, or stirring up hatred against an individual or group of persons based on their membership (or presumed membership) of a religious group, a social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation, a group defined by reference to colour, race, nationality, ethnic or national origins, sexual orientation, transgender identity or disability" In addition if a "reasonable person" feels you are either being abusive or religously intolerant they can make a compliant to the Police and you may be arrested. We have lots of Songs - simply aviod the ones that have any religion in them please.Its not worth it for our fans or Club. The New Shed as you saw is under close scrutiny we are being cut a lot of slack ,very few rules or barriers apply PLEASE aviod anything that will have negative reports going back to the Police HQ Pretty Sure being a Tractor Driver isnt covered in any of the above Groupings so fill yer boots What about Falkirk fans (or any other Clubs fans)? People with ginger hair? Folk who wear peach t-shirts? There is no hatred in the Jackie McNamara song...the group of people refered to as tims refer to themselves as tims and, having sought the view of Celtic fan friends (and other Jaggy friends sought the views of their Celtic fan friends too) not one of them takes offence to it. So who deems it offensive and fuelled by hatred? Big grey area, that's all Im saying. I continued singing the original line to the Jackie McNamara song even after the police filmed us as Im pretty sure I could justify my actions in a court of law...the hullo hullo song is a different matter entirely tho. If tim was used followed by the word ******* for example, then yes it shows it as 'inciting hatred' but I don't agree that our use of that word in this song falls into the remit of "Expressing hatred of, or stirring up hatred against an individual or group of persons..." Id rather see a return of the Tractor Driver ending too, but I feel the other one works just as well Edited August 12, 2012 by Steven H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Stand Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 What about : "You're gonny get you f***in' head kicked in" or "You're going home in a f***in' ambulance" Maybe just against Airdrie? At least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydebankJag Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Celtic FC actively sponsor and promote a youth choir called the ThaiTims - is that sectarian? Edited August 12, 2012 by ClydebankJag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 What about Falkirk fans (or any other Clubs fans)? People with ginger hair? Folk who wear peach t-shirts? There is no hatred in the Jackie McNamara song...the group of people refered to as tims refer to themselves as tims and, having sought the view of Celtic fan friends (and other Jaggy friends sought the views of their Celtic fan friends too) not one of them takes offence to it. So who deems it offensive and fuelled by hatred? Big grey area, that's all Im saying. I continued singing the original line to the Jackie McNamara song even after the police filmed us as Im pretty sure I could justify my actions in a court of law...the hullo hullo song is a different matter entirely tho. If tim was used followed by the word ******* for example, then yes it shows it as 'inciting hatred' but I don't agree that our use of that word in this song falls into the remit of "Expressing hatred of, or stirring up hatred against an individual or group of persons..." Id rather see a return of the Tractor Driver ending too, but I feel the other one works just as well Stephen Mate ,I dont make the rules - thought it would be helpful to have the actual guidelines so there is no questions as to what is and what is not acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordanhill Jag Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 What about : "You're gonny get you f***in' head kicked in" or "You're going home in a f***in' ambulance" Maybe just against Airdrie? At least. The good old 70s chants - back in the day when Football Aggro was the real deal . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Stephen Mate ,I dont make the rules - thought it would be helpful to have the actual guidelines so there is no questions as to what is and what is not acceptable. I know you don't Jim and I was aware of the guidelines before you posted them (isn't it an actual law now tho?). Unfortunately it is those guidelines which lead me to ask for clarity as there are questions as to what is acceptable and what's not. The jackie mcnamara song doesn't even come close to meeting the criteria imo. There were other more discriminatory songs/chants on Saturday than that one yet the camaras never came out for any of them...For example, does 'Get Yer Tits Out For The Lads' chant have any place in a modern football ground? Where is the line that must not be crossed? Are we no longer allowed to sing Oh We Hate Airdrie and We Hate Airdrie anymore? Not having a go at you at all Jim, just saying that there ARE questions to be asked because if the Jackie Mac song comes into the remit of this new legislation then most football songs/chants also will. Only in Scotland would we be having this discussion . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryHell Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Big grey area, that's all Im saying. I continued singing the original line to the Jackie McNamara song even after the police filmed us as Im pretty sure I could justify my actions in a court of law...the hullo hullo song is a different matter entirely tho. We can argue on here all we want about whether these songs are sectarian or not, but while we are being filmed and recorded we are going to have to think about the bigger picture. You know that if ever any of us are arrested the only thing that will be reported in the media is 'Partick Thistle fan(s) arrested for sectarian singing'. It's pretty sh*tty, but the press are desperate to prove that it's not just an OF problem. Your defence will never be reported and if you are acquitted it will either be ignored or reported with moral indignation. Either way, you and the club will be made an example of. It's just not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted August 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 We can argue on here all we want about whether these songs are sectarian or not, but while we are being filmed and recorded we are going to have to think about the bigger picture. You know that if ever any of us are arrested the only thing that will be reported in the media is 'Partick Thistle fan(s) arrested for sectarian singing'. It's pretty sh*tty, but the press are desperate to prove that it's not just an OF problem. Your defence will never be reported and if you are acquitted it will either be ignored or reported with moral indignation. Either way, you and the club will be made an example of. It's just not worth it. Which is why I would like clarity on the matter. I dont sing the last line of the Hullo Hullo song anymore for that very reason but Id like clarity on that one way or another too. The simple thing to do would be to change the words of the Jackie McNamara song like potty trained and Ian_Mac tried to do yesterday, but the simple response to that is why should we? So we can conform to what exactly? Just do as we're told like good little boys and girls because the old firm have caused the production of some half assed legislation that seems to do nogthing but muddy the waters for those of us who are proud of the fact we are not sectarian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 If anything the jackie mac song should end... He used to play for Celtic, but he's alright now. Much better. When I spoke to the police at half time there was no agro, he just basically said... Look, all it takes is for one person to raise a complaint, and it gets investigated, so best to stay clear for yours and the clubs benefit... If the boy in the peach shirt had been in a right stinker, he could easily have complained to "teach us a lesson"... He didn't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watson Towers Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 ... Id rather see a return of the Tractor Driver ending too, but I feel the other one works just as well My recollection is that that song - and it is an absolute belter - was originally sung against Kily and then Falkirk in about 1991 or 1992, but the "alternative" ending came in a season or two later when playing Rangers and Celtic. Don't really approve of forum threads defining canon on these matters, as songs ought to just kinda emerge - but for what it's worth I stick by the above: "tractor" for everyone else, "fn w'nker" for the old firm. Unless v. Arbroath, when it ought to be "sail a trawler" More generally, the very fact that we are again discussing songs is a tribute to what a success the New Shed was yesterday - as soon as I can ditch the weans I'll see you all there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potty trained Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Surely everyone should be classed as ******... With only those dwellers of rural towns classed as tractor drivers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Leitch Loyal Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) Did you know that, legally, if you insult a member of the CofE you can still be beheaded. Let's try "If you hate the Church of England clap your hands" and see what happens. You first........... Edited August 13, 2012 by Sam Leitch Loyal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colognejag Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Thistle fans a few years back at Somerset Park: "What's it like to milk a cow?" That chant still makes me smile..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Leitch Loyal Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Did you know that, legally, if you insult a member of the CofE you can still be beheaded. Let's try "If you hate the Church of England clap your hands" and see what happens. You first........... Hate to quote my own post but I just thought of the away fans replying with "You're gonna get your f*****g heads chopped off". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicofan Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Hate to quote my own post but I just thought of the away fans replying with "You're gonna get your f*****g heads chopped off". I wouldnt advise this Ian Brown said this to an air stewardess on a plane and got 6 months in strangeways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Steven H Tough to answer everything but I'll do my best. Bear in mind this is just my opinion We're Coming Down The Road - I totally agree with you on that one. It irritates me to hear the tartan army version being sung, but I put it down to youth and inexperience, something that can hopefully be put right. We score when we want - I actually prefer singing Partick Thistle - I guess when it's a brand new song the majority rules! We are the Firhill AGGRO - Again I would tend to agree with you on that one The "sectarian" issue - very, very tricky and frustrating, I touched upon it in another thread. It's an absolute disgrace that we are being investigated and monitored for sectarian singing. A total joke. However, we are where we are. And we need to make sure that the club doesn't get singled out and punished for our actions. I am going to suggest that we seek clarity on what we can and can't sing. The authorities are making things extremely difficult for us, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uberteeb Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Leave Hello Hello as is, we have been through this before numerous times, it's fine. As for the McNamara song, "used to play for Celtic" actually fits in better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Steven H Tough to answer everything but I'll do my best. Bear in mind this is just my opinion We're Coming Down The Road - I totally agree with you on that one. It irritates me to hear the tartan army version being sung, but I put it down to youth and inexperience, something that can hopefully be put right. We score when we want - I actually prefer singing Partick Thistle - I guess when it's a brand new song the majority rules! We are the Firhill AGGRO - Again I would tend to agree with you on that one The "sectarian" issue - very, very tricky and frustrating, I touched upon it in another thread. It's an absolute disgrace that we are being investigated and monitored for sectarian singing. A total joke. However, we are where we are. And we need to make sure that the club doesn't get singled out and punished for our actions. I am going to suggest that we seek clarity on what we can and can't sing. The authorities are making things extremely difficult for us, that's for sure. Cheers Ian. Im only expressing my opinion too...not trying to define cannon on these things just trying to gauge opinion. The hullo Hullo and Jackie McNamara songs are really a point of principle and clarity on both would be good. I don't ever want to use the word Celtic in a Thistle song unless it is to define them as 'not very good' (or less polite words) so IMO it should remain as Tim as the person who came up with the line intended (first sung at the Ayr Utd away game at the tail end of last season). Incidentally, was in convo wi a Celtic fan today who said these exact words "I used to follow Thistle, the away days were magic, but Ive always been a tim really". Majority always rules Ian, and Im happy to go with the majority with new songs, but songs which are age old Jags songs should stay that way imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alx Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Thistle fans a few years back at Somerset Park: "What's it like to milk a cow?" That chant still makes me smile..! Amen brother! I was laughing for ages after that, that should deffo be brought back into the thistle canon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_mac Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Incidentally, was in convo wi a Celtic fan today who said these exact words "I used to follow Thistle, the away days were magic, but Ive always been a tim really". Uncanny. I met a lad who I used to go to games with up until 6/7 years recently. I asked him why he hadn't been to a game for a while and he informed me that he was now a Celtic fan! This is a lad who's dad is a jags man and who himself used to go RELIGIOUSLY home and away. I was speechless, to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryHell Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Leave Hello Hello as is, we have been through this before numerous times, it's fine. As for the McNamara song, "used to play for Celtic" actually fits in better. We have been thought it before, numerous times, but the truth is that these days the Police tend to crack down on songs with the words 'fu<k', 'pope' or 'queen' in them, more so songs with two or more of the aforementioned words. And these days, they've got proper legislation to back them up. If they objected to the JM song because it had 'tim' in it, they are obviously erring on the side of caution. The ' but we've been singing it for years' arguement isn't likely to get us far. It's purely a personal opinion, but I'd rather not be bringing my son (and when she's old enough, my daughter) to games where songs are sung with either 'pope' or 'queen' in them. Much as people would love me to explain it off by saying to him 'it's not the same as when THEY sing those words, when we do it it's political' I'd rather not. That said, if people were to 'seek clarity' and we we're given the nod then I guess I'd have to accept it. I would hope however that if we were told that our song fell the wrong side of acceptable, that we'd accept that as well and not risk harming our club, by continuing to sing It. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H Posted August 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) We have been thought it before, numerous times, but the truth is that these days the Police tend to crack down on songs with the words 'fu<k', 'pope' or 'queen' in them, more so songs with two or more of the aforementioned words. And these days, they've got proper legislation to back them up. If they objected to the JM song because it had 'tim' in it, they are obviously erring on the side of caution. The ' but we've been singing it for years' arguement isn't likely to get us far. It's purely a personal opinion, but I'd rather not be bringing my son (and when she's old enough, my daughter) to games where songs are sung with either 'pope' or 'queen' in them. Much as people would love me to explain it off by saying to him 'it's not the same as when THEY sing those words, when we do it it's political' I'd rather not. That said, if people were to 'seek clarity' and we we're given the nod then I guess I'd have to accept it. I would hope however that if we were told that our song fell the wrong side of acceptable, that we'd accept that as well and not risk harming our club, by continuing to sing It. I think there are 2 reason for us not singing the song anymore. 1) the bit of your quote Ive highlighted and 2) when Sevco and Cellic fans stop singing their bigoted songs (fat chance). It'll likely be scenario number 1 and many have stopped sining the last line just in case...but if it is deemed the wrong side of acceptable I will feel a sense of injustice because we all know it is anti sectariano. If the arsecheeks of Scottish football clean up their act then there is no need for the song. I find it a tad cringy when we sing it as soon as any club starts singing their own version of the Sevco Hullo Hullo song...it's only the Sevco version that is bigoted. Edited August 13, 2012 by Steven H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryHell Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Actually reading what the Police have said to Ian Mac et al on match day, makes me think that they won't actually act of their own accord - but if they receive a complaint, they will 'investigate' and are recording just in case. Is this a fair summary? It does however leave those that are singing in a precarious position - one week you could be having decent banter with the visiting support, the next week the same, but someone like Peachy or yon mad wummin decides to report us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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